2023 NBA Draft

[clyde21]

Whitmore shouldn't play at this point, neither should Smith Jr....and if I was DWH and was only getting 5 mins despite being the #1 recruit I'd gtfo and start training for the draft.

i'd add Baba Miller to this list too, no point in coming in half way thru the season on a crappy team tbh, low upside

[The-Power]

I can’t think of a guy to compare his current game too because the vision could be elite. Maybe a bigger Ty Jerome.

He's in the mold of Cade Cunningham, Dyson Daniels, Josh Giddey. He falls somewhere in between those players for each skill but the idea is that you get a wing-sized playmaker who can be a primary – or at worst secondary – playmaker and hold up on defense (and he may be on the upper end on that end along with Daniels) and score at least well enough to keep defenses honest (question mark for some of them). His profile clearly is in demand. The question is how much pressure he can put on defenses with his scoring to fully leverage his top-tier playmaking ability. If he proves to be a reliable shooter and good interior scorer, he's likely a top 3 pick. If he's only one of the two, he'll fall a bit and look more like a mid-lottery pick (depending on the rest of the class, of course). If he's neither, then he'll be closer to a late lottery pick. That's solely from my perspective, of course.

[The-Power]

Amen is way more tantalizing of a prospect then Sharpe

Is he really, though? With Sharpe you at least knew he had the shooting ability to fall back on if other parts of the game do not translate. Amen is a higher-risk pick (even as you could certainly argue that he's also higher-reward if he hits). Sharpe was also more than a full year younger when drafted, and who knows, if he had played in college he could have easily made a push for the top 5 (or he could have fallen further – both was realistically possible).

and NBA teams will have more to go on.

But is that a positive in this case? You argued that Sharpe wasn't hurt by sitting out and that this is why you don't believe that the league matters. But that's not the same, though, is it? Yes, you can play little or not at all and still be drafted high. Sharpe has shown that, Wiseman has shown that. But you can also come in with a lot of hype, highlight your weaknesses to scouts, and fall in the draft. Most recent examples: Jaden Hardy and Brandon Boston Jr.

So if scouts look at him play and see the same concerns that I do, him playing in what essentially is HS basketball against mostly younger players could very well hurt his stock. He will still have the ‘mystique’ factor more than most players, but at some point ‘mystique’ just turns into ‘risk’ when you do not show enough. If, for instance, he struggles to shoot the ball throughout the season, his stock could drop considerably.

[buzzkilloton]

A).

and NBA teams will have more to go on.

Sharpe had shooting to fall back on and Amen has generational athleticism. Sharpe is a good athlete esp vertically but Amen is like a WTF is this guy from the planet of earth type athlete. Amens size,versatility,IQ,playmaking, and motor should all translate very well to the NBA.

I think teams know hes not going to be able to shoot the 3pter just yet. I think more important for him is keeping the free throws % up. Hes currently at 86% on the season which wont hold but if he can stay 70%+ thats massive. Were not talking about Ben Simmons shooting here he can potentially turn the shooting around later. Him being in overtime elite hes likely being developed by meh coaches NBA coaches are going to love getting ahold of this guy.

[crows2]

I can’t think of a guy to compare his current game too because the vision could be elite. Maybe a bigger Ty Jerome.

He's in the mold of Cade Cunningham, Dyson Daniels, Josh Giddey. He falls somewhere in between those players for each skill but the idea is that you get a wing-sized playmaker who can be a primary – or at worst secondary – playmaker and hold up on defense (and he may be on the upper end on that end along with Daniels) and score at least well enough to keep defenses honest (question mark for some of them). His profile clearly is in demand. The question is how much pressure he can put on defenses with his scoring to fully leverage his top-tier playmaking ability. If he proves to be a reliable shooter and good interior scorer, he's likely a top 3 pick. If he's only one of the two, he'll fall a bit and look more like a mid-lottery pick (depending on the rest of the class, of course). If he's neither, then he'll be closer to a late lottery pick. That's solely from my perspective, of course.

I don’t rate Black as having top-tier playmaking ability like Giddey at this stage. He’s a good playmaker (particularly for his size), but not in the absolute top echelon overall. He does have better athleticism though, which evens it out somewhat. As you say, if he can add good shooting or scoring to those other traits, he’s in the top 5 picture.

[The-Power]

Sharpe had shooting to fall back on and Amen has generational athleticism. Sharpe is a good athlete esp vertically but Amen is like a WTF is this guy from the planet of earth type athlete.

How many wings with elite athleticism who cannot shoot reasonably well do you see in the current NBA who are more than specialists? How many of them have the ball in their hands on good teams?

Shooters who pass the size and athleticism thresholds for their position find important roles in the NBA. When you can't shoot well enough to justify having the ball in your hands, and you don't have to be guarded out on the perimeter when you don't have the ball, it's insanely difficult for perimeter players to start on playoff teams. Again, I'm not saying this is where the Thompson twins will end up – but it's a risk still.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with your claim of ‘generational athleticism’. In terms of quickness, explosion, and perhaps agility? I can see it (even though ‘generational’ as in ‘once in a generation’ might be stretching it a bit – there are lots of freak athletes in the NBA). But once you factor in strength or size, it becomes a lot less obvious. When we look at athleticism also from that point of view, are they even the best athletes in this class or is that Cam Whitmore? If we disregard length, then how far behind is Scoot? And if we factor in length, then where does that leave Victor with his insane combination of height, length, and fluidity?

The point is: them being top-tier athletes is not enough to leave a mark in the NBA without the required ancillary skills (which they can hone and develop, yes). We're not talking about Zion or Giannis here, where even without the ability to shoot or create on the ball, they'd still be very good NBA players just because they are that dominant in the paint and in transition.

[The-Power]

I can’t think of a guy to compare his current game too because the vision could be elite. Maybe a bigger Ty Jerome.

He's in the mold of Cade Cunningham, Dyson Daniels, Josh Giddey. He falls somewhere in between those players for each skill but the idea is that you get a wing-sized playmaker who can be a primary – or at worst secondary – playmaker and hold up on defense (and he may be on the upper end on that end along with Daniels) and score at least well enough to keep defenses honest (question mark for some of them). His profile clearly is in demand. The question is how much pressure he can put on defenses with his scoring to fully leverage his top-tier playmaking ability. If he proves to be a reliable shooter and good interior scorer, he's likely a top 3 pick. If he's only one of the two, he'll fall a bit and look more like a mid-lottery pick (depending on the rest of the class, of course). If he's neither, then he'll be closer to a late lottery pick. That's solely from my perspective, of course.

I don’t rate Black as having top-tier playmaking ability like Giddey at this stage. He’s a good playmaker (particularly for his size), but not in the absolute top echelon overall. He does have better athleticism though, which evens it out somewhat. As you say, if he can add good shooting or scoring to those other traits, he’s in the top 5 picture.

I'm not sure he's at Giddey's level in terms of playmaking either but I do think he's an excellent playmaker (even more so than pure passer, where Giddey really shines). Also, as you correctly point out, he's a better athlete and I'd add that he's also a better ball handler and projects to be a better shooter and defender. So I have him clearly ahead of Giddey as a prospect but that's not saying all that much considering that I was lower on Giddey than most due his limitations as a shooter and – for a lead Guard – ball handler.

[The-Power]

GG Jackson is not playing himself into the top 3 conversation if the performances continue at the current level.

[buzzkilloton]

Sharpe had shooting to fall back on and Amen has generational athleticism. Sharpe is a good athlete esp vertically but Amen is like a WTF is this guy from the planet of earth type athlete.

I mean the guy is one of the best athletes I've seen enter the NBA. Generational he has everything. If you dont see it I dont know what to tell ya you'll get it eventually.

Obv his ceiling is higher if he can develop a 3pt shot. If he doesnt then he ends up being a 6'7 best athlete ITL who owns transition, is versatile, has a high IQ, plays defense at a high level and can guard multiple position, and can handle the ball hopefully develops into a lead but if not secondary handler.

The player I just described without a 3pter is still more valuable to me playing with Cade then current version of Ivey mainly due to defensive versatility. I guess the main advantage Ivey has is the outside shooting which is currently about the same attempts and % as Westbrook this year. Ivey ofc could improve the shot but his mechanics need reworked. Then Amen could also improve his shot and if he does OMG what a player.

[WargamesX]

He's in the mold of Cade Cunningham, Dyson Daniels, Josh Giddey. He falls somewhere in between those players for each skill but the idea is that you get a wing-sized playmaker who can be a primary – or at worst secondary – playmaker and hold up on defense (and he may be on the upper end on that end along with Daniels) and score at least well enough to keep defenses honest (question mark for some of them). His profile clearly is in demand. The question is how much pressure he can put on defenses with his scoring to fully leverage his top-tier playmaking ability. If he proves to be a reliable shooter and good interior scorer, he's likely a top 3 pick. If he's only one of the two, he'll fall a bit and look more like a mid-lottery pick (depending on the rest of the class, of course). If he's neither, then he'll be closer to a late lottery pick. That's solely from my perspective, of course.

I don’t rate Black as having top-tier playmaking ability like Giddey at this stage. He’s a good playmaker (particularly for his size), but not in the absolute top echelon overall. He does have better athleticism though, which evens it out somewhat. As you say, if he can add good shooting or scoring to those other traits, he’s in the top 5 picture.

I'm not sure he's at Giddey's level in terms of playmaking either but I do think he's an excellent playmaker (even more so than pure passer, where Giddey really shines). Also, as you correctly point out, he's a better athlete and I'd add that he's also a better ball handler and projects to be a better shooter and defender. So I have him clearly ahead of Giddey as a prospect but that's not saying all that much considering that I was lower on Giddey than most due his limitations as a shooter and – for a lead Guard – ball handler.

So I thought of comparing him to Cade, but even early in college it was clear Cade’s offensive skill level was higher as well as his offensive output. Regarding Dyson (who was my favorite prospect last year) the defense was on a different level and he did it in the G-League. Plus longterm his PG responsibilities next to Scott (and the all star game next to Cade) showcased how he could fit as a secondary ball handler next to a lead guard and probably played heavily into the Pelican’s decision to draft him.

It’s early so Black has time to add to his game but right now I don’t think it’s fair to compare him to those guys. I do think like those 3 he isn’t an elite athlete, but that’s not really a issue either because it’s his ball-handling and vision that would get him drafted into the league. He needs to show that he can get his 3 pt shot off regardless of his shooting form.

Right now I see him as a Joe Ingles ceiling/Ty Jerome floor if he doesn’t start to show more offensive versatility. If anything I can think of that would help it would be to see him shoot more catch and shoot 3’s. It would be a great sign that his shot can get the ball in and a team could work with him to get to the point he could reliably do a pull up 3 if the defender gave him to much room. That should get him in the late lottery conversation. Now If he had a mid range game he would be in the top 5 picture. Overall I really just don’t see enough jump shooting from him to think he a lock for the lottery, but as I keep saying it’s early.

[MemphisX]

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[NYPiston]

Btw Proctor, Roach, Grandison, and touches for bigs like Flip and Mitchell, DWH gets like 0 real touches to actually make something happen, dude's being relegated to just spotting up, pretty much the same thing that happened to AJ Griffin last year, and his off ball chops are not developed enough to actually make a difference there.

just continues to amaze me why all these top guys all decide to go to the same school. go fkn sign somewhere else that'll feature you bro. sink or swim.

AJ Griffin is who I immediately thought of when looking at Whitehead's "preseason" usage but I think in both cases, easing them back from injury is probably the main reason for that. I expect Whitehead to get more playing time as the season progresses just as Griffin did then a more proper evaluation can be made.

It is frustrating though for us draft gurus and specifically for me as a Pistons fan who had Whitehead projected as one of the best fits for them based on position and skillset.

[Catchall]

Whitmore shouldn't play at this point, neither should Smith Jr....and if I was DWH and was only getting 5 mins despite being the #1 recruit I'd gtfo and start training for the draft.

i'd add Baba Miller to this list too, no point in coming in half way thru the season on a crappy team tbh, low upside

Baba's situation is a real downer. FSU's season is going to be over for all intents and purposes before Baba gets to play.

[Catchall]

GG Jackson is not playing himself into the top 3 conversation if the performances continue at the current level.

SC got blown off the floor last night. Game was over in 8-10 minutes. They couldn't get a stop, get a rebound, couldn't get looks, etc. This isn't GG's fault, obviously, but you can't say it's to his credit either.

I'm not sure GG is competing for top 3. I'd say he's competing with Cam Whitmore and Jarace Walker in the 6 - 8 range. I'd be thrilled if the Jazz could get GG outside the top 5.

The general consensus around the top 3 at this stage appears to be Wemby, Scoot and Amen. Maybe there's some chance that Anthony Black could get into that discussion, imo, and Whitmore hasn't played yet.

[clyde21]

Whitmore shouldn't play at this point, neither should Smith Jr....and if I was DWH and was only getting 5 mins despite being the #1 recruit I'd gtfo and start training for the draft.

i'd add Baba Miller to this list too, no point in coming in half way thru the season on a crappy team tbh, low upside

Baba's situation is a real downer. FSU's season is going to be over for all intents and purposes before Baba gets to play.

terrible coaching job by Hamilton at this point, probably has overstayed his welcome, and it's not a team devoid of talent. they've got Fletcher, Cleveland, Warley and Mills. no way this team should be this bad. i actually had decently highly hopes for Cleveland/Warley coming into the yr.

has to be what Baba's camp is thinking. FSU is 1-8 right now, not sure what the upside is coming mid way and playing tbh.

[Duke4life831]

i'd add Baba Miller to this list too, no point in coming in half way thru the season on a crappy team tbh, low upside

Baba's situation is a real downer. FSU's season is going to be over for all intents and purposes before Baba gets to play.

terrible coaching job by Hamilton at this point, probably has overstayed his welcome, and it's not a team devoid of talent. they've got Fletcher, Cleveland, Warley and Mills. no way this team should be this bad. i actually had decently highly hopes for Cleveland/Warley coming into the yr.

has to be what Baba's camp is thinking. FSU is 1-8 right now, not sure what the upside is coming mid way and playing tbh.

The game is passing by Hamilton. Which shouldnt be too big of a surprise, I mean the dude is only 1 year younger than K, he's been coaching legit programs since the mid 80s.

But ya FSU missed the tournament last year and have no reason to be 1-8 right now. FSU needs some fresh new blood in that program.

[EvanZ]

GG Jackson is not playing himself into the top 3 conversation if the performances continue at the current level.

SC got blown off the floor last night. Game was over in 8-10 minutes. They couldn't get a stop, get a rebound, couldn't get looks, etc. This isn't GG's fault, obviously, but you can't say it's to his credit either.

I'm not sure GG is competing for top 3. I'd say he's competing with Cam Whitmore and Jarace Walker in the 6 - 8 range. I'd be thrilled if the Jazz could get GG outside the top 5.

The general consensus around the top 3 at this stage appears to be Wemby, Scoot and Amen. Maybe there's some chance that Anthony Black could get into that discussion, imo, and Whitmore hasn't played yet.

When was he ever in the top 3 convo?

[clyde21]

it's not a top 3 convo, it's a 3-6 convo.

and he's pretty clearly in that convo.

[SeattleJazzFan]

Btw Proctor, Roach, Grandison, and touches for bigs like Flip and Mitchell, DWH gets like 0 real touches to actually make something happen, dude's being relegated to just spotting up, pretty much the same thing that happened to AJ Griffin last year, and his off ball chops are not developed enough to actually make a difference there.

and barely playing. scheyer sat him pretty much the entire second half in a relatively close game last night.

[SeattleJazzFan]

I dont think the league is going to impact the draft stock very much at all. We just seen Sharpe sit out the entire season and not play and still end up pick 7. Amen is way more tantalizing of a prospect then Sharpe and NBA teams will have more to go on.

Barlowe on a recent pod said he was talking to a NBA agent who was speculating Whitmore is going to sit the entire season. Whitmore doesnt need to step onto a court at all he could lock in a high lotto pick just on potential. Now Barlowe did say this is a agent talking and he thinks like a agent its speculation so dont take it as gospel. He said its not something he heard anywhere but that agent fwiw.

The point is some of these guys are already so high on NBA teams boards they dont even need to play anymore to stay high picks and really only have things to lose by playing. The Thompsons can play the league that suits them and then go kill some personal workouts and their good to go for the NBA. Of course it raises their bust risk if we cant see them in Gleague or the NCAA but for the players themselves sitting out or playing in the league like this makes alot of sense.

well ****. please let him be wrong.