PG: Raps lose to the Nets

[pingpongrac]

more than a rough patch man. he'll have a good shooting game once in a blue moon and loyalists will call for an apology, but his shooting numbers have been atrocious way more often than not and he brings pretty much nothing else if he's not hitting 3's. rather management actually follow through with their positionless plan and roll with a 6'7+ line up. it was beautiful basketball without FVV against the 76ers in the 2 games they won. likely would've been swept with him if he played all the games.

FVV doesn't need to shoot a high percentage every game to be very impactful though. I don't know why people still don't understand that he is generally going to shoot in the ~40% range as three-point variance and his poor finishing inside is always going to hold his percentages back. Still, he has been a pretty decently efficient scoring guard and not turnover-prone over the last few seasons while being a very high impact player on both ends.

Also, it is just a little rough patch the last few games. FVV literally had 26/7/6 on good efficiency against the Mavs last week and as a whole averaged 24/3/6 on 55 TS% in the 7 games he played without Siakam through most of November, which is very good offensive production. He then played a very good floor game against the Cavs before missing everything in the last two games (1/14 on 3FGA) as part of blowout losses. He has been bad the last two games, but so has most of the team. He's not the only reason we've been blown out in back-to-back games.

check his shooting percentages since the all star break. he doesn't need to shoot a high percentage but it's preferable that he shoot a respectable percentage and he's just been awful way more often than not. as the self proclaimed leader, he needs to set the tone and do what needs to be done to spark the team and bring energy. he doesn't at all. he's a slow chucker who bogs down the offense, gets shut down by length and gets cooked by quicker guards. the games played without Siakam were mostly against poor quality teams and that's really been his calling card, putting him stats against trash teams. you could pick out good games here and there but who the **** cares if the team is going nowhere. he certainly doesn't help the team grow.

The 7 games FVV played in that span were against Chicago (twice), Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, OKC and Houston. How is that mostly trash teams? The only two that are expected to be lottery teams are OKC and Houston...and he averaged 24/3/4 on 58 TS% in those games with 24/3/7 on 54 TS% in the other 5. He was the best or second best player in our wins against the Bulls and Mavs and he was good against the Heat while he was bad against OKC and Atlanta.

FVV isn't holding the team back from growing unless you mean in a literal sense, which wouldn't surprise me since people like to make fun of his size. Basically everyone plays better and we as a team are better with FVV on the floor while someone like Scottie's USG% and production is significantly better with FVV on the floor compared to when FVV's off the floor.

[ATLTimekeeper]

IMO both Scottie and FVV are to blame but yes, one is a 2nd year player whereas the other is a vet who has been named an all star as of last year. You can't just duck when things aren't going great and then claim to be someone when things are going your way. This year definitely isn't it. Injuries and inexperience is showing plus lack of talent and IQ perhaps but it's on the team leadership to address this. Tbh; this isn't a fun team to watch not sure what it is, I missed last game and glad I did.

The Cleveland game was a lot of fun. There have been 3 questionable blowouts, OKC, NOP and this one, that makes you wonder what they're doing the night before or where they're chemistry is at.

But, are you implying that Fred is ducking? He literally just said he's playing like ****.

[DelAbbot]

Whataboutism of Freddy's Caddies

[pingpongrac]

Sat right behind the Raptors bench last night, Barnes body language is terrible. Always yelling at his teammates and sulking

Every game we see Scottie getting upset at teammates for mishandling a pass (even when he throws it at their feet or out of their reach) or missing what should be an easy shot after he passes to them. He also has a tendency to throw his arms up in the air or look annoyed after a defensive breakdown regardless if it's someone else's fault or his own.

It seems like he is letting his emotions get the best of him which is to be expected of a young player especially when they're going through a rough patch, but I hope his body language changes soon. The team's play has been very up and down over the stretch, and Scottie himself is a big reason why; he's averaging 13/6/5 on 44 TS% in the last 10 games while his defence has fallen off a cliff with 5 blowbys for easy buckets and 5 missed rotations for a corner three or backdoor cut basically guaranteed every game. Similar to what FVV said post-game last night ("I'm not really in a position to be telling anybody else what they need to do. I gotta get my own **** together."), Scottie should be more focused on working out of this slump/improving his own game to help the team win than sulking and throwing looks at teammates when things aren't going his way.

[WaltFrazier]

I didn't watch the game last night, but this thread is hilarious

People keep pointing to last season as if we did something special, we didn't. We overachieved in last years regular season and got slapped in the 1st Round. I'm not sure why last season keeps getting brought up like it was some massive success.

It was successful relative to where we're at as a franchise. It was the first year of a "rebuild" and we won 48 games and made the playoffs. It's relative. There are franchises that haven't won 48 games in years.

Was it a "massive success"? No. But it signaled an upswing. It was a good starting point for a franchise coming off its worst season in 8 years.

Not really, last year we looked like a play-in team and a 1st Round exit. Instead we over achieved and finished 5th, with a 1st Round exit

The result was the exact same, and we wore out FVV chasing that 5th seed, he couldn't even play when it mattered

The East is also better this year, and we're the same old team

Same old team, that needs a trade. Otto and Precious will help but still need a new piece or two

[JPriest]

FVV doesn't need to shoot a high percentage every game to be very impactful though. I don't know why people still don't understand that he is generally going to shoot in the ~40% range as three-point variance and his poor finishing inside is always going to hold his percentages back. Still, he has been a pretty decently efficient scoring guard and not turnover-prone over the last few seasons while being a very high impact player on both ends.

Also, it is just a little rough patch the last few games. FVV literally had 26/7/6 on good efficiency against the Mavs last week and as a whole averaged 24/3/6 on 55 TS% in the 7 games he played without Siakam through most of November, which is very good offensive production. He then played a very good floor game against the Cavs before missing everything in the last two games (1/14 on 3FGA) as part of blowout losses. He has been bad the last two games, but so has most of the team. He's not the only reason we've been blown out in back-to-back games.

check his shooting percentages since the all star break. he doesn't need to shoot a high percentage but it's preferable that he shoot a respectable percentage and he's just been awful way more often than not. as the self proclaimed leader, he needs to set the tone and do what needs to be done to spark the team and bring energy. he doesn't at all. he's a slow chucker who bogs down the offense, gets shut down by length and gets cooked by quicker guards. the games played without Siakam were mostly against poor quality teams and that's really been his calling card, putting him stats against trash teams. you could pick out good games here and there but who the **** cares if the team is going nowhere. he certainly doesn't help the team grow.

The 7 games FVV played in that span were against Chicago (twice), Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, OKC and Houston. How is that mostly trash teams? The only two that are expected to be lottery teams are OKC and Houston...and he averaged 24/3/4 on 58 TS% in those games with 24/3/7 on 54 TS% in the other 5. He was the best or second best player in our wins against the Bulls and Mavs and he was good against the Heat while he was bad against OKC and Atlanta.

FVV isn't holding the team back from growing unless you mean in a literal sense, which wouldn't surprise me since people like to make fun of his size. Basically everyone plays better and we as a team are better with FVV on the floor while someone like Scottie's USG% and production is significantly better with FVV on the floor compared to when FVV's off the floor.

not really impressed by any of those teams. Chicago is under .500 and the team lost the 2nd game, Miami was missing Bam, lost to Atlanta when the team beat them handily without FVV, Dallas is trash on the road, and blown out by OKC, a team also under .500. yeah mostly trash if you consider context.

I disagree about everyone playing better with FVV on the floor. I'd like to see the team without FVV and see how the 6'7 dudes grow as a team. The eye test evidence without FVV is promising.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

The question isn't "could we be better without Fred", it's "could we be better without Fred's unconditional 36+ minutes a game?" A Fred that is not part of the protected class, a Fred that can be benched when he has sorry performances like this. Unfortunately, less Fred is never Nick's answer. Quite the opposite actually, Nick's solution to whatever is ailing the team at any given moment is usually more Fred. And that is what powers the "trade Fred" sentiment, because the only way for Nick to play him less is if he can't play him at all.

This reminds me of the Jose Calderon situation all over again. There's some strange aura around him but the team is probably better off with someone else replacing him. FVV is best as a microwave scorer and he's no longer going to play this role. Beyond that he's not really someone who's raising anything on your team.

You need to move him before his new contact but you also need to find younger, cheaper ballhandlers who can shoot. They seem to grow in trees in the NBA so it's baffling that the Raptors don't have any of them.

Getting Rose + Quickley from the knicks would significantly improve and stabilize this team.
Question is: what do we give up in return.

[WaltFrazier]

No one can shoot now, so we're seeing the opposition just have 3 bodies in the paint and sitting on drives. That leads to a lot of run outs, and a team like the Nets with dead-eye shooters is going to feast. Some lazy D on Claxton, for sure, by a bunch of guys.

Fred's shot isn't even close right now. And Scottie had 3 amateur hour ballhandling turnovers. This is uncharacteristic of both players and so it's either injury-related, fatigue or low confidence.

It's encouraging that Siakam is scoring at will. He took a few lazy jumpers at the wrong time, but he's still looking really composed out there. OG looks really worn out from all his defensive assignments. He needs a game off.

Other than that, I think Koloko was better as the game wore on, but early on he was just overwhelmed again. Not sure why he got he start, given that he's had two bad games against Claxton already.

Anyway, as Alvin said they are probably due a team-meeting.

Koloko is not to blame for these losses, but he has regressed since his good play the first 10 games or so. But his shortcomings really point out the need for a veteran C. Boucher's too light, Birch too short and not good enough. Precious will help but wasn't playing well before injury and also undersized. I keep pushing for Poeltl but either him or another veteran C would do wonders.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

No one can shoot now, so we're seeing the opposition just have 3 bodies in the paint and sitting on drives. That leads to a lot of run outs, and a team like the Nets with dead-eye shooters is going to feast. Some lazy D on Claxton, for sure, by a bunch of guys.

Fred's shot isn't even close right now. And Scottie had 3 amateur hour ballhandling turnovers. This is uncharacteristic of both players and so it's either injury-related, fatigue or low confidence.

It's encouraging that Siakam is scoring at will. He took a few lazy jumpers at the wrong time, but he's still looking really composed out there. OG looks really worn out from all his defensive assignments. He needs a game off.

Other than that, I think Koloko was better as the game wore on, but early on he was just overwhelmed again. Not sure why he got he start, given that he's had two bad games against Claxton already.

Anyway, as Alvin said they are probably due a team-meeting.

Koloko is not to blame for these losses, but he has regressed since his good play the first 10 games or so. But his shortcomings really point out the need for a veteran C. Boucher's too light, Birch too short and not good enough. Precious will help but wasn't playing well before injury and also undersized. I keep pushing for Poeltl but either him or another veteran C would do wonders.

Maybe. You gotta go with who gives the best bang for the buck in the playoffs. I doubt Poeltl can really help that much in the playoffs. Whoever helps initiate offense in the halfcourt would be helpful and right now the most glaring need is at the guard spot.

[Dennis 37]

Gary is definitely leaving if we don't move him.

When you move a starter to the bench, you don't reduce his minutes Fred 41 minutes and Gary 26. With the way thise two were playing the minutes should have been reversed.

[ATLTimekeeper]

No one can shoot now, so we're seeing the opposition just have 3 bodies in the paint and sitting on drives. That leads to a lot of run outs, and a team like the Nets with dead-eye shooters is going to feast. Some lazy D on Claxton, for sure, by a bunch of guys.

Fred's shot isn't even close right now. And Scottie had 3 amateur hour ballhandling turnovers. This is uncharacteristic of both players and so it's either injury-related, fatigue or low confidence.

It's encouraging that Siakam is scoring at will. He took a few lazy jumpers at the wrong time, but he's still looking really composed out there. OG looks really worn out from all his defensive assignments. He needs a game off.

Other than that, I think Koloko was better as the game wore on, but early on he was just overwhelmed again. Not sure why he got he start, given that he's had two bad games against Claxton already.

Anyway, as Alvin said they are probably due a team-meeting.

Koloko is not to blame for these losses, but he has regressed since his good play the first 10 games or so. But his shortcomings really point out the need for a veteran C. Boucher's too light, Birch too short and not good enough. Precious will help but wasn't playing well before injury and also undersized. I keep pushing for Poeltl but either him or another veteran C would do wonders.

Well, yeah, with rookies you just suffer their flaws and whenever they provide something you consider it a bonus. He had a lot of good minutes in this one where Kyrie and Durant were ducking his presence, or running right to the refs.

The advantage of Precious is that he is switchable, and Boucher and Birch really aren't. They've been getting away with Thad Young as a small ball C because Boucher's feet get attacked and Birch has lost a lot of mobility. Grabbing Poeltl would be really helpful, not just because of his skillset but because he's already close with our core players and would make Scottie's life a lot easier, too.

[pingpongrac]

check his shooting percentages since the all star break. he doesn't need to shoot a high percentage but it's preferable that he shoot a respectable percentage and he's just been awful way more often than not. as the self proclaimed leader, he needs to set the tone and do what needs to be done to spark the team and bring energy. he doesn't at all. he's a slow chucker who bogs down the offense, gets shut down by length and gets cooked by quicker guards. the games played without Siakam were mostly against poor quality teams and that's really been his calling card, putting him stats against trash teams. you could pick out good games here and there but who the **** cares if the team is going nowhere. he certainly doesn't help the team grow.

The 7 games FVV played in that span were against Chicago (twice), Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, OKC and Houston. How is that mostly trash teams? The only two that are expected to be lottery teams are OKC and Houston...and he averaged 24/3/4 on 58 TS% in those games with 24/3/7 on 54 TS% in the other 5. He was the best or second best player in our wins against the Bulls and Mavs and he was good against the Heat while he was bad against OKC and Atlanta.

FVV isn't holding the team back from growing unless you mean in a literal sense, which wouldn't surprise me since people like to make fun of his size. Basically everyone plays better and we as a team are better with FVV on the floor while someone like Scottie's USG% and production is significantly better with FVV on the floor compared to when FVV's off the floor.

not really impressed by any of those teams. Chicago is under .500 and the team lost the 2nd game, Miami was missing Bam, lost to Atlanta when the team beat them handily without FVV, Dallas is trash on the road, and blown out by OKC, a team also under .500. yeah mostly trash if you consider context.

Yes, context.

We lost the 2nd game to Chicago because our starting frontcourt shot 8/29 from the field and had 7 of our 14 total turnovers. FVV (27/3/4 on 10/19 shooting with 2 turnovers) isn't the reason we lost that game.

Miami was missing Bam and Herro, but we were also missing Siakam and GTJ as well as Achiuwa and Porter. That was a good win.

We did beat Atlanta with ease earlier in the season...with Siakam+GTJ+Achiuwa while the Hawks were on a back-to-back. This time we were missing those 3 players (who gave us 62 points in the first matchup) against Atlanta and we still almost won if not for a blown dunk/layup at the end of regulation.

Dallas has been terrible on the road, but they're still a good team with one of the best players in the entire league running things for them. Without Siakam+Achiuwa+Porter, that was a big win especially considering we dug ourselves a 15-point hole in Q1.

OKC isn't great, but they've been decent this season with wins against the Clippers (twice), Mavs (one of 3 home losses for Dallas), Chicago and us. Obviously FVV had a bad game in OKC, but you can't blame one player for a 19-point loss where the opponent shoots 56% from the field.

It wasn't mostly trash.

[KingSebastian]

This loss was clearly about preparation and effort.
We played zero defense early and the energy level was non existent

Past 2 games Raps have came out like they can turn it on whenever they want...but the fact is we aren't built like that

Our identity is we play hard and defend. If we aren't doing that from tipoff then we lose, period.

Is this ok Nurse and staff not getting the players up for the game...or are the players feeling themselves?

I don't know but I predict a different start tonight in Orlando

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[JPriest]

The 7 games FVV played in that span were against Chicago (twice), Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, OKC and Houston. How is that mostly trash teams? The only two that are expected to be lottery teams are OKC and Houston...and he averaged 24/3/4 on 58 TS% in those games with 24/3/7 on 54 TS% in the other 5. He was the best or second best player in our wins against the Bulls and Mavs and he was good against the Heat while he was bad against OKC and Atlanta.

FVV isn't holding the team back from growing unless you mean in a literal sense, which wouldn't surprise me since people like to make fun of his size. Basically everyone plays better and we as a team are better with FVV on the floor while someone like Scottie's USG% and production is significantly better with FVV on the floor compared to when FVV's off the floor.

not really impressed by any of those teams. Chicago is under .500 and the team lost the 2nd game, Miami was missing Bam, lost to Atlanta when the team beat them handily without FVV, Dallas is trash on the road, and blown out by OKC, a team also under .500. yeah mostly trash if you consider context.

Yes, context.

We lost the 2nd game to Chicago because our starting frontcourt shot 8/29 from the field and had 7 of our 14 total turnovers. FVV (27/3/4 on 10/19 shooting with 2 turnovers) isn't the reason we lost that game.

Miami was missing Bam and Herro, but we were also missing Siakam and GTJ as well as Achiuwa and Porter. That was a good win.

We did beat Atlanta with ease earlier in the season...with Siakam+GTJ+Achiuwa while the Hawks were on a back-to-back. This time we were missing those 3 players (who gave us 62 points in the first matchup) against Atlanta and we still almost won if not for a blown dunk/layup at the end of regulation.

Dallas has been terrible on the road, but they're still a good team with one of the best players in the entire league running things for them. Without Siakam+Achiuwa+Porter, that was a big win especially considering we dug ourselves a 15-point hole in Q1.

OKC isn't great, but they've been decent this season with wins against the Clippers (twice), Mavs (one of 3 home losses for Dallas), Chicago and us. Obviously FVV had a bad game in OKC, but you can't blame one player for a 19-point loss where the opponent shoots 56% from the field.

It wasn't mostly trash.

Chicago's not a good team and sure, you can give FVV credit for his stats that game but it should now be considered an outlier given out things have unfolded for him since the ASB. That Miami win was mostly about OG stepping up and destroying them inside. FVV shot poorly again. The first Atlanta game was a clinical defensive shutdown of their offense. Their all star guards couldn't do anything against the length, and again, check FVV's piss poor shooting percentages the next game and compare it to Trae's production. Dallas is 1-8 on the road and recently lost to the Pistons lol. Come on. The team was on the verge of losing that game and FVV didn't shoot all that well either. Yeah FVV had a bad game against OKC but he's having too many of these bad games and it's detrimental. That's the point.

[jepjep]

Regular season is supposed to be developing players towards playoffs and hoping you win to get in. Nurse has different philosophy which is to win regular season wearing down the veterans only to lose in the playoffs. No player develops or breaks out unlike other teams. Sigh

[jepjep]

I don’t mind the losing that much if nurse recognizes early that his vets are not playing well and therefore try his bench. 1st quarter was very bad and his stuck with it and ver late timeout

[pingpongrac]

not really impressed by any of those teams. Chicago is under .500 and the team lost the 2nd game, Miami was missing Bam, lost to Atlanta when the team beat them handily without FVV, Dallas is trash on the road, and blown out by OKC, a team also under .500. yeah mostly trash if you consider context.

Yes, context.

We lost the 2nd game to Chicago because our starting frontcourt shot 8/29 from the field and had 7 of our 14 total turnovers. FVV (27/3/4 on 10/19 shooting with 2 turnovers) isn't the reason we lost that game.

Miami was missing Bam and Herro, but we were also missing Siakam and GTJ as well as Achiuwa and Porter. That was a good win.

We did beat Atlanta with ease earlier in the season...with Siakam+GTJ+Achiuwa while the Hawks were on a back-to-back. This time we were missing those 3 players (who gave us 62 points in the first matchup) against Atlanta and we still almost won if not for a blown dunk/layup at the end of regulation.

Dallas has been terrible on the road, but they're still a good team with one of the best players in the entire league running things for them. Without Siakam+Achiuwa+Porter, that was a big win especially considering we dug ourselves a 15-point hole in Q1.

OKC isn't great, but they've been decent this season with wins against the Clippers (twice), Mavs (one of 3 home losses for Dallas), Chicago and us. Obviously FVV had a bad game in OKC, but you can't blame one player for a 19-point loss where the opponent shoots 56% from the field.

It wasn't mostly trash.

Chicago's not a good team and sure, you can give FVV credit for his stats that game but it should now be considered an outlier given out things have unfolded for him since the ASB. That Miami win was mostly about OG stepping up and destroying them inside. FVV shot poorly again. The first Atlanta game was a clinical defensive shutdown of their offense. Their all star guards couldn't do anything against the length, and again, check FVV's piss poor shooting percentages the next game and compare it to Trae's production. Dallas is 1-8 on the road and recently lost to the Pistons lol. Come on. The team was on the verge of losing that game and FVV didn't shoot all that well either. Yeah FVV had a bad game against OKC but he's having too many of these bad games and it's detrimental. That's the point.

In other words, we can't give FVV any credit when he plays well, but people can **** all over him because in most of the ~30 games since the all-star break last season he hasn't shot the ball well? Come on. This is getting ridiculous.

[JPriest]

Yes, context.

We lost the 2nd game to Chicago because our starting frontcourt shot 8/29 from the field and had 7 of our 14 total turnovers. FVV (27/3/4 on 10/19 shooting with 2 turnovers) isn't the reason we lost that game.

Miami was missing Bam and Herro, but we were also missing Siakam and GTJ as well as Achiuwa and Porter. That was a good win.

We did beat Atlanta with ease earlier in the season...with Siakam+GTJ+Achiuwa while the Hawks were on a back-to-back. This time we were missing those 3 players (who gave us 62 points in the first matchup) against Atlanta and we still almost won if not for a blown dunk/layup at the end of regulation.

Dallas has been terrible on the road, but they're still a good team with one of the best players in the entire league running things for them. Without Siakam+Achiuwa+Porter, that was a big win especially considering we dug ourselves a 15-point hole in Q1.

OKC isn't great, but they've been decent this season with wins against the Clippers (twice), Mavs (one of 3 home losses for Dallas), Chicago and us. Obviously FVV had a bad game in OKC, but you can't blame one player for a 19-point loss where the opponent shoots 56% from the field.

It wasn't mostly trash.

Chicago's not a good team and sure, you can give FVV credit for his stats that game but it should now be considered an outlier given out things have unfolded for him since the ASB. That Miami win was mostly about OG stepping up and destroying them inside. FVV shot poorly again. The first Atlanta game was a clinical defensive shutdown of their offense. Their all star guards couldn't do anything against the length, and again, check FVV's piss poor shooting percentages the next game and compare it to Trae's production. Dallas is 1-8 on the road and recently lost to the Pistons lol. Come on. The team was on the verge of losing that game and FVV didn't shoot all that well either. Yeah FVV had a bad game against OKC but he's having too many of these bad games and it's detrimental. That's the point.

In other words, we can't give FVV any credit when he plays well, but people can **** all over him because in most of the ~30 games since the all-star break last season he hasn't shot the ball well? Come on. This is getting ridiculous.

no he deserves credit when he plays well but that's far and few between. his poor shooting and inability to defend quicker or bigger players hurt the team more than anything. when he was playing like CP3 prior to the ASB, he was getting all the praise in the world and rightfully deserved to make the ASG. when he started to struggle, he was still being praised for his intangibles and defense. now it appears the intangibles aren't contributing to a culture for success and his ability to effectively defend is declining. it's more so looking at it from macro perspective, where this team as whole is going and FVV's fit and contributions to sustained success rather than the rare instances when he plays well.

[Son Goku 25]

IMO both Scottie and FVV are to blame but yes, one is a 2nd year player whereas the other is a vet who has been named an all star as of last year. You can't just duck when things aren't going great and then claim to be someone when things are going your way. This year definitely isn't it. Injuries and inexperience is showing plus lack of talent and IQ perhaps but it's on the team leadership to address this. Tbh; this isn't a fun team to watch not sure what it is, I missed last game and glad I did.

The Cleveland game was a lot of fun. There have been 3 questionable blowouts, OKC, NOP and this one, that makes you wonder what they're doing the night before or where they're chemistry is at.

But, are you implying that Fred is ducking? He literally just said he's playing like ****.

I'm glad he came out and said it, respects to him but I still hope our leadership address some of these things and I get it's a long season.

[6Ft Under]

https://youtu.be/IZqZb69Zlh0

Can't lie some of his points are valid although you can smell the bias he has for Scottie. I still think this was a great video displaying the dysfunction of our team currently.

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