If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

[Farhan0311]

I'm saying the same thing I did a year ago ...

Unless you are going to completely ignore the trend of the best teams to stock two way players instead of specialists ... it seems to me that reasonably Cade, Mobley and Barnes could have gone one, two, three in many orders depending on who was picking and when ... so I believe strongly that it was Houston who blew the draft - taking Green instead of Barnes or even Wagner (Kuminga and Giddy maybe have the potential to be the same kind of player) and Green could drop all the way to seventh in my book.

Still, they are all still super young and it will be interesting to see who bubbles to the top after five years or so. Short of injury, I'm still betting on Mobley and Barnes going first and second in a mock redraft then, but Cade may still surprise me.

Not that I'm saying Green is a scrub either - he's a dynamic scorer.

Still, guys whose youth is based mostly on athleticism have to develop I.Q. or have a short peak - they are one injury away from being average. Meanwhile guys like Mobley, Barnes, Wagner and Giddy are already showing off their advanced understanding of the game. Sengun seems to have those kind of smarts too - although not maybe enough athleticism or length to be completely dominant at his position.

Do you even have any clue what Green's game is?

If he was drafted on purely athleticism, then he would get drafted below Kuminga. He has the best dribble seperation ability out of the class and possibly will be the best shooter in the class. He generates the most open looks out of his class because he collapses defenses the most. Over time he's seeing the open teammates he's generating more and more often (5+ assists in 9/11 games).

If a player like Barnes has "higher IQ" than Green it would show by now bud. Barnes is older, has better spacing, better teammates, better pgs etc around him. He's also a big who on average are more efficient than guards and yet he has a 5% ts disadvantage over Green.

[TheLand13]

Cavs fans are setting themselves up for dissapointment if they think Mobley is going to be the next giannis. They play nothing alike.

I see a lot of people want to crown Mobley as the next Duncan, Garnett, giannis, when in reality he’s closer to being the next Bam Adebayo.

I don’t think anyone that I’ve seen expects Mobley to be the next Giannis.

If I’m giving my current realistic expectation for what Mobley will actually be… it’s this (keep in mind, it’s still way too early to say):

Mobley will be a top defensive player in the league, and will probably have a couple DPOY awards under his belt. He will be a walking double double and will probably turn into a pretty damn good offensive player.

The thing that makes me confident about the latter is how good he has played at the center position this season. He’s been able to score more on his own, using his own skills and quickness to find scoring opportunities rather than rely heavily on plays set up for him like last season. He’s demonstrated a surprisingly quick growth in his ability to attack defenses from the perimeter. That’s going to make him difficult to contain if he puts on muscle.

His passing and playmaking abilities, for whatever reason, continues to get underrated. I don’t think people understand how good he already is in that department.

I have no idea how good of a shooter he’ll turn out to be. He has not shown any improvement in that regard this season. But then again, I don’t know how much effort he’s put into improving that aspect of his game.

So… in other words… I think he’ll be a top ten, if not top five player in the league one day. I can’t for the life of me see him being the best player in the game. I would LOVE to be wrong about that. All of that depends on how good he actually becomes offensively.

[reanimator]

He generates the most open looks out of his class because he collapses defenses the most.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Sophomore year:


Rookie year:


I expect Green to improve as a passer. He does draw help and he is a willing passer but some of the other guys simply make better reads and/or have the ball more.

[Hoop Heavy]

I'm saying the same thing I did a year ago ...

Unless you are going to completely ignore the trend of the best teams to stock two way players instead of specialists ... it seems to me that reasonably Cade, Mobley and Barnes could have gone one, two, three in many orders depending on who was picking and when ... so I believe strongly that it was Houston who blew the draft - taking Green instead of Barnes or even Wagner (Kuminga and Giddy maybe have the potential to be the same kind of player) and Green could drop all the way to seventh in my book.

Still, they are all still super young and it will be interesting to see who bubbles to the top after five years or so. Short of injury, I'm still betting on Mobley and Barnes going first and second in a mock redraft then, but Cade may still surprise me.

Not that I'm saying Green is a scrub either - he's a dynamic scorer.

Still, guys whose youth is based mostly on athleticism have to develop I.Q. or have a short peak - they are one injury away from being average. Meanwhile guys like Mobley, Barnes, Wagner and Giddy are already showing off their advanced understanding of the game. Sengun seems to have those kind of smarts too - although not maybe enough athleticism or length to be completely dominant at his position.

Do you even have any clue what Green's game is?

If he was drafted on purely athleticism, then he would get drafted below Kuminga. He has the best dribble seperation ability out of the class and possibly will be the best shooter in the class. He generates the most open looks out of his class because he collapses defenses the most. Over time he's seeing the open teammates he's generating more and more often (5+ assists in 9/11 games).

If a player like Barnes has "higher IQ" than Green it would show by now bud. Barnes is older, has better spacing, better teammates, better pgs etc around him. He's also a big who on average are more efficient than guards and yet he has a 5% ts disadvantage over Green.

Your points don't seem to destroy my statements. Yes, he's a gifted scorer. That's most of what he's got going.

Unlike Mobley and Barnes though, he'll never be able to guard anybody but tiny guards down low - in a switch everything defensive scheme, he'll just be getting dunked on. He better have something more though to make up for his lack of defensive prowess.

[Farhan0311]

I'm saying the same thing I did a year ago ...

Unless you are going to completely ignore the trend of the best teams to stock two way players instead of specialists ... it seems to me that reasonably Cade, Mobley and Barnes could have gone one, two, three in many orders depending on who was picking and when ... so I believe strongly that it was Houston who blew the draft - taking Green instead of Barnes or even Wagner (Kuminga and Giddy maybe have the potential to be the same kind of player) and Green could drop all the way to seventh in my book.

Still, they are all still super young and it will be interesting to see who bubbles to the top after five years or so. Short of injury, I'm still betting on Mobley and Barnes going first and second in a mock redraft then, but Cade may still surprise me.

Not that I'm saying Green is a scrub either - he's a dynamic scorer.

Still, guys whose youth is based mostly on athleticism have to develop I.Q. or have a short peak - they are one injury away from being average. Meanwhile guys like Mobley, Barnes, Wagner and Giddy are already showing off their advanced understanding of the game. Sengun seems to have those kind of smarts too - although not maybe enough athleticism or length to be completely dominant at his position.

Do you even have any clue what Green's game is?

If he was drafted on purely athleticism, then he would get drafted below Kuminga. He has the best dribble seperation ability out of the class and possibly will be the best shooter in the class. He generates the most open looks out of his class because he collapses defenses the most. Over time he's seeing the open teammates he's generating more and more often (5+ assists in 9/11 games).

If a player like Barnes has "higher IQ" than Green it would show by now bud. Barnes is older, has better spacing, better teammates, better pgs etc around him. He's also a big who on average are more efficient than guards and yet he has a 5% ts disadvantage over Green.

Your points don't seem to destroy my statements. Yes, he's a gifted scorer. That's most of what he's got going.

Unlike Mobley and Barnes though, he'll never be able to guard anybody but tiny guards down low - in a switch everything defensive scheme, he'll just be getting dunked on. He better have something more though to make up for his lack of defensive prowess.

I'm just really perplexed about the modern hiptser fan that completely dismisses scoring as a talent. It's like you'd chuck a PS5 controller at Bill Russel for saying "this game is and always has been about buckets".

Yes he does bring something else to the table since he can't guard bigs and that is projected elite scoring and an ability to collapse defenses at an elite level(create open looks for teammates) due to elite dribble seperation.

Imagine thinking a player fails because they can't guard big men. Oh my I guess Ja is a failure. Curry is a failure. Booker is a failure.

[Farhan0311]

He generates the most open looks out of his class because he collapses defenses the most.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Sophomore year:


Rookie year:


I expect Green to improve as a passer. He does draw help and he is a willing passer but some of the other guys simply make better reads and/or have the ball more.

You are entirely missing my point.

I'm saying Green generates more open looks by collapsing defenses. His ability to create dribble seperation easily which requires help defense to step in creates open looks.

There is a difference between being good at reads which Giddey is good at and being good at actually collapsing defenses which guys like Giddey and even Cade aren't good at.

Green has been a elite scorer his entire life which means he hasn't worked on his reads and passing as much as Cade or Giddey but he's certainly developing his ability to make the quick reads.


I'm saying that Green physically actually creates the most open looks for his teammates. At this time he doesn't actually find them as well as a Cade or Giddey. Eventually he'll be competent enough where he doesn't ever have to be as great a making great reads. He just needs to make the simple reads because of how easily he collapses defenses relative to his class.

[BallerTalk]

You're being way too defensive.

Not everyone is a capitulator.
His defensiveness directly counters the asininity of some of these takes.

[reanimator]

He generates the most open looks out of his class because he collapses defenses the most.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Sophomore year:


Rookie year:


I expect Green to improve as a passer. He does draw help and he is a willing passer but some of the other guys simply make better reads and/or have the ball more.

You are entirely missing my point.

I'm saying Green generates more open looks by collapsing defenses. His ability to create dribble seperation easily which requires help defense to step in creates open looks.

There is a difference between being good at reads which Giddey is good at and being good at actually collapsing defenses which guys like Giddey and even Cade aren't good at.

Green has been a elite scorer his entire life which means he hasn't worked on his reads and passing as much as Cade or Giddey but he's certainly developing his ability to make the quick reads.


I'm saying that Green physically actually creates the most open looks for his teammates. At this time he doesn't actually find them as well as a Cade or Giddey. Eventually he'll be competent enough where he doesn't ever have to be as great a making great reads. He just needs to make the simple reads because of how easily he collapses defenses relative to his class.

I got your point but its theoretically.

Yes Green can use his top percentile athletic gifts to draw help but that does not mean he is actually creating tons of open looks.

If he doesn't find them then nothing is being generated. Maybe your scenario plays out but its far from given.

Zach Lavine isn't generating more open looks than plenty of guys who are far less physically gifted.

[ejftw]

Im not picking a big who can’t be a star on offense over two potential star perimeter players who can shoot, score and create on offense.

What’s Mobley’s ceiling Jaren Jackson Jr.?

You’re taking Jaren Jackson Jr. over two likely 25ppg guards?

His Peake is a the best and most versatile defender in the nba with the potential to be a good multi time defensive player of the year . Jackson can hardly sniff that

I’d still pick 25ppg perimeter scorers over that. I’d then just surround them with less talented but still good defensive players

Take note that at some point you will have to max the guys you’ve mentioned. I’d rather distribute most of my cap space to my scorers then fill the roster with cheap defensive players.

Look at where Nerlens Noel is right now. Check how hyped he was during his rookie year.

Sixers got Paul Reed. Give him enough opportunity and you can say he is also one of the best and most versatile defenders in the league.

So are Jaden McDaniels or Herb Jones.

Comparing Mobley to Noel, Jones and McDaniels is...weird.

That's like me saying Cade won't amount to anything, look at Tyreke Evans and Michael Carter-Williams! Hell, give BJ the opportunity and he'd score that much as well.

[BallerTalk]

To answer your question from earlier: I've watched 2 Rockets games this year. Nobody can watch everything and the Rockets are pretty far down my watch list....

First, I appreciate your honesty.

But your statement means you've already missed 10 times as many games as you've watched. So why do you feel compelled to comment on a subject you admittedly have little info about?
Wouldn't it be easier, and infinitely more honest, to say "I don't have enough info to offer an informed opinion"?

[jasonxxx102]

To answer your question from earlier: I've watched 2 Rockets games this year. Nobody can watch everything and the Rockets are pretty far down my watch list....

First, I appreciate your honesty.

But your statement means you've already missed 10 times as many games as you've watched. So why do you feel compelled to comment on a subject you admittedly have little info about?
Wouldn't it be easier, and infinitely more honest, to say "I don't have enough info to offer an informed opinion"?

Watching 2 games and seeing reality is better than watching 20 and having your head in the sand

[Ayt]

Im not picking a big who can’t be a star on offense over two potential star perimeter players who can shoot, score and create on offense.

What’s Mobley’s ceiling Jaren Jackson Jr.?

You’re taking Jaren Jackson Jr. over two likely 25ppg guards?

Have you never watched Mobley play?

[Farhan0311]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Sophomore year:


Rookie year:


I expect Green to improve as a passer. He does draw help and he is a willing passer but some of the other guys simply make better reads and/or have the ball more.

You are entirely missing my point.

I'm saying Green generates more open looks by collapsing defenses. His ability to create dribble seperation easily which requires help defense to step in creates open looks.

There is a difference between being good at reads which Giddey is good at and being good at actually collapsing defenses which guys like Giddey and even Cade aren't good at.

Green has been a elite scorer his entire life which means he hasn't worked on his reads and passing as much as Cade or Giddey but he's certainly developing his ability to make the quick reads.


I'm saying that Green physically actually creates the most open looks for his teammates. At this time he doesn't actually find them as well as a Cade or Giddey. Eventually he'll be competent enough where he doesn't ever have to be as great a making great reads. He just needs to make the simple reads because of how easily he collapses defenses relative to his class.

I got your point but its theoretically.

Yes Green can use his top percentile athletic gifts to draw help but that does not mean he is actually creating tons of open looks.

If he doesn't find them then nothing is being generated. Maybe your scenario plays out but its far from given.

Zach Lavine isn't generating more open looks than plenty of guys who are far less physically gifted.

Zach Lavine didn't have elite dribble seperation at 20. In fact he didn't have much of any handle at 20. Neither could he manipulate screens with a love dribble lile Green.

[jasonxxx102]

You are entirely missing my point.

I'm saying Green generates more open looks by collapsing defenses. His ability to create dribble seperation easily which requires help defense to step in creates open looks.

There is a difference between being good at reads which Giddey is good at and being good at actually collapsing defenses which guys like Giddey and even Cade aren't good at.

Green has been a elite scorer his entire life which means he hasn't worked on his reads and passing as much as Cade or Giddey but he's certainly developing his ability to make the quick reads.


I'm saying that Green physically actually creates the most open looks for his teammates. At this time he doesn't actually find them as well as a Cade or Giddey. Eventually he'll be competent enough where he doesn't ever have to be as great a making great reads. He just needs to make the simple reads because of how easily he collapses defenses relative to his class.

I got your point but its theoretically.

Yes Green can use his top percentile athletic gifts to draw help but that does not mean he is actually creating tons of open looks.

If he doesn't find them then nothing is being generated. Maybe your scenario plays out but its far from given.

Zach Lavine isn't generating more open looks than plenty of guys who are far less physically gifted.

Zach Lavine didn't have elite dribble seperation at 20. In fact he didn't have much of any handle at 20. Neither could he manipulate screens with a love dribble lile Green.

If Green ever becomes close to the player Lavine is that’ll be an amazing success and won’t even matter because Lavine isn’t a game changer.

He’s an electric scorer, dime a dozen in the NBA

[Farhan0311]

I got your point but its theoretically.

Yes Green can use his top percentile athletic gifts to draw help but that does not mean he is actually creating tons of open looks.

If he doesn't find them then nothing is being generated. Maybe your scenario plays out but its far from given.

Zach Lavine isn't generating more open looks than plenty of guys who are far less physically gifted.

Zach Lavine didn't have elite dribble seperation at 20. In fact he didn't have much of any handle at 20. Neither could he manipulate screens with a love dribble lile Green.

If Green ever becomes close to the player Lavine is that’ll be an amazing success and won’t even matter because Lavine isn’t a game changer.

He’s an electric scorer, dime a dozen in the NBA

Do you actually have anything worthwhile to say with evidence that backs up your grade school level **** talking?

[jasonxxx102]

10 years after he retires is anyone even going to remember Lavine? Nobody even cares about him now

[Ayt]

Jalen Green is the weird player in this mix. At his height with his build, you need to be a playmaker to be an impact player. He's looking like a scorer off the bench on a team that is actually good.

[jasonxxx102]

Zach Lavine didn't have elite dribble seperation at 20. In fact he didn't have much of any handle at 20. Neither could he manipulate screens with a love dribble lile Green.

If Green ever becomes close to the player Lavine is that’ll be an amazing success and won’t even matter because Lavine isn’t a game changer.

He’s an electric scorer, dime a dozen in the NBA

Do you actually have anything worthwhile to say with evidence that backs up your grade school level **** talking?

I’m still waiting on that film I asked for pages ago. Not surprising that you dodged that one.

I’ve watched nearly every possession both offensively and defensively so I know what is and isn’t true btw.

[jasonxxx102]

It’s not my fault that some people can’t accept objective reality.

Speaking the truth makes you a hater.

Shared the stats AND the film and apparently that’s not evidence lmao. Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing

[Hoop Heavy]

Do you even have any clue what Green's game is?

If he was drafted on purely athleticism, then he would get drafted below Kuminga. He has the best dribble seperation ability out of the class and possibly will be the best shooter in the class. He generates the most open looks out of his class because he collapses defenses the most. Over time he's seeing the open teammates he's generating more and more often (5+ assists in 9/11 games).

If a player like Barnes has "higher IQ" than Green it would show by now bud. Barnes is older, has better spacing, better teammates, better pgs etc around him. He's also a big who on average are more efficient than guards and yet he has a 5% ts disadvantage over Green.

Your points don't seem to destroy my statements. Yes, he's a gifted scorer. That's most of what he's got going.

Unlike Mobley and Barnes though, he'll never be able to guard anybody but tiny guards down low - in a switch everything defensive scheme, he'll just be getting dunked on. He better have something more though to make up for his lack of defensive prowess.

I'm just really perplexed about the modern hipster fan that completely dismisses scoring as a talent. It's like you'd chuck a PS5 controller at Bill Russel for saying "this game is and always has been about buckets".

Yes he does bring something else to the table since he can't guard bigs and that is projected elite scoring and an ability to collapse defenses at an elite level(create open looks for teammates) due to elite dribble separation.

Imagine thinking a player fails because they can't guard big men. Oh my I guess Ja is a failure. Curry is a failure. Booker is a failure.

Wow, now I'm a "modern hipster" ... lol. I'll wager that I'm both older and have been following competitive basketball for longer than you. Heck, I might have been following competitive basketball for longer than you have been alive - soon to be five decades.


Still, aside from your personal slights ... I agree with the other guy you are arguing with ... your point is entirely theoretical ... it hasn't happened and maybe never will. No, Curry, Ja and Booker aren't failures ... but they aren't Giannis or the Joker either. There's another thread going - pointing out that Booker never even had a sniff at a deep playoff run before Paul and other defensive minded guys were added. Volume scorers don't win without help. Keep dreaming.

All I said is guys who rely primarily on athletics or "dribble separation" to be great are one injury away from being average ...

... and now I'm a hipster.