If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

[reanimator]

When Cade went out with the shin injury, Green had a lower TS%. Pretty dishonest to compare a 12 game sample vs someone still active.

What about their rookie season of 60+ games. There is a 5% difference in ts%

In their rookie year, 63.9 of Cade's FGs were unassisted vs 47.5 for Green, so yeah I expect his TS% to be slightly higher when he doesn't create as much. Through 12 games this year, Green's TS was lower. TBH I'm not all that passionate about this topic. Its been done ad nauseam and we are barely into year 2. No one is bringing any new insight and its the same people arguing for the same players because there is barely any new data to drastically change anyones opinion.

[big-shot-ROB]

No, I just proved why you're wrong. And now you just made it worse for yourself.

First off, Giannis is a big. He's 7 ft and relies heavily on attacking the paint, and a lot of his success comes from his ability to be physically dominant. How the hell is that not a big? What, because he scores a lot of points and is a great playmaker, that suddenly means he's not a big? That doesn't make any sense. I guess Wilt and Hakeem weren't bigs either, right?

Second, going off the previous point, that is nothing like how Kawhi and Durant play. Both are crafty players with great length and insane shooting mechanics combined with incredibly skilled foot work and ball control. Again, this is nothing like Giannis. Yes he has great length and footwork but the roots of his production comes from charging at the rim without any regard for who is in front of him. I feel like all you did there was just compare their scoring and assist numbers and conclude that Giannis plays like them. No, that's not the case. I don't deny that similarities are there with LeBron. But Giannis is definitely a lot closer to how Mobley plays on offense to how Kawhi and Durant play. To state otherwise is just flat out wrong.

Third why are you so confident that Mobley, a 21 year old in his second season, can't be the first option on a championship winning team? Let's go back to Giannis for a second... do you understand what type of player Giannis was at the age of 21? Mobley at that age is already very far ahead of him as far as being offensively skilled is concerned. Let's say that Mobley continues to develop and becomes an incredibly elite scorer on top of (most likely) being one of, if not the best defensive player in the NBA. Depending on when that happens, he could be on a team that features Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell and Jarrett Allen. All three of these men have already been all stars as of today. You're telling me that's not a championship team if Mobley is their number one option and has developed into an elite offensive player because he's a big? That spits in the face of logic.

Fourth, the whole idea that a "big can't be the number one option on a championship team" is idiotic in of itself, but your reasoning for why is even worse. We haven't seen a championship team with one as their number one option in the past ten years? So what? Even if that were the case (which, as I just proved, it's not), there is this thing called context and it's extremely important. In the past ten years, we've been living in the primes of two top ten all time greats in LeBron James and Steph Curry, who were on some of the best teams they've ever had in their careers. A big not being a number one option on a championship winning team during that time frame doesn't mean anything at all. It's just an incredibly lazy explanation for an incredibly bad take. That would be like me saying that the guy who took one three pointer in his entire career, made it, and had a perfect shooting percentage, was the greatest three point shooter of all time. My reasoning for it is just unjustifiable and no thought was put into it.

In other words, your entire point makes no sense, and I doubt you gave any actual thought to it.

1. You're an incredibly big homer. Just the way you talk about Mobley renders the conversation stupid.

2. Giannis is perimeter player and clearly not a big. He's a wing just like LeBron is a wing. If you fail to see that or acnowledge that then this conversation is stupid x2 + you wasted too many sentences to show you're just wrong

1. Literally nothing I just said suggests I am a homer, and you going the homer route instead of addressing my points suggests you’ve already lost. And nothing I’ve said about Mobley is wrong. If you think otherwise, then explain it. Don’t waste my time by calling what I say stupid if you don’t even have the brain cells to explain why.

2. Giannis is not a wing. That might be one of the most idiotic takes I’ve ever heard in my time on this forum and I’m strongly considering making it my sig. At this point you’re demonstrating two things: you don’t know what a wing is and you don’t know what a big is. Either way, you’ve somehow managed to one up the Jaren Jackson Jr take.

Now, please do explain how Giannis is a wing player and not a big. I’ll wait.

HHAHA you think me deciding to ignore your long post is you winning? LOL, I'm calling you a homer cause it looks like you think Mobley is the second coming of Garnet and Gobert combined (who, hey, heads up, weren't able to lead a team as first options) when he's been bad when Allen has been out while you keep downplaying JJJr when two years ago we use to have threads created about him with posts like yours about Mobley.

Smart people know when someone's a lost cause, specially when they just keep barking at a wall

Feel free to make that sentence your signature, that's a low bar you have there. You haven't been much around if you think me saying Giannis is closer to a wing initiator than a big is "the most idiotic take you've heard". Your claim he's a big closer to what Embiid, Jokic or Mobley do than what Tatum, LeBron or Doncic do is for starters just worse haha

What i'll do is save all of your stupid takes to comeback when Mobley fails to be all you're procaliming him to be.

Byebye

[hippesthippo]

And what are you using? Defensive efficiency or +/- that has immense noise and confounding factors from level of team play?

Green is a good defender for a 20 year old guard which is a good on ball defender on a team full of 20 year olds who don't know how to communicate and work in unison yet leading to being out of position occasionally when guarding off ball. I don't know a 20 year old guard who doesn't have that issue especially on a bad team full of other young players.

Hoollld up.

You just quoted me and told me that I was wrong and that off ball defense isn't his weakness, it's switching onto bigger players. So now you admit he's also terrible off ball.

To answer your question from earlier: I've watched 2 Rockets games this year. Nobody can watch everything and the Rockets are pretty far down my watch list, but that was enough to see that Green has a ton of upside, is an obviously good scorer, and is terrible on defense; which is all I've said about Green. No more, no less.

Thanks for acknowledging you have 2 games of watching Green.

This year, buddy. Thanks for acknowledging that Green sucks on defense.

[K_chile22]

And what are you using? Defensive efficiency or +/- that has immense noise and confounding factors from level of team play?

Green is a good defender for a 20 year old guard which is a good on ball defender on a team full of 20 year olds who don't know how to communicate and work in unison yet leading to being out of position occasionally when guarding off ball. I don't know a 20 year old guard who doesn't have that issue especially on a bad team full of other young players.

Hoollld up.

You just quoted me and told me that I was wrong and that off ball defense isn't his weakness, it's switching onto bigger players. So now you admit he's also terrible off ball.

To answer your question from earlier: I've watched 2 Rockets games this year. Nobody can watch everything and the Rockets are pretty far down my watch list, but that was enough to see that Green has a ton of upside, is an obviously good scorer, and is terrible on defense; which is all I've said about Green. No more, no less.

Thanks for acknowledging you have 2 games of watching Green.

You're being way too defensive. He has his moments that make me think as he fills out and gets more comfortable/experienced he'll be a solid defender, but it's true, he's very bad most of the time rn. Which is fine, most smaller 20 yo guards are

[K_chile22]

When Cade went out with the shin injury, Green had a lower TS%. Pretty dishonest to compare a 12 game sample vs someone still active.

What about their rookie season of 60+ games. There is a 5% difference in ts%

In their rookie year, 63.9 of Cade's FGs were unassisted vs 47.5 for Green, so yeah I expect his TS% to be slightly higher when he doesn't create as much. Through 12 games this year, Green's TS was lower. TBH I'm not all that passionate about this topic. Its been done ad nauseam and we are barely into year 2. No one is bringing any new insight and its the same people arguing for the same players because there is barely any new data to drastically change anyones opinion.

5% TS isn't a slight difference, it's quite large lol not saying you should have Green first but he's undoubtedly been much more efficient

[reanimator]

What about their rookie season of 60+ games. There is a 5% difference in ts%

In their rookie year, 63.9 of Cade's FGs were unassisted vs 47.5 for Green, so yeah I expect his TS% to be slightly higher when he doesn't create as much. Through 12 games this year, Green's TS was lower. TBH I'm not all that passionate about this topic. Its been done ad nauseam and we are barely into year 2. No one is bringing any new insight and its the same people arguing for the same players because there is barely any new data to drastically change anyones opinion.

5% TS isn't a slight difference, it's quite large lol not saying you should have Green first but he's undoubtedly been much more efficient

Its slight when one guy is creating a substantially more offense unassisted. Comparing efficiency without contextualizing roles is meaningless.

[ocelot17]

Cavs fans are setting themselves up for dissapointment if they think Mobley is going to be the next giannis. They play nothing alike.

I see a lot of people want to crown Mobley as the next Duncan, Garnett, giannis, when in reality he’s closer to being the next Bam Adebayo.

[mcfly1204]

Cavs fans are setting themselves up for dissapointment if they think Mobley is going to be the next giannis. They play nothing alike.

I see a lot of people want to crown Mobley as the next Duncan, Garnett, giannis, when in reality he’s closer to being the next Bam Adebayo.

When in doubt, hit ignorance with ignorance...

[jasonxxx102]

Sincere question. How much impact on winning would Mobley have on this Rockets squad?

He would instantly be the best player by a mile and at least make their defense respectable instead of bottom of the league

[jasonxxx102]

It is amusing anytime I ask for the film on green showing his “defense” nobody is able to pull any.

It’s almost as if he’s a bad defender or something

[TheLand13]

HHAHA you think me deciding to ignore your long post is you winning?

No, I think the fact that I've offered legitimate counters to your points, and you not even choosing to address them but reply multiple times with accusations of homerism instead is me winning. It's one of the easiest ways to out yourself as someone who knows they got nothing to counter back with.

LOL, I'm calling you a homer cause it looks like you think Mobley is the second coming of Garnet and Gobert combined (who, hey, heads up, weren't able to lead a team as first options)

First off, there are literally people who aren't even Cavaliers fans who think Mobley has top ten all time great potential. Even I don't think he has that.

Second, I myself have gone on record stating that Mobley still should have went third in the draft and that it was more logical for the Pistons and Rockets to make the choices they made. Not exactly a homor take on my part.

Third, the only thing I "think" is that you are severely underestimating what Mobley is actually capable of. I'm not making any claims as to what player I think he will become. Me calling you out for making extremely premature claims about what he can and can't do doesn't make me a homer. It makes me a person with a functioning brain.

Your claims of homerism has no merit. It was something you came up with out of desperation and it backfired.

when he's been bad when Allen has been out while you keep downplaying JJJr when two years ago we use to have threads created about him with posts like yours about Mobley.

When he's been bad when Allen has been out? What are you basing this off of? Last season? Because this season that has not been the case. In fact it's been the exact opposite. Hell, he just had a 19/13/2 game on 9/10 shooting from the field. His previous game? 16 points on 8/10 shooting against Joel Embiid, while locking him down at the other end. Before that? 18 points. Before that? 20.

These were all games where Allen didn't play.

Jesus, do you even watch Mobley play? Do you not understand how Mobley even plays? I'm starting to question just how much knowledge of Mobley you actually possess. It sounds like you don't have any actual idea as to who he is or how he plays.

Smart people know when someone's a lost cause, specially when they just keep barking at a wall

A lost cause is someone who calls Jalen Green a highly inefficient scorer.

Feel free to make that sentence your signature, that's a low bar you have there. You haven't been much around if you think me saying Giannis is closer to a wing initiator than a big is "the most idiotic take you've heard". Your claim he's a big closer to what Embiid, Jokic or Mobley do than what Tatum, LeBron or Doncic do is for starters just worse haha

What i'll do is save all of your stupid takes to comeback when Mobley fails to be all you're procaliming him to be.

Byebye

You have now been given three chances to explain your stance and all three times, you've tucked your tail and ran. It's pretty clear at this point that you were blowing smoke out of your ass and now you've realized how stupid your statement was and are refusing to admit to being wrong. This is truly a shame, because this was an easy one to get out of and all you really did was make it worse for yourself.

I suggest not posting in threads where other adults are. It's clear you aren't on their level. Maybe look for forums that are filled with 12 year olds. That seems to be on par with your level of intelligence.

[QingJames]

The first two I just don't see as players you can build an offense around unlike Green. He is collapsing defenses consistently and is starting to find the open man he consistently generates. Barnes has strength but dude hardly ever collapses defenses as he doesn't create much seperation and defenses don't care to close him out as he isn't a shooter. And I don't need an explanation why Mobley can't be a number one option. Look at his unassisted scoring rate. It's like 25% which is Rudy Golbert level of self creation.

The defensively-deficient probing perimeter scoring chucker combo guard archetype does not garner postseason success in the modern NBA.

Green will likely never be as good as Ja, Booker, Mitchell, etc. And you are going nowhere with that type of player as your best player, as we have repeatedly seen over the past decade.

Green may win a scoring title. He might average 32ppg and 5apg in his prime, wouldn’t doubt it. But he’s more likely to have the impact of a Bradley Beal on the Rockets’ win rate. Mobley likely already has a greater impact on winning that Green ever will. Won’t make that case for Barnes yet because he’s been terrible this year.

Ja definitely is a player Green would have to show even more accelerated improvement in playmaking especially if he ever wants to get near the potential of Ja.

But Booker and Mitchell?!? You gotta explain that one bro. How were Mitchell and Booker better than Green at 20? To be fair to Mitchell, you can't really compare him to 20 year old Green as he isn't even in the league at that age.

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that as good as Mitchell, Booker, Beal, Morant and guys like that are (much better than Green at this stage and maybe better than he ever will be) those guys STILL aren't good enough to be the best player on a real contender. Booker is the only one that was close, but I don't think he would have sniffed a conference finals without the CP3 trade.

It's the archetype that's a problem. High usage guards that are sieves on defense have been repeatedly shown as ineffective pieces to build a team around. Green can have great success, but not if he's the best player on his team. This is why it was clearly a mistake for the Rockets to take Green over Mobley. Barnes and Franz also have significantly better prospects of being the best player on a good-to-great team because of their skillset and position in the modern NBA.

Green will put up some great statistical numbers in his career, I am sure. He will not impact winning at the same level as a star wing or big. I sincerely doubt he ever impacts winning for the Rockets as much as Mobley is already impacting winning for the Cavs.

[Farhan0311]

The defensively-deficient probing perimeter scoring chucker combo guard archetype does not garner postseason success in the modern NBA.

Green will likely never be as good as Ja, Booker, Mitchell, etc. And you are going nowhere with that type of player as your best player, as we have repeatedly seen over the past decade.

Green may win a scoring title. He might average 32ppg and 5apg in his prime, wouldn’t doubt it. But he’s more likely to have the impact of a Bradley Beal on the Rockets’ win rate. Mobley likely already has a greater impact on winning that Green ever will. Won’t make that case for Barnes yet because he’s been terrible this year.

Ja definitely is a player Green would have to show even more accelerated improvement in playmaking especially if he ever wants to get near the potential of Ja.

But Booker and Mitchell?!? You gotta explain that one bro. How were Mitchell and Booker better than Green at 20? To be fair to Mitchell, you can't really compare him to 20 year old Green as he isn't even in the league at that age.

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that as good as Mitchell, Booker, Beal, Morant and guys like that are (much better than Green at this stage and maybe better than he ever will be) those guys STILL aren't good enough to be the best player on a real contender. Booker is the only one that was close, but I don't think he would have sniffed a conference finals without the CP3 trade.

It's the archetype that's a problem. High usage guards that are sieves on defense have been repeatedly shown as ineffective pieces to build a team around. Green can have great success, but not if he's the best player on his team. This is why it was clearly a mistake for the Rockets to take Green over Mobley. Barnes and Franz also have significantly better prospects of being the best player on a good-to-great team because of their skillset and position in the modern NBA.

Green will put up some great statistical numbers in his career, I am sure. He will not impact winning at the same level as a star wing or big. I sincerely doubt he ever impacts winning for the Rockets as much as Mobley is already impacting winning for the Cavs.

maybe it's your diction but are you saying that Booker and Mitchell were better than Green at this stage at 20? How? Green has better numbers than 20 year old Booker and Mitchell ain't even in the league yet.

Anyways I think the way you look at this is wrong. Championship teams need multiple types of archetypes. The Cavs winning any rings with Mobley as their number one offensive option? Nah. So the team still needs a number one scorer archetype.

The fact that an over the hill CP3 is all it took for the Suns to start being contenders somehow discredits the archetype of a lead scoring guard? If that's all it takes for that archetype to be contenders then it's not some "weak" archetype.

Ja is 23 dawg. He has many years to win a ring. You don't think Beal paired with someone like Embid ain't making runs in the postseason?

Teams need multiple type of archetypes.

And let's not fool our selves. How much impact on winning would Mobley have if he got drafted to a roster full of 20 year olds in complete rebuild mode? Just imagine the lack of consistent quality looks Mobley would have on tla team with KPJ as the point guard. Mobley is a player that currently is heavily dependent on pg play as 25% of his fgm are unassisted. So the team around him is going to greatly impact his production.

It's crazy how people call a young prospect as more of a winner merely from being drafted to a significantly better situation. Apparently that's all it takes.

[QingJames]

Ja definitely is a player Green would have to show even more accelerated improvement in playmaking especially if he ever wants to get near the potential of Ja.

But Booker and Mitchell?!? You gotta explain that one bro. How were Mitchell and Booker better than Green at 20? To be fair to Mitchell, you can't really compare him to 20 year old Green as he isn't even in the league at that age.

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that as good as Mitchell, Booker, Beal, Morant and guys like that are (much better than Green at this stage and maybe better than he ever will be) those guys STILL aren't good enough to be the best player on a real contender. Booker is the only one that was close, but I don't think he would have sniffed a conference finals without the CP3 trade.

It's the archetype that's a problem. High usage guards that are sieves on defense have been repeatedly shown as ineffective pieces to build a team around. Green can have great success, but not if he's the best player on his team. This is why it was clearly a mistake for the Rockets to take Green over Mobley. Barnes and Franz also have significantly better prospects of being the best player on a good-to-great team because of their skillset and position in the modern NBA.

Green will put up some great statistical numbers in his career, I am sure. He will not impact winning at the same level as a star wing or big. I sincerely doubt he ever impacts winning for the Rockets as much as Mobley is already impacting winning for the Cavs.

maybe it's your diction but are you saying that Booker and Mitchell were better than Green at this stage at 20? How? Green has better numbers than 20 year old Booker and Mitchell ain't even in the league yet.

Anyways I think the way you look at this is wrong. Championship teams need multiple types of archetypes. The Cavs winning any rings with Mobley as their number one offensive option? Nah. So the team still needs a number one scorer archetype.

The fact that an over the hill CP3 is all it took for the Suns to start being contenders somehow discredits the archetype of a lead scoring guard? If that's all it takes for that archetype to be contenders then it's not some "weak" archetype.

Ja is 23 dawg. He has many years to win a ring. You don't think Beal paired with someone like Embid ain't making runs in the postseason?

Teams need multiple type of archetypes.

And let's not fool our selves. How much impact on winning would Mobley have if he got drafted to a roster full of 20 year olds in complete rebuild mode?

We still are having a miscommunication I think. I'm not saying those guys were better than Green at 20 because that doesn't matter to me at all. It's not like development is linear in any way, shape or form. I'm saying those guys are all really good players right now - players who, if Green became their equal, would be a great development outcome for him - and yet none of them are remotely good enough to be the best player on a championship team.

You're right that championship teams need multiple types of players. Never said otherwise. We're talking about being the best player on a legitimate contending team, though. If you paired Beal with Embiid, who is the best player in that pairing? Embiid by a longshot, right? Booker and CP3 are the only duo where you can make a case that Booker was the best player, but I think most knowledgable basketball fans will readily admit that CP3 was clearly the best player in the year they made the finals. Saying "that's all it takes for that archetype to be contenders" is laughable considering CP3 is one of the greatest point guards of all time. Not as though guys like him grow on trees. Jalen Green is much more likely to never play with as skilled a point guard as 2020-2021 CP3 than he is to play next to someone of that caliber.

Mobley might have only impacted the roster by a few wins more than Green this year. What does that have to do with anything? Aren't we projecting into the future? Mobley is already a much more impactful player than Green and that's not likely to diminish as both players improve.

[Farhan0311]

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that as good as Mitchell, Booker, Beal, Morant and guys like that are (much better than Green at this stage and maybe better than he ever will be) those guys STILL aren't good enough to be the best player on a real contender. Booker is the only one that was close, but I don't think he would have sniffed a conference finals without the CP3 trade.

It's the archetype that's a problem. High usage guards that are sieves on defense have been repeatedly shown as ineffective pieces to build a team around. Green can have great success, but not if he's the best player on his team. This is why it was clearly a mistake for the Rockets to take Green over Mobley. Barnes and Franz also have significantly better prospects of being the best player on a good-to-great team because of their skillset and position in the modern NBA.

Green will put up some great statistical numbers in his career, I am sure. He will not impact winning at the same level as a star wing or big. I sincerely doubt he ever impacts winning for the Rockets as much as Mobley is already impacting winning for the Cavs.

maybe it's your diction but are you saying that Booker and Mitchell were better than Green at this stage at 20? How? Green has better numbers than 20 year old Booker and Mitchell ain't even in the league yet.

Anyways I think the way you look at this is wrong. Championship teams need multiple types of archetypes. The Cavs winning any rings with Mobley as their number one offensive option? Nah. So the team still needs a number one scorer archetype.

The fact that an over the hill CP3 is all it took for the Suns to start being contenders somehow discredits the archetype of a lead scoring guard? If that's all it takes for that archetype to be contenders then it's not some "weak" archetype.

Ja is 23 dawg. He has many years to win a ring. You don't think Beal paired with someone like Embid ain't making runs in the postseason?

Teams need multiple type of archetypes.

And let's not fool our selves. How much impact on winning would Mobley have if he got drafted to a roster full of 20 year olds in complete rebuild mode?

We still are having a miscommunication I think. I'm not saying those guys were better than Green at 20 because that doesn't matter to me at all. It's not like development is linear in any way, shape or form. I'm saying those guys are all really good players right now - players who, if Green became their equal, would be a great development outcome for him - and yet none of them are remotely good enough to be the best player on a championship team.

You're right that championship teams need multiple types of players. Never said otherwise. We're talking about being the best player on a legitimate contending team, though. If you paired Beal with Embiid, who is the best player in that pairing? Embiid by a longshot, right? Booker and CP3 are the only duo where you can make a case that Booker was the best player, but I think most knowledgable basketball fans will readily admit that CP3 was clearly the best player in the year they made the finals. Saying "that's all it takes for that archetype to be contenders" is laughable considering CP3 is one of the greatest point guards of all time. Not as though guys like him grow on trees. Jalen Green is much more likely to never play with as skilled a point guard as 2020-2021 CP3 than he is to play next to someone of that caliber.

Mobley might have only impacted the roster by a few wins more than Green this year. What does that have to do with anything? Aren't we projecting into the future? Mobley is already a much more impactful player than Green and that's not likely to diminish as both players improve.

Mobley is a "impactful " player because he's on a competent team around him. This why I hate advanced stats. It has fried people's brains because they don't understand confounding factors. These stats are very team reliant.

No, Mobley would not add any wins to the current Rockets lol. Imagine him next to JR Smith as pg which is what KPJ essentially is. Again, 25% of his attempts are self created. He is the type of player at his stage that is heavily reliant on the team around him.

Defense is a very team oriented concept. Communication and chemistry is vital. Mobley on a team around a bunch of 20 year olds isn't going to impact defense much.

I think Jabari Smith Jr is exactly the type of player who if he was drafted to a team like the Cavs, people would be clamouring about his impact on winning because he is a switchable defender but is almost useless his first 15 or so games in the Rockets team because you simply can't impact much winning when all your other teammates are 19 or 20.

And I don't understand your statement about "progression isn't linear".

As of now Green is top 10 all time in NBA history for most ppg for a 20 year old. Only like 1 person on the list(Tyreke Evans) never amounted to much. So the odds of him being better than Booker ain't astronomical.

And just following this league and paying attention to Booker when he was 20, the simple eye test tells me Green has specific traits that are superior to 20 year old Booker and that's ball handling and explosion. Two things that I'm confident will make him at the very least elevate to Booker's level. Baring severe injuries, I think Booker is at this point near Green's floor when he reaches his prime.

[jameslayfa342]

maybe it's your diction but are you saying that Booker and Mitchell were better than Green at this stage at 20? How? Green has better numbers than 20 year old Booker and Mitchell ain't even in the league yet.

Anyways I think the way you look at this is wrong. Championship teams need multiple types of archetypes. The Cavs winning any rings with Mobley as their number one offensive option? Nah. So the team still needs a number one scorer archetype.

The fact that an over the hill CP3 is all it took for the Suns to start being contenders somehow discredits the archetype of a lead scoring guard? If that's all it takes for that archetype to be contenders then it's not some "weak" archetype.

Ja is 23 dawg. He has many years to win a ring. You don't think Beal paired with someone like Embid ain't making runs in the postseason?

Teams need multiple type of archetypes.

And let's not fool our selves. How much impact on winning would Mobley have if he got drafted to a roster full of 20 year olds in complete rebuild mode?

We still are having a miscommunication I think. I'm not saying those guys were better than Green at 20 because that doesn't matter to me at all. It's not like development is linear in any way, shape or form. I'm saying those guys are all really good players right now - players who, if Green became their equal, would be a great development outcome for him - and yet none of them are remotely good enough to be the best player on a championship team.

You're right that championship teams need multiple types of players. Never said otherwise. We're talking about being the best player on a legitimate contending team, though. If you paired Beal with Embiid, who is the best player in that pairing? Embiid by a longshot, right? Booker and CP3 are the only duo where you can make a case that Booker was the best player, but I think most knowledgable basketball fans will readily admit that CP3 was clearly the best player in the year they made the finals. Saying "that's all it takes for that archetype to be contenders" is laughable considering CP3 is one of the greatest point guards of all time. Not as though guys like him grow on trees. Jalen Green is much more likely to never play with as skilled a point guard as 2020-2021 CP3 than he is to play next to someone of that caliber.

Mobley might have only impacted the roster by a few wins more than Green this year. What does that have to do with anything? Aren't we projecting into the future? Mobley is already a much more impactful player than Green and that's not likely to diminish as both players improve.

Mobley is a "impactful " player because he's on a competent team around him. This why I hate advanced stats. It has fried people's brains because they don't understand confounding factors. These stats are very team reliant.

No, Mobley would not add any wins to the current Rockets lol. Imagine him next to JR Smith as pg which is what KPJ essentially is.

Defense is a very team oriented concept. Communication and chemistry is vital. Mobley on a team around a bunch of 20 year olds isn't going to impact defense much.

I think Jabari Smith Jr is exactly the type of player who if he was drafted to a team like the Cavs, people would be clamouring about his impact on winning because he is a switchable defender but is almost useless his first 15 or so games in the Rockets team because you simply can't impact much winning when all your other teammates are 19 or 20.

This is a hot take I can get behind. Would also add we're 20 games into their rookie seasons, will be interesting to see how they fare at game 40/60/80.

[big-shot-ROB]

HHAHA you think me deciding to ignore your long post is you winning?

No, I think the fact that I've offered legitimate counters to your points, and you not even choosing to address them but reply multiple times with accusations of homerism instead is me winning. It's one of the easiest ways to out yourself as someone who knows they got nothing to counter back with.

LOL, I'm calling you a homer cause it looks like you think Mobley is the second coming of Garnet and Gobert combined (who, hey, heads up, weren't able to lead a team as first options)

First off, there are literally people who aren't even Cavaliers fans who think Mobley has top ten all time great potential. Even I don't think he has that.

Second, I myself have gone on record stating that Mobley still should have went third in the draft and that it was more logical for the Pistons and Rockets to make the choices they made. Not exactly a homor take on my part.

Third, the only thing I "think" is that you are severely underestimating what Mobley is actually capable of. I'm not making any claims as to what player I think he will become. Me calling you out for making extremely premature claims about what he can and can't do doesn't make me a homer. It makes me a person with a functioning brain.

Your claims of homerism has no merit. It was something you came up with out of desperation and it backfired.

when he's been bad when Allen has been out while you keep downplaying JJJr when two years ago we use to have threads created about him with posts like yours about Mobley.

When he's been bad when Allen has been out? What are you basing this off of? Last season? Because this season that has not been the case. In fact it's been the exact opposite. Hell, he just had a 19/13/2 game on 9/10 shooting from the field. His previous game? 16 points on 8/10 shooting against Joel Embiid, while locking him down at the other end. Before that? 18 points. Before that? 20.

These were all games where Allen didn't play.

Jesus, do you even watch Mobley play? Do you not understand how Mobley even plays? I'm starting to question just how much knowledge of Mobley you actually possess. It sounds like you don't have any actual idea as to who he is or how he plays.

Smart people know when someone's a lost cause, specially when they just keep barking at a wall

A lost cause is someone who calls Jalen Green a highly inefficient scorer.

Feel free to make that sentence your signature, that's a low bar you have there. You haven't been much around if you think me saying Giannis is closer to a wing initiator than a big is "the most idiotic take you've heard". Your claim he's a big closer to what Embiid, Jokic or Mobley do than what Tatum, LeBron or Doncic do is for starters just worse haha

What i'll do is save all of your stupid takes to comeback when Mobley fails to be all you're procaliming him to be.

Byebye

You have now been given three chances to explain your stance and all three times, you've tucked your tail and ran. It's pretty clear at this point that you were blowing smoke out of your ass and now you've realized how stupid your statement was and are refusing to admit to being wrong. This is truly a shame, because this was an easy one to get out of and all you really did was make it worse for yourself.

I suggest not posting in threads where other adults are. It's clear you aren't on their level. Maybe look for forums that are filled with 12 year olds. That seems to be on par with your level of intelligence.

I have plenty to back up my claims but this discussion is pointless when you fail to acnowledge Giannis is not a big but a forward in a primary initatior role, whic Mobley is NOT and very doubtfully WILL EVER BE. Any dicussion past the point of us not agreeing there is not useful.

I'd be glad for you to show me anyone with two brain cells that thinks Mobley has top ten all-time potential. How can you say you're not making any claims of what player he'll become when just two posts ago you said this:

"Mobley continues to develop and becomes an incredibly elite scorer on top of (most likely) being one of, if not the best defensive player in the NBA"

Last season he looked like a beast defender until Allen when out where he was exposed. He hasn't done anything this season to claim that conversation back (granted those conversations were overhyping him to an extreme). I'm just saying let's not go overboard when this exact threads where on the GB 3 years ago about JJJr, who you're extremely direspecting and could very possibly be one of the outcomes of Mobley's impact.

"I suggest not posting in threads where other adults are. It's clear you aren't on their level. Maybe look for forums that are filled with 12 year olds. That seems to be on par with your level of intelligence."

This line is completly over the top when all I did was say the conversation was stupid given you were wrong about saying Giannis is a big.

You have no idea what my age is, and by the level of pettiness you display I'm 100% sure you're closer to 12 than I am. Just assuming anyone who disagrees with you is 12 says more about your childishness than mine. And me refusing to continue to lose time with you has nothing to do of wether i think my claim has backup or hasn't. Which it has.

Mobley is a big like Embiid or Jokic. Giannis game on offense doesn't resemble Jokic or Embiid's at all, and by that extension Mobley's. Giannis operates on the perimeter as primary initiator from the forward position. Mobley's game is not that one, will probably never be and therefore he can't be the main player on a championship team, because, as I've said, no one has won a ring the past few years like that.

As a matter fact, no one has one a championship without the main player being a forward primary initator outside of the Ws on 2015 and it took the greatest shooter of all time + an incredibly well built team.

Welcome to my ingore list:)

[KazuoOda]

HHAHA you think me deciding to ignore your long post is you winning?

No, I think the fact that I've offered legitimate counters to your points, and you not even choosing to address them but reply multiple times with accusations of homerism instead is me winning. It's one of the easiest ways to out yourself as someone who knows they got nothing to counter back with.

LOL, I'm calling you a homer cause it looks like you think Mobley is the second coming of Garnet and Gobert combined (who, hey, heads up, weren't able to lead a team as first options)

First off, there are literally people who aren't even Cavaliers fans who think Mobley has top ten all time great potential. Even I don't think he has that.

Second, I myself have gone on record stating that Mobley still should have went third in the draft and that it was more logical for the Pistons and Rockets to make the choices they made. Not exactly a homor take on my part.

Third, the only thing I "think" is that you are severely underestimating what Mobley is actually capable of. I'm not making any claims as to what player I think he will become. Me calling you out for making extremely premature claims about what he can and can't do doesn't make me a homer. It makes me a person with a functioning brain.

Your claims of homerism has no merit. It was something you came up with out of desperation and it backfired.

when he's been bad when Allen has been out while you keep downplaying JJJr when two years ago we use to have threads created about him with posts like yours about Mobley.

When he's been bad when Allen has been out? What are you basing this off of? Last season? Because this season that has not been the case. In fact it's been the exact opposite. Hell, he just had a 19/13/2 game on 9/10 shooting from the field. His previous game? 16 points on 8/10 shooting against Joel Embiid, while locking him down at the other end. Before that? 18 points. Before that? 20.

These were all games where Allen didn't play.

Jesus, do you even watch Mobley play? Do you not understand how Mobley even plays? I'm starting to question just how much knowledge of Mobley you actually possess. It sounds like you don't have any actual idea as to who he is or how he plays.

Smart people know when someone's a lost cause, specially when they just keep barking at a wall

A lost cause is someone who calls Jalen Green a highly inefficient scorer.

Feel free to make that sentence your signature, that's a low bar you have there. You haven't been much around if you think me saying Giannis is closer to a wing initiator than a big is "the most idiotic take you've heard". Your claim he's a big closer to what Embiid, Jokic or Mobley do than what Tatum, LeBron or Doncic do is for starters just worse haha

What i'll do is save all of your stupid takes to comeback when Mobley fails to be all you're procaliming him to be.

Byebye

You have now been given three chances to explain your stance and all three times, you've tucked your tail and ran. It's pretty clear at this point that you were blowing smoke out of your ass and now you've realized how stupid your statement was and are refusing to admit to being wrong. This is truly a shame, because this was an easy one to get out of and all you really did was make it worse for yourself.

I suggest not posting in threads where other adults are. It's clear you aren't on their level. Maybe look for forums that are filled with 12 year olds. That seems to be on par with your level of intelligence.

I have plenty to back up my claims but this discussion is pointless when you fail to acnowledge Giannis is not a big but a forward in a primary initatior role, whic Mobley is NOT and very doubtfully WILL EVER BE. Any dicussion past the point of us not agreeing there is not useful.

I'd be glad for you to show me anyone with two brain cells that thinks Mobley has top ten all-time potential. How can you say you're not making any claims of what player he'll become when just two posts ago you said this:

"Mobley continues to develop and becomes an incredibly elite scorer on top of (most likely) being one of, if not the best defensive player in the NBA"

Last season he looked like a beast defender until Allen when out where he was exposed. He hasn't done anything this season to claim that conversation back (granted those conversations were overhyping him to an extreme). I'm just saying let's not go overboard when this exact threads where on the GB 3 years ago about JJJr, who you're extremely direspecting and could very possibly be one of the outcomes of Mobley's impact.

"I suggest not posting in threads where other adults are. It's clear you aren't on their level. Maybe look for forums that are filled with 12 year olds. That seems to be on par with your level of intelligence."

This line is completly over the top when all I did was say the conversation was stupid given you were wrong about saying Giannis is a big.

You have no idea what my age is, and by the level of pettiness you display I'm 100% sure you're closer to 12 than I am. Just assuming anyone who disagrees with you is 12 says more about your childishness than mine. And me refusing to continue to lose time with you has nothing to do of wether i think my claim has backup or hasn't. Which it has.

Mobley is a big like Embiid or Jokic. Giannis game on offense doesn't resemble Jokic or Embiid's at all, and by that extension Mobley's. Giannis operates on the perimeter as primary initiator from the forward position. Mobley's game is not that one, will probably never be and therefore he can't be the main player on a championship team, because, as I've said, no one has won a ring the past few years like that.

As a matter fact, no one has one a championship without the main player being a forward primary initator outside of the Ws on 2015 and it took the greatest shooter of all time + an incredibly well built team.

Welcome to my ingore list:)

Not sure you're paying attention to Mobley while Allen has been out this year.
We're talking about a big thats in his second year.

[Hoop Heavy]

I'm saying the same thing I did a year ago ...

Unless you are going to completely ignore the trend of the best teams to stock two way players instead of specialists ... it seems to me that reasonably Cade, Mobley and Barnes could have gone one, two, three in many orders depending on who was picking and when ... so I believe strongly that it was Houston who blew the draft - taking Green instead of Barnes or even Wagner (Kuminga and Giddy maybe have the potential to be the same kind of player) and Green could drop all the way to seventh in my book.

Still, they are all still super young and it will be interesting to see who bubbles to the top after five years or so. Short of injury, I'm still betting on Mobley and Barnes going first and second in a mock redraft then, but Cade may still surprise me.

Not that I'm saying Green is a scrub either - he's a dynamic scorer.

Still, guys whose youth is based mostly on athleticism have to develop I.Q. or have a short peak - they are one injury away from being average. Meanwhile guys like Mobley, Barnes, Wagner and Giddy are already showing off their advanced understanding of the game. Sengun seems to have those kind of smarts too - although not maybe enough athleticism or length to be completely dominant at his position.

[TheLand13]

HHAHA you think me deciding to ignore your long post is you winning?

No, I think the fact that I've offered legitimate counters to your points, and you not even choosing to address them but reply multiple times with accusations of homerism instead is me winning. It's one of the easiest ways to out yourself as someone who knows they got nothing to counter back with.

LOL, I'm calling you a homer cause it looks like you think Mobley is the second coming of Garnet and Gobert combined (who, hey, heads up, weren't able to lead a team as first options)

First off, there are literally people who aren't even Cavaliers fans who think Mobley has top ten all time great potential. Even I don't think he has that.

Second, I myself have gone on record stating that Mobley still should have went third in the draft and that it was more logical for the Pistons and Rockets to make the choices they made. Not exactly a homor take on my part.

Third, the only thing I "think" is that you are severely underestimating what Mobley is actually capable of. I'm not making any claims as to what player I think he will become. Me calling you out for making extremely premature claims about what he can and can't do doesn't make me a homer. It makes me a person with a functioning brain.

Your claims of homerism has no merit. It was something you came up with out of desperation and it backfired.

when he's been bad when Allen has been out while you keep downplaying JJJr when two years ago we use to have threads created about him with posts like yours about Mobley.

When he's been bad when Allen has been out? What are you basing this off of? Last season? Because this season that has not been the case. In fact it's been the exact opposite. Hell, he just had a 19/13/2 game on 9/10 shooting from the field. His previous game? 16 points on 8/10 shooting against Joel Embiid, while locking him down at the other end. Before that? 18 points. Before that? 20.

These were all games where Allen didn't play.

Jesus, do you even watch Mobley play? Do you not understand how Mobley even plays? I'm starting to question just how much knowledge of Mobley you actually possess. It sounds like you don't have any actual idea as to who he is or how he plays.

Smart people know when someone's a lost cause, specially when they just keep barking at a wall

A lost cause is someone who calls Jalen Green a highly inefficient scorer.

Feel free to make that sentence your signature, that's a low bar you have there. You haven't been much around if you think me saying Giannis is closer to a wing initiator than a big is "the most idiotic take you've heard". Your claim he's a big closer to what Embiid, Jokic or Mobley do than what Tatum, LeBron or Doncic do is for starters just worse haha

What i'll do is save all of your stupid takes to comeback when Mobley fails to be all you're procaliming him to be.

Byebye

You have now been given three chances to explain your stance and all three times, you've tucked your tail and ran. It's pretty clear at this point that you were blowing smoke out of your ass and now you've realized how stupid your statement was and are refusing to admit to being wrong. This is truly a shame, because this was an easy one to get out of and all you really did was make it worse for yourself.

I suggest not posting in threads where other adults are. It's clear you aren't on their level. Maybe look for forums that are filled with 12 year olds. That seems to be on par with your level of intelligence.

I have plenty to back up my claims but this discussion is pointless when you fail to acnowledge Giannis is not a big but a forward in a primary initatior role, whic Mobley is NOT and very doubtfully WILL EVER BE. Any dicussion past the point of us not agreeing there is not useful.

I'd be glad for you to show me anyone with two brain cells that thinks Mobley has top ten all-time potential. How can you say you're not making any claims of what player he'll become when just two posts ago you said this:

"Mobley continues to develop and becomes an incredibly elite scorer on top of (most likely) being one of, if not the best defensive player in the NBA"

Last season he looked like a beast defender until Allen when out where he was exposed. He hasn't done anything this season to claim that conversation back (granted those conversations were overhyping him to an extreme). I'm just saying let's not go overboard when this exact threads where on the GB 3 years ago about JJJr, who you're extremely direspecting and could very possibly be one of the outcomes of Mobley's impact.

"I suggest not posting in threads where other adults are. It's clear you aren't on their level. Maybe look for forums that are filled with 12 year olds. That seems to be on par with your level of intelligence."

This line is completly over the top when all I did was say the conversation was stupid given you were wrong about saying Giannis is a big.

You have no idea what my age is, and by the level of pettiness you display I'm 100% sure you're closer to 12 than I am. Just assuming anyone who disagrees with you is 12 says more about your childishness than mine. And me refusing to continue to lose time with you has nothing to do of wether i think my claim has backup or hasn't. Which it has.

Mobley is a big like Embiid or Jokic. Giannis game on offense doesn't resemble Jokic or Embiid's at all, and by that extension Mobley's. Giannis operates on the perimeter as primary initiator from the forward position. Mobley's game is not that one, will probably never be and therefore he can't be the main player on a championship team, because, as I've said, no one has won a ring the past few years like that.

As a matter fact, no one has one a championship without the main player being a forward primary initator outside of the Ws on 2015 and it took the greatest shooter of all time + an incredibly well built team.

Welcome to my ingore list:)

Oh boy.

So you purposely leave out the context of that statement that I make. You have to be extremely desperate at this point.

First off, for those who don’t feel like going back to read, I said point blank “let’s say”. LET’S SAY. That means I am describing a hypothetical scenario. This is one of the most pathetic attempts at a gotcha moment I’ve ever seen. At no point do I ever predict that Mobley will become annoying close to what you are describing. You got nothing and you have failed, hard.

I am going to continue to **** all over the JJJ comparison. I’m not disrespecting him at all. The reason it’s an idiotic comparison is because JJJ is a 24 year old in his fourth season in the league. You don’t make claims about someone like that. Not only that, but the amount of hype JJJ got isn’t anything close to what Mobley is getting now.

Again, it’s very clear at this point that you haven’t been watching Mobley play at all. He’s been excellent so far in games Allen hasn’t played in. It’s been a complete 180.

THAT’S your argument for why Giannis isn’t a big? So… explain to me… how is Mobley a big? Do you not realize that Mobley plays a lot like that as well? He likes to operate a lot from the perimeter and attack the defense too. Your lack of understanding of Mobley’s game completely kills your entire argument.

Do not complain about how I’m addressing you. You chose to belittle me by claiming what I’m saying is making the conversation stupid. You get no sympathy from me.

Welcome to your ignore list? Don’t worry, you can still see notifications on posts from me. So it doesn’t matter.

Oh and by the way, Giannis is still a big.