If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

[azcatz11]

In terms of pure potential:

1. Mobley
2. Green
3. Barnes
4. Cade
5. Wagner (distant 5th)

[JonFromVA]

Evan Mobley on the other hand, in just his second season, limited Embiid to below 20 points for the first time this season. Embiid was held to a low shooting percentage from the field. He could not for the life of him get to the line as regularly as he would against other opposing teams. And just an FYI: Allen didn't even play in this game.

Let's not get too carried away over one game, a game where Embiid was coming off a foot injury and the Sixers missing Harden and Maxey were relying on Shake Milton to run the offense.

It was also Mamadi Diakite's first start of the season, a player with the length and mobility to at least try to replicate what Allen brings when playing next to Mobley.

Physically, Embiid could have pushed Mobley all around the floor if the refs felt like letting him and he felt like playing physical, but he just didn't seem to have his head in the game.

And fwiw, Embiid's worst game of the season so far was .vs. the Buck - a game both teams were healthy and the Sixers were at home.
-----

If there's a point to this long tangent, it's to emphasize how important it is for young players to be put in a situation where they can succeed. Evan has terrific instincts for playing unselfish/winning basketball, but he still needs to be supported by his teammates.

As the Son of a coach, having spent his youth playing with and against his older brother and on the older edge of a one and done player, Evan was well prepared for the league. It's almost unfair because he has defensive instincts you might not even start to see from some of the other guys until much later in their carer. I mean, did anyone think Brook Lopez was a defensive asset let alone DPOY candidate until he landed in Milwaukee?

Evan's ceiling is still going to be dictated by his physical and skill development, but being tall and quick gives him an advantage over the other guys too. Add on his BBIQ and court vision and he just has a terrific floor as a prospect even if he never becomes a more physical player and fails to improve his dribbling or shooting.

Diakite made it to the league? I was wondering if he ever would. Dude looked freakishly long in college and excelled in the role he was given on defense. That's cool he got a start, not sure how I missed he was on the Cav's roster.

Brook's transformation from high volume middling efficiency post player with awful defense to 3pt bombing rim protecting machine is pretty much unprecedented.

Zydrunas Ilgauskas would have been content to play drop coverage for his entire career, but Mike Brown asked him to show & recover and somehow with 10lbs of steel in his feet - he pulled it off and was a plus defender.

Weird stuff like Brook happens . . .

[hippesthippo]

Let's not get too carried away over one game, a game where Embiid was coming off a foot injury and the Sixers missing Harden and Maxey were relying on Shake Milton to run the offense.

It was also Mamadi Diakite's first start of the season, a player with the length and mobility to at least try to replicate what Allen brings when playing next to Mobley.

Physically, Embiid could have pushed Mobley all around the floor if the refs felt like letting him and he felt like playing physical, but he just didn't seem to have his head in the game.

And fwiw, Embiid's worst game of the season so far was .vs. the Buck - a game both teams were healthy and the Sixers were at home.
-----

If there's a point to this long tangent, it's to emphasize how important it is for young players to be put in a situation where they can succeed. Evan has terrific instincts for playing unselfish/winning basketball, but he still needs to be supported by his teammates.

As the Son of a coach, having spent his youth playing with and against his older brother and on the older edge of a one and done player, Evan was well prepared for the league. It's almost unfair because he has defensive instincts you might not even start to see from some of the other guys until much later in their carer. I mean, did anyone think Brook Lopez was a defensive asset let alone DPOY candidate until he landed in Milwaukee?

Evan's ceiling is still going to be dictated by his physical and skill development, but being tall and quick gives him an advantage over the other guys too. Add on his BBIQ and court vision and he just has a terrific floor as a prospect even if he never becomes a more physical player and fails to improve his dribbling or shooting.

Diakite made it to the league? I was wondering if he ever would. Dude looked freakishly long in college and excelled in the role he was given on defense. That's cool he got a start, not sure how I missed he was on the Cav's roster.

Brook's transformation from high volume middling efficiency post player with awful defense to 3pt bombing rim protecting machine is pretty much unprecedented.

Zydrunas Ilgauskas would have been content to play drop coverage for his entire career, but Mike Brown asked him to show & recover and somehow with 10lbs of steel in his feet - he pulled it off and was a plus defender.

Weird stuff like Brook happens . . .

True, but those were different times with much different offensive sets. And Mike Brown has always been a hell of defensive coach. Big Z's awesomeness transcended my hatred of the Cavs back then.

[hippesthippo]

Green has a significantly better TS than Cade or Barnes. He's right in line with average combo guard efficiency at 20 on a high usage. I do not understand why so many people are singling him out as inefficient when he's the second most efficient relative to his position (behind Franz) of any of the guys discussed here and doing it at the second highest usage.

Its fine to prefer other guys over him, draft has a lot of good players, but we don't have to make stuff up

I can't speak for everyone, but I could care less about Green's efficiency. It's obvious he's a good scorer.

I'm singling him out for being Trae Young level bad on defense. And even then, nobody is ranking him any lower than 5. Mostly higher.

Trae Young is like 5'11 at best and is as athletic as grandmother who does yoga. Green is an elite athlete. So that puts his ceiling in a different tier altogether, even if at 20, his other skills have yet to develop.

Very true. He has plenty of time. We're all nitpicking here. Green's defense looks bad. Cade's shot isn't failing, but at least he's got good form.

[toooskies]

Did you just prove my point? LOL. Giannis game is closer to LeBron, Kawhi and Durant than to Mobley. He's big, but doesn't play as a big. He's the archetype of scoring+playmaking forward I was just talking about.

Well if you reclassify every 7-footer who's a first option as a wing then yes, no bigs are 1st options. LeBron, KD, and Giannis have all played every position on the floor in their careers. They have every skill-- they are bigs, they are point guards, and that versatility makes them nominally wings. Mobley's off the dribble game isn't polished yet, but there's potential there, and if he develops it, you'll just reclassify him as a big wing, yes?

No, they're not bigs. They're playmaking and scoring forwards. You're just intentionally missing the point and clearly wrong so this is stupid

And if Mobley develops his scoring and playmaking, does he cease to be a big? Two games in a row he's taken the ball full court off an in-bounds, euro-stepped the defender at the hoop, and dunked.

[K_chile22]

Green has a significantly better TS than Cade or Barnes. He's right in line with average combo guard efficiency at 20 on a high usage. I do not understand why so many people are singling him out as inefficient when he's the second most efficient relative to his position (behind Franz) of any of the guys discussed here and doing it at the second highest usage.

Its fine to prefer other guys over him, draft has a lot of good players, but we don't have to make stuff up

I can't speak for everyone, but I could care less about Green's efficiency. It's obvious he's a good scorer.

I'm singling him out for being Trae Young level bad on defense. And even then, nobody is ranking him any lower than 5. Mostly higher.

Trae Young is like 5'11 at best and is as athletic as grandmother who does yoga. Green is an elite athlete. So that puts his ceiling in a different tier altogether, even if at 20, his other skills have yet to develop.

Yeah it's very normal for guards, especially ones as weak as he still is, to struggle getting up to speed on defense. No argument from me it's really bad rn but there are some on ball flashes, he'll get better. Biggest issue is getting lost off ball


Edit: right as I posted this he got caught ball watching and his man gets a wide open 3 because Jalen had no clue where he was


Second edit: to see those on ball flashes, look at how he defended booker on the potential game winner (the one before all the chaos and rebounds that led to an open jumper) Perfect on ball defense.

[KuruptedCav]

Let's not get too carried away over one game, a game where Embiid was coming off a foot injury and the Sixers missing Harden and Maxey were relying on Shake Milton to run the offense.

It was also Mamadi Diakite's first start of the season, a player with the length and mobility to at least try to replicate what Allen brings when playing next to Mobley.

Physically, Embiid could have pushed Mobley all around the floor if the refs felt like letting him and he felt like playing physical, but he just didn't seem to have his head in the game.

And fwiw, Embiid's worst game of the season so far was .vs. the Buck - a game both teams were healthy and the Sixers were at home.
-----

If there's a point to this long tangent, it's to emphasize how important it is for young players to be put in a situation where they can succeed. Evan has terrific instincts for playing unselfish/winning basketball, but he still needs to be supported by his teammates.

As the Son of a coach, having spent his youth playing with and against his older brother and on the older edge of a one and done player, Evan was well prepared for the league. It's almost unfair because he has defensive instincts you might not even start to see from some of the other guys until much later in their carer. I mean, did anyone think Brook Lopez was a defensive asset let alone DPOY candidate until he landed in Milwaukee?

Evan's ceiling is still going to be dictated by his physical and skill development, but being tall and quick gives him an advantage over the other guys too. Add on his BBIQ and court vision and he just has a terrific floor as a prospect even if he never becomes a more physical player and fails to improve his dribbling or shooting.

Diakite made it to the league? I was wondering if he ever would. Dude looked freakishly long in college and excelled in the role he was given on defense. That's cool he got a start, not sure how I missed he was on the Cav's roster.

Brook's transformation from high volume middling efficiency post player with awful defense to 3pt bombing rim protecting machine is pretty much unprecedented.

Zydrunas Ilgauskas would have been content to play drop coverage for his entire career, but Mike Brown asked him to show & recover and somehow with 10lbs of steel in his feet - he pulled it off and was a plus defender.

Weird stuff like Brook happens . . .

Z was something else. He transformed a couple of times…

https://youtu.be/KiwTgsByD0U
https://youtu.be/ucWIZVWYzg4


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TheLand13]

Did you just prove my point? LOL. Giannis game is closer to LeBron, Kawhi and Durant than to Mobley. He's big, but doesn't play as a big. He's the archetype of scoring+playmaking forward I was just talking about.

No, I just proved why you're wrong. And now you just made it worse for yourself.

First off, Giannis is a big. He's 7 ft and relies heavily on attacking the paint, and a lot of his success comes from his ability to be physically dominant. How the hell is that not a big? What, because he scores a lot of points and is a great playmaker, that suddenly means he's not a big? That doesn't make any sense. I guess Wilt and Hakeem weren't bigs either, right?

Second, going off the previous point, that is nothing like how Kawhi and Durant play. Both are crafty players with great length and insane shooting mechanics combined with incredibly skilled foot work and ball control. Again, this is nothing like Giannis. Yes he has great length and footwork but the roots of his production comes from charging at the rim without any regard for who is in front of him. I feel like all you did there was just compare their scoring and assist numbers and conclude that Giannis plays like them. No, that's not the case. I don't deny that similarities are there with LeBron. But Giannis is definitely a lot closer to how Mobley plays on offense to how Kawhi and Durant play. To state otherwise is just flat out wrong.

Third why are you so confident that Mobley, a 21 year old in his second season, can't be the first option on a championship winning team? Let's go back to Giannis for a second... do you understand what type of player Giannis was at the age of 21? Mobley at that age is already very far ahead of him as far as being offensively skilled is concerned. Let's say that Mobley continues to develop and becomes an incredibly elite scorer on top of (most likely) being one of, if not the best defensive player in the NBA. Depending on when that happens, he could be on a team that features Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell and Jarrett Allen. All three of these men have already been all stars as of today. You're telling me that's not a championship team if Mobley is their number one option and has developed into an elite offensive player because he's a big? That spits in the face of logic.

Fourth, the whole idea that a "big can't be the number one option on a championship team" is idiotic in of itself, but your reasoning for why is even worse. We haven't seen a championship team with one as their number one option in the past ten years? So what? Even if that were the case (which, as I just proved, it's not), there is this thing called context and it's extremely important. In the past ten years, we've been living in the primes of two top ten all time greats in LeBron James and Steph Curry, who were on some of the best teams they've ever had in their careers. A big not being a number one option on a championship winning team during that time frame doesn't mean anything at all. It's just an incredibly lazy explanation for an incredibly bad take. That would be like me saying that the guy who took one three pointer in his entire career, made it, and had a perfect shooting percentage, was the greatest three point shooter of all time. My reasoning for it is just unjustifiable and no thought was put into it.

In other words, your entire point makes no sense, and I doubt you gave any actual thought to it.

1. You're an incredibly big homer. Just the way you talk about Mobley renders the conversation stupid.

2. Giannis is perimeter player and clearly not a big. He's a wing just like LeBron is a wing. If you fail to see that or acnowledge that then this conversation is stupid x2 + you wasted too many sentences to show you're just wrong

1. Literally nothing I just said suggests I am a homer, and you going the homer route instead of addressing my points suggests you’ve already lost. And nothing I’ve said about Mobley is wrong. If you think otherwise, then explain it. Don’t waste my time by calling what I say stupid if you don’t even have the brain cells to explain why.

2. Giannis is not a wing. That might be one of the most idiotic takes I’ve ever heard in my time on this forum and I’m strongly considering making it my sig. At this point you’re demonstrating two things: you don’t know what a wing is and you don’t know what a big is. Either way, you’ve somehow managed to one up the Jaren Jackson Jr take.

Now, please do explain how Giannis is a wing player and not a big. I’ll wait.

[Farhan0311]

Green has a significantly better TS than Cade or Barnes. He's right in line with average combo guard efficiency at 20 on a high usage. I do not understand why so many people are singling him out as inefficient when he's the second most efficient relative to his position (behind Franz) of any of the guys discussed here and doing it at the second highest usage.

Its fine to prefer other guys over him, draft has a lot of good players, but we don't have to make stuff up

I can't speak for everyone, but I could care less about Green's efficiency. It's obvious he's a good scorer.

I'm singling him out for being Trae Young level bad on defense. And even then, nobody is ranking him any lower than 5. Mostly higher.

How is he Trae Young level bad at defense?

His opponent fg% is 2% less than league average.

[Farhan0311]

Green tonight showed me something huge that he didn't have last season. Last season if he had this horrible of a first half he becomes a stand in the corner observer for the rest of the game.

This dude not only was playing like crap but his team was down big on the road against one of the toughest arenas in the league and started talking **** lol. And the backed it up relentlessly collapsing the defense and getting into the paint effortlessly.

I sincerely think you can build an entire offense around his elite dribble seperation ability. He collapses defenses very often. He's starting to read the open teammates he consistently generates more often now in the past 10 or so games. Marked improvement in playmaking and manipulating screens with a live dribble. Has a great two man game going with Sengun when the team is smart and runs a pnr with those two. It's the best offensive play the Rockets have I think. Should be their base offense.

[Farhan0311]

I can see the merit in considering Mobley given his size and two way talent, but I'm still going Cade.

Once he found his groove last season he averaged 21.1/5.7/6.5 on 46% shooting post all-star break. He didn't rush out the gate this year but clearly his shin injury had affected his play. I believe when he returns if he can eventually develop an above league average three point shot and starts getting to the line more then he'll get into that 25-27ppg range on good efficiency.

If you're picking first in the draft you're looking for a superstar that can:
1. Be the first option on offense
2. Make those around him better

I feel like Jalen Green can fulfil the first and Barnes and Mobley can cover the second but only Cade can do both.

Green is showing actual growth in his playmaking this year. Our of all the players in the draft I think he collapses defenses and generates open looks for his teammates the most. It's just he isn't the passer Cade is at finding them. But Green definitely does create more open looks than Cade because his dribble seperation is more effortless.

[Exp0sed]

this is getting ridicilous
last season we heard the geniuses proclaim that the defense is actually J. allen and how without him Mobley looks bad
now without Allen - Mobley is in all-star mode, beasting and winning while still on his slender frame

Mobley is a sure fire star, the only question is whether hell be a run of the mill all-star or somwhere along the ATG spectrum

no1 would pick any of these guys rn over him, lock this thread

[hippesthippo]

Green has a significantly better TS than Cade or Barnes. He's right in line with average combo guard efficiency at 20 on a high usage. I do not understand why so many people are singling him out as inefficient when he's the second most efficient relative to his position (behind Franz) of any of the guys discussed here and doing it at the second highest usage.

Its fine to prefer other guys over him, draft has a lot of good players, but we don't have to make stuff up

I can't speak for everyone, but I could care less about Green's efficiency. It's obvious he's a good scorer.

I'm singling him out for being Trae Young level bad on defense. And even then, nobody is ranking him any lower than 5. Mostly higher.

How is he Trae Young level bad at defense?

His opponent fg% is 2% less than league average.

Off-ball, bruv. He looks lost. Your statistic also says absolutely nothing about who he's guarding. Most NBA player's are capable of playing man defense. An athlete like Green, even now, I'm sure has a possession or 2 every game where it looks like he's locking someone down. This isn't the 90's where you're only responsible for one man on defense tho.

Trae Young was an exaggeration, but isn't that far off.

[hippesthippo]

Green tonight showed me something huge that he didn't have last season. Last season if he had this horrible of a first half he becomes a stand in the corner observer for the rest of the game.

This dude not only was playing like crap but his team was down big on the road against one of the toughest arenas in the league and started talking **** lol. And the backed it up relentlessly collapsing the defense and getting into the paint effortlessly.

I sincerely think you can build an entire offense around his elite dribble seperation ability. He collapses defenses very often. He's starting to read the open teammates he consistently generates more often now in the past 10 or so games. Marked improvement in playmaking and manipulating screens with a live dribble. Has a great two man game going with Sengun when the team is smart and runs a pnr with those two. It's the best offensive play the Rockets have I think. Should be their base offense.

Yup.

I really have no idea wth Kevin Porter Jr. is doing starting other than ensuring a bottom 3 record.

[AussieCeltic]

1. Mobley


2. Cade
3. Franz
4. Barnes



5. Green


Mobley stands way above the rest in my eyes. I think 2-4 are interchangeable right now. I don’t believe Green will ever be a winning player in this league. Scores points, but his efficiency isn’t great and he gets lit up by opposing guards on a nightly basis.

[Braggins]

1 - Evan Mobley
2 - Scottie Barnes
3 - Franz Wagner
4 - Cade Cunningham
5 - Jalen Green
6 - Alperen Sengun
7 - Josh Giddey
8 - Herb Jones

Before anyone says anything about having Franz so high, know that I was closer to putting him ahead of Barnes than behind Cade. I kind of want to put Green over Cade too, but I'm not quite there. Sengun/Giddey/Jones are hard to rank against each other because they are so different.

[shi-woo]

Im not picking a big who can’t be a star on offense over two potential star perimeter players who can shoot, score and create on offense.

What’s Mobley’s ceiling Jaren Jackson Jr.?

You’re taking Jaren Jackson Jr. over two likely 25ppg guards?

This is a bad take. It's not like Evan is some scrub on offense, he's averaging 15 ppg on 11 shots, and already has a solid midrange game. He gets to the basket at a good clip for someone who isn't really featured on offense, is developing his range out to the 3pnt line, and can take big guys off the dribble.

Back in the day rookies and sophomores weren't expected to come out and give you 30 a game, and that shouldn't be the expectation now.

What is his ceiling? People keep throwing around that stupid Chris Bosh comparison. I get it, they kind of look a like, but they play literally nothing alike. Kevin Garnet is a more accurate comparison in my opinion given Evan's defensive mobility, and good not elite offensive game.

KG is a much better player than 7ft tall I play like a guard JJJ. Once Mobley grows into his man body in a few years I think the KG comp will look a lot more realistic. And yes, I'm drafting KG over of 2 guards who can accelerate an offense, because it's easier to find what they bring to the table than what Evan does, and still will be able to get you buckets.

The thing with players like Mobley too is they are the type of guys who exponentially get better as the players around them get better. Don't be shocked to see KG prime numbers from him by year 5 where he's giving you 22/12/5 and in contention for DPoY

[Farhan0311]

1. Mobley


2. Cade
3. Franz
4. Barnes



5. Green


Mobley stands way above the rest in my eyes. I think 2-4 are interchangeable right now. I don’t believe Green will ever be a winning player in this league. Scores points, but his efficiency isn’t great and he gets lit up by opposing guards on a nightly basis.

He gets lit up by opposing guards?

This is what I hate about judging defense. Casual fans who don't follow a team just go on past reputation. You do know Green averages 2% points below league average for fg% of opposing player being guarded right?

Also inefficient? Compared to who exactly at his age who is tasked to take majority of their attempts unassisted? Cade? Barnes? You know his scoring efficiency actually is considerably higher than those guys right? So what are you exactly referring to as "low efficiency" for a 20 year old sophomore guard?

[Farhan0311]

1 - Evan Mobley
2 - Scottie Barnes
3 - Franz Wagner
4 - Cade Cunningham
5 - Jalen Green
6 - Alperen Sengun
7 - Josh Giddey
8 - Herb Jones

Before anyone says anything about having Franz so high, know that I was closer to putting him ahead of Barnes than behind Cade. I kind of want to put Green over Cade too, but I'm not quite there. Sengun/Giddey/Jones are hard to rank against each other because they are so different.

The first two I just don't see as players you can build an offense around unlike Green. He is collapsing defenses consistently and is starting to find the open man he consistently generates. Barnes has strength but dude hardly ever collapses defenses as he doesn't create much seperation and defenses don't care to close him out as he isn't a shooter. And I don't need an explanation why Mobley can't be a number one option. Look at his unassisted scoring rate. It's like 25% which is Rudy Golbert level of self creation.

[Farhan0311]

1 - Evan Mobley
2 - Scottie Barnes
3 - Franz Wagner
4 - Cade Cunningham
5 - Jalen Green
6 - Alperen Sengun
7 - Josh Giddey
8 - Herb Jones

Before anyone says anything about having Franz so high, know that I was closer to putting him ahead of Barnes than behind Cade. I kind of want to put Green over Cade too, but I'm not quite there. Sengun/Giddey/Jones are hard to rank against each other because they are so different.

The first two I just don't see as players you can build an offense around unlike Green. He is collapsing defenses consistently and is starting to find the open man he consistently generates. Barnes has strength but dude hardly ever collapses defenses as he doesn't create much seperation and defenses don't care to close him out as he isn't a shooter. And I don't need an explanation why Mobley can't be a number one option. Look at his unassisted scoring rate. It's like 25% which is Rudy Golbert level of self creation.

Wagner is having similar production and efficiency as Green (ts%) while joining the league a year older than Green. His ceiling his definitely higher than Wagner.