If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#101 » by basketballRob » Fri Dec 2, 2022 4:47 pm

jasonxxx102 wrote:
Viper1500 wrote:Anyone who doesn’t have Franz in their top 3 doesn’t watch the Magic.


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I'm fine if you put Wagner 4, he's awesome.

He's not a better player or prospect than Mobley/Cade/Barnes, it's just that simple.

He's a really good player and that's not a slight but not a single GM in the league is taking Franz over any of those 3 guys
I couldn't imagine any GM taking Barnes over Franz. Last year we had posters claiming no GM would take Suggs and Wagner for Barnes.

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If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#102 » by Viper1500 » Fri Dec 2, 2022 5:02 pm

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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#103 » by PhilBlackson » Fri Dec 2, 2022 5:18 pm

basketballRob wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
Viper1500 wrote:Anyone who doesn’t have Franz in their top 3 doesn’t watch the Magic.


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I'm fine if you put Wagner 4, he's awesome.

He's not a better player or prospect than Mobley/Cade/Barnes, it's just that simple.

He's a really good player and that's not a slight but not a single GM in the league is taking Franz over any of those 3 guys

I couldn't imagine any GM taking Barnes over Franz. Last year we had posters claiming no GM would take Suggs and Wagner for Barnes.

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You couldn't imagine any GM doing that?! Just :lol: :lol: we'll see in a few years...

It's rich that people are completely changing their rankings based off of 20 or so games into a sophmore year where a couple of them (Cade & Barnes) have been struggling with injuries.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#104 » by CptCrunch » Fri Dec 2, 2022 5:36 pm

Here is just a ranking from a pure potential point of view, with potential defined as likely median outcome 3-5 years down the line.

1. Mobley - Really the only one with top 15 potential two way player. Slowed down a bit, but he is still generational on defense. I'm goign to write what I wrote last year, I don't care about his offense because his defense is just so damn elite.

2. Wagner - Franz is everything you want in a lotto pick. He shoots, defends (very well), and can pass the ball all in a 6'10" package. Probably a bit underrated pre-draft.

3. Green - Good shot jacker hasn't shown consistency on defense; when locked in his defense is quite good given his solid basketball IQ and elite atheleticism in terms of both fluidity and explosiveness. His high end outcome is a Booker, good player but not MVP candidate. Has show recent improvements in passing. We'll need to see if this can hold up long term. If he passing turns on, it really elevates his ceiling from a one way shot maker to a solid SG prospect.

4. Cade - People like to call him a floor raiser, but he isn't raising anything with his low assist rate, high turnover issues. Cade's supposed vision is one of the most overrated things in this league with no passing metrics that can back this up in the NBA or in college. Cade's value is not playing point guard but playing as a secondary ball handling SG. His complete lack of burst atheleticism limits his ceiling. His shot is rough right now, but I believe the shooting will come eventually. Cade's trajectory is safetly a top 25-40 type of player, best player on a team, but no where near all-NBA level.

5. Barnes - Scottie need to show that he isn't hitting a rookie wall hard and need to bounce back from the bad shooting streak, would take him #3 if/when he does given he has shown a lot during his rookie year. You usually want second year players to improve, but playing your best basketball your first year isn't something completely unheard of.

And I would probably draft Giddey and Sengun at #6/7, but wouldn't be too opposed to them being drafted at #5 in front of Barnes.

Yoshun wrote:I think it's worth noting that Mobley is doing what he's doing on a pretty good team (3rd in the East), and he's a big part of the reason why they're pretty good. There aren't too many teams in the league where Mobley wouldn't get significant playing time.


Ding ding ding ding kabboom. Thank you for noticing. He is co-anchoring the defense of a statistically the 2nd best team in the league right now. Rookies just don't turn team around with perimetes sieves like Garland and Mitchell.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#105 » by tooler » Fri Dec 2, 2022 5:45 pm

Franz is like the bar. He sets the standard.

The high ceiling players might eventually pass him. Until then, he's going to keep turning in 20/4/4 on 59% TS, finishing drives like Giannis, top 25 in PnR possessions per game at 75th percentile PPP, solid defense. That's the bar and we're very happy with it.

Don't take too long though. The bar keeps going up.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#106 » by PhilBlackson » Fri Dec 2, 2022 5:51 pm

I so look forward to watching this board flop on their assessments of Cade & Barnes in a few years...it's like posters just don't understand how injuries can affect play lol
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#107 » by tooler » Fri Dec 2, 2022 6:00 pm

PhilBlackson wrote:I so look forward to watching this board flop on their assessments of Cade & Barnes in a few years...it's like posters just don't understand how injuries can affect play lol

Seriously though, this is why these fights never end. When a couple players are down, do you think their fans are taking a sober look at the strengths and weaknesses of their prized young player? Oh no... they're plotting... and waiting for the right moment to strike. :evil:

Heck, Franz plays Cleveland tonight. I wouldn't be surprised if he scores 10 points on 30% shooting. :lol: That's why these threads are always so silly to me.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#108 » by TheLand13 » Fri Dec 2, 2022 9:27 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:Evan Mobley on the other hand, in just his second season, limited Embiid to below 20 points for the first time this season. Embiid was held to a low shooting percentage from the field. He could not for the life of him get to the line as regularly as he would against other opposing teams. And just an FYI: Allen didn't even play in this game.


Let's not get too carried away over one game, a game where Embiid was coming off a foot injury and the Sixers missing Harden and Maxey were relying on Shake Milton to run the offense.


Embiid just had a 30 point outing the game before with Clint Capela being the one tasked with guarding him. I'm not buying the foot injury being a reason at all.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#109 » by JonFromVA » Fri Dec 2, 2022 10:16 pm

TheLand13 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:Evan Mobley on the other hand, in just his second season, limited Embiid to below 20 points for the first time this season. Embiid was held to a low shooting percentage from the field. He could not for the life of him get to the line as regularly as he would against other opposing teams. And just an FYI: Allen didn't even play in this game.


Let's not get too carried away over one game, a game where Embiid was coming off a foot injury and the Sixers missing Harden and Maxey were relying on Shake Milton to run the offense.


Embiid just had a 30 point outing the game before with Clint Capela being the one tasked with guarding him. I'm not buying the foot injury being a reason at all.


Injuries can flare up, but players don't tend to use injuries as excuses, so we may never hear it from Joel or the Sixers. For whatever reason, Embiid wasn't playing very physical and he didn't hit many contested shots. Basically, he gave up his advantage, except for a short stretch where he got upset about fouls.

It wasn't even all Mobley. I count Embiid as being 2 for 6 when defended by Mobley and 4 for 12 .vs. everyone else. For the math impaired, that's the exact same FG%.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#110 » by hyper316 » Fri Dec 2, 2022 10:59 pm

rocketsfan100 wrote:Yes forget about Barnes. True

Mobley
Barnes
Cade
Green

Sounds right


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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#111 » by rocketsfan100 » Fri Dec 2, 2022 11:17 pm

I think Sengun and Wagner are legit conversation topics to.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#112 » by hippesthippo » Fri Dec 2, 2022 11:19 pm

K_chile22 wrote:Green has a significantly better TS than Cade or Barnes. He's right in line with average combo guard efficiency at 20 on a high usage. I do not understand why so many people are singling him out as inefficient when he's the second most efficient relative to his position (behind Franz) of any of the guys discussed here and doing it at the second highest usage.

Its fine to prefer other guys over him, draft has a lot of good players, but we don't have to make stuff up


I can't speak for everyone, but I could care less about Green's efficiency. It's obvious he's a good scorer.

I'm singling him out for being Trae Young level bad on defense. And even then, nobody is ranking him any lower than 5. Mostly higher.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#113 » by hippesthippo » Fri Dec 2, 2022 11:26 pm

Viper1500 wrote:Anyone who doesn’t have Franz in their top 3 doesn’t watch the Magic.


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Magic are my third most watched team this year. Franz disappears for large stretches at a time.

A lot of that is because Franz and Paolo are the only two players who know how to pass the ball and Paolo is out. Another part of it is Bol Bol being crazy efficient and hard to take your eyes off of. And the last part of it is difficulty imagining much more upside.

It doesn't mean he isn't still a great player. Tatum faced similar criticism early in his career as well. I just happen to like 4 other players more than him. That draft was hella deep. Hella.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#114 » by hippesthippo » Fri Dec 2, 2022 11:37 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:Evan Mobley on the other hand, in just his second season, limited Embiid to below 20 points for the first time this season. Embiid was held to a low shooting percentage from the field. He could not for the life of him get to the line as regularly as he would against other opposing teams. And just an FYI: Allen didn't even play in this game.


Let's not get too carried away over one game, a game where Embiid was coming off a foot injury and the Sixers missing Harden and Maxey were relying on Shake Milton to run the offense.

It was also Mamadi Diakite's first start of the season, a player with the length and mobility to at least try to replicate what Allen brings when playing next to Mobley.

Physically, Embiid could have pushed Mobley all around the floor if the refs felt like letting him and he felt like playing physical, but he just didn't seem to have his head in the game.

And fwiw, Embiid's worst game of the season so far was .vs. the Buck - a game both teams were healthy and the Sixers were at home.
-----

If there's a point to this long tangent, it's to emphasize how important it is for young players to be put in a situation where they can succeed. Evan has terrific instincts for playing unselfish/winning basketball, but he still needs to be supported by his teammates.

As the Son of a coach, having spent his youth playing with and against his older brother and on the older edge of a one and done player, Evan was well prepared for the league. It's almost unfair because he has defensive instincts you might not even start to see from some of the other guys until much later in their carer. I mean, did anyone think Brook Lopez was a defensive asset let alone DPOY candidate until he landed in Milwaukee?

Evan's ceiling is still going to be dictated by his physical and skill development, but being tall and quick gives him an advantage over the other guys too. Add on his BBIQ and court vision and he just has a terrific floor as a prospect even if he never becomes a more physical player and fails to improve his dribbling or shooting.


Diakite made it to the league? I was wondering if he ever would. Dude looked freakishly long in college and excelled in the role he was given on defense. That's cool he got a start, not sure how I missed he was on the Cav's roster.

Brook's transformation from high volume middling efficiency post player with awful defense to 3pt bombing rim protecting machine is pretty much unprecedented.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#115 » by hippesthippo » Fri Dec 2, 2022 11:39 pm

tooler wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:I so look forward to watching this board flop on their assessments of Cade & Barnes in a few years...it's like posters just don't understand how injuries can affect play lol

Seriously though, this is why these fights never end. When a couple players are down, do you think their fans are taking a sober look at the strengths and weaknesses of their prized young player? Oh no... they're plotting... and waiting for the right moment to strike. :evil:

Heck, Franz plays Cleveland tonight. I wouldn't be surprised if he scores 10 points on 30% shooting. :lol: That's why these threads are always so silly to me.


Silly, but fun and relevant. This thread has actually had a decent amount of good discussion. Not nearly as much homerism as I expected and pretty much troll free.

EDIT: Sorry for the quad post guys. I swear I'll learn how to multi-quote in a post without making a mess of things eventually.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#116 » by big-shot-ROB » Sat Dec 3, 2022 12:00 am

toooskies wrote:
big-shot-ROB wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:


Image


Did you just prove my point? LOL. Giannis game is closer to LeBron, Kawhi and Durant than to Mobley. He's big, but doesn't play as a big. He's the archetype of scoring+playmaking forward I was just talking about.

Well if you reclassify every 7-footer who's a first option as a wing then yes, no bigs are 1st options. LeBron, KD, and Giannis have all played every position on the floor in their careers. They have every skill-- they are bigs, they are point guards, and that versatility makes them nominally wings. Mobley's off the dribble game isn't polished yet, but there's potential there, and if he develops it, you'll just reclassify him as a big wing, yes?


No, they're not bigs. They're playmaking and scoring forwards. You're just intentionally missing the point and clearly wrong so this is stupid
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#117 » by big-shot-ROB » Sat Dec 3, 2022 12:05 am

TheLand13 wrote:
big-shot-ROB wrote:
TheLand13 wrote:


Image


Did you just prove my point? LOL. Giannis game is closer to LeBron, Kawhi and Durant than to Mobley. He's big, but doesn't play as a big. He's the archetype of scoring+playmaking forward I was just talking about.


No, I just proved why you're wrong. And now you just made it worse for yourself.

First off, Giannis is a big. He's 7 ft and relies heavily on attacking the paint, and a lot of his success comes from his ability to be physically dominant. How the hell is that not a big? What, because he scores a lot of points and is a great playmaker, that suddenly means he's not a big? That doesn't make any sense. I guess Wilt and Hakeem weren't bigs either, right?

Second, going off the previous point, that is nothing like how Kawhi and Durant play. Both are crafty players with great length and insane shooting mechanics combined with incredibly skilled foot work and ball control. Again, this is nothing like Giannis. Yes he has great length and footwork but the roots of his production comes from charging at the rim without any regard for who is in front of him. I feel like all you did there was just compare their scoring and assist numbers and conclude that Giannis plays like them. No, that's not the case. I don't deny that similarities are there with LeBron. But Giannis is definitely a lot closer to how Mobley plays on offense to how Kawhi and Durant play. To state otherwise is just flat out wrong.

Third why are you so confident that Mobley, a 21 year old in his second season, can't be the first option on a championship winning team? Let's go back to Giannis for a second... do you understand what type of player Giannis was at the age of 21? Mobley at that age is already very far ahead of him as far as being offensively skilled is concerned. Let's say that Mobley continues to develop and becomes an incredibly elite scorer on top of (most likely) being one of, if not the best defensive player in the NBA. Depending on when that happens, he could be on a team that features Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell and Jarrett Allen. All three of these men have already been all stars as of today. You're telling me that's not a championship team if Mobley is their number one option and has developed into an elite offensive player because he's a big? That spits in the face of logic.

Fourth, the whole idea that a "big can't be the number one option on a championship team" is idiotic in of itself, but your reasoning for why is even worse. We haven't seen a championship team with one as their number one option in the past ten years? So what? Even if that were the case (which, as I just proved, it's not), there is this thing called context and it's extremely important. In the past ten years, we've been living in the primes of two top ten all time greats in LeBron James and Steph Curry, who were on some of the best teams they've ever had in their careers. A big not being a number one option on a championship winning team during that time frame doesn't mean anything at all. It's just an incredibly lazy explanation for an incredibly bad take. That would be like me saying that the guy who took one three pointer in his entire career, made it, and had a perfect shooting percentage, was the greatest three point shooter of all time. My reasoning for it is just unjustifiable and no thought was put into it.

In other words, your entire point makes no sense, and I doubt you gave any actual thought to it.


1. You're an incredibly big homer. Just the way you talk about Mobley renders the conversation stupid.

2. Giannis is perimeter player and clearly not a big. He's a wing just like LeBron is a wing. If you fail to see that or acnowledge that then this conversation is stupid x2 + you wasted too many sentences to show you're just wrong
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#118 » by Optms » Sat Dec 3, 2022 12:10 am

hippesthippo wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:Green has a significantly better TS than Cade or Barnes. He's right in line with average combo guard efficiency at 20 on a high usage. I do not understand why so many people are singling him out as inefficient when he's the second most efficient relative to his position (behind Franz) of any of the guys discussed here and doing it at the second highest usage.

Its fine to prefer other guys over him, draft has a lot of good players, but we don't have to make stuff up


I can't speak for everyone, but I could care less about Green's efficiency. It's obvious he's a good scorer.

I'm singling him out for being Trae Young level bad on defense. And even then, nobody is ranking him any lower than 5. Mostly higher.


Trae Young is like 5'11 at best and is as athletic as grandmother who does yoga. Green is an elite athlete. So that puts his ceiling in a different tier altogether, even if at 20, his other skills have yet to develop.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#119 » by turnaroundJ » Sat Dec 3, 2022 1:25 am

Lol @ people thinking Franz’s potential isn’t as high as the rest. He’s a 6’10 SG. Fluid, athletic, high bb iq, great shooting touch, potential as an elite finisher.

6’10!!!
shooting guard!!!

Those don’t grow on trees. Right now he’s in my top 3, probably #2, with Mobley and Green (who I think has defense and playmaking potential).

Then I have Sengun Barnes Giddey and Cade in order. But wouldn’t be surprised if things vp turn out differently.
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Re: If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently 

Post#120 » by tooler » Sat Dec 3, 2022 1:38 am

turnaroundJ wrote:Lol @ people thinking Franz’s potential isn’t as high as the rest. He’s a 6’10 SG. Fluid, athletic, high bb iq, great shooting touch, potential as an elite finisher.

6’10!!!
shooting guard!!!

Those don’t grow on trees. Right now he’s in my top 3, probably #2, with Mobley and Green (who I think has defense and playmaking potential).

Quiet down! We're jinxing him tonight just as I predicted! :lol:

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