If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

[DCasey91]

It’s funny but both Green and Mobley are tracking the way I thought they would. After a rough start it soured me greatly but Green showed flashes in the back half of his rookie year.

Check on the draft boards I had Mobley 1st then Green then a whole essay on Green being 1st lol then went full circle back to Mobley.

Year 3 is where I expect both to have numbers like this:

25ppg on above average TS% and legitimately the quickest foot speed scorer in the NBA for Green

And for Mobley 18/9/3 and basically being a lock for All NBA defensive accolades. There was a stretch of 10 games when injuries occurred when he went 18/9/2 early on in his rookie season and it was highly impressive.

Knew Mobley’s defence would translate above all else when it comes to any of the draft prospects except for Giddey’s passing.

I already believe he’ll be better than Gobert (for me the most overrated player in this generation, always had Green as the superior defender) on defence because Mobley is much less exploitable.

Not quite Garnett as he doesn’t have the motor up to par, but Garnett level defence? You bet your bottom dollar there’s a high chance that would happen.

Honestly haven’t seen that kind of defensive acumen in his rookie year in a long long time.

[reanimator]

You are entirely missing my point.

I'm saying Green generates more open looks by collapsing defenses. His ability to create dribble seperation easily which requires help defense to step in creates open looks.

There is a difference between being good at reads which Giddey is good at and being good at actually collapsing defenses which guys like Giddey and even Cade aren't good at.

Green has been a elite scorer his entire life which means he hasn't worked on his reads and passing as much as Cade or Giddey but he's certainly developing his ability to make the quick reads.


I'm saying that Green physically actually creates the most open looks for his teammates. At this time he doesn't actually find them as well as a Cade or Giddey. Eventually he'll be competent enough where he doesn't ever have to be as great a making great reads. He just needs to make the simple reads because of how easily he collapses defenses relative to his class.

I got your point but its theoretically.

Yes Green can use his top percentile athletic gifts to draw help but that does not mean he is actually creating tons of open looks.

If he doesn't find them then nothing is being generated. Maybe your scenario plays out but its far from given.

Zach Lavine isn't generating more open looks than plenty of guys who are far less physically gifted.

Zach Lavine didn't have elite dribble seperation at 20. In fact he didn't have much of any handle at 20. Neither could he manipulate screens with a love dribble lile Green.

Ok man. You think Green is going to be an elite scorer, passer, and defender. The only thing we have evidence of is the scoring. I guess we will see.

[BallerTalk]

To answer your question from earlier: I've watched 2 Rockets games this year. Nobody can watch everything and the Rockets are pretty far down my watch list....

First, I appreciate your honesty.

But your statement means you've already missed 10 times as many games as you've watched. So why do you feel compelled to comment on a subject you admittedly have little info about?
Wouldn't it be easier, and infinitely more honest, to say "I don't have enough info to offer an informed opinion"?

Watching 2 games and seeing reality is better than watching 20 and having your head in the sand

We've established you have zero credibility on the matter.

Your inexplicable disdain for the kid along with your asinine assessments continue to culminate in clueless commentary.
You been called on it but you still can't resist. Most people don't obsess like this over players they don't like or for whom they have low regard.

You're like that school kid who lashes out because he lacks the wherewithal to properly express his crush

Your hate for Jalen Green has been duly noted. Now relax and let it go.
Perhaps try talking about players you like and actually follow (assuming you do actually watch hoops).

II

[Onlytimewilltel]

Your points don't seem to destroy my statements. Yes, he's a gifted scorer. That's most of what he's got going.

Unlike Mobley and Barnes though, he'll never be able to guard anybody but tiny guards down low - in a switch everything defensive scheme, he'll just be getting dunked on. He better have something more though to make up for his lack of defensive prowess.

I'm just really perplexed about the modern hipster fan that completely dismisses scoring as a talent. It's like you'd chuck a PS5 controller at Bill Russel for saying "this game is and always has been about buckets".

Yes he does bring something else to the table since he can't guard bigs and that is projected elite scoring and an ability to collapse defenses at an elite level(create open looks for teammates) due to elite dribble separation.

Imagine thinking a player fails because they can't guard big men. Oh my I guess Ja is a failure. Curry is a failure. Booker is a failure.

Wow, now I'm a "modern hipster" ... lol. I'll wager that I'm both older and have been following competitive basketball for longer than you. Heck, I might have been following competitive basketball for longer than you have been alive - soon to be five decades.


Still, aside from your personal slights ... I agree with the other guy you are arguing with ... your point is entirely theoretical ... it hasn't happened and maybe never will. No, Curry, Ja and Booker aren't failures ... but they aren't Giannis or the Joker either. There's another thread going - pointing out that Booker never even had a sniff at a deep playoff run before Paul and other defensive minded guys were added. Volume scorers don't win without help. Keep dreaming.

All I said is guys who rely primarily on athletics or "dribble separation" to be great are one injury away from being average ...

... and now I'm a hipster.

No one wins without help, ?

Of course Booker needed help around him and good defenders to get to the finals. So did Kobe Bryant. So did Steph Curry, You gotta have a little bit of everything on the team, some balance. I would have taken Mobley over green my self, but it’s silly to say volume scorers don’t win without help when that statement applies to absolutely all star players, even lebron James and Michael Jordan.

[jasonxxx102]

:nod:

First, I appreciate your honesty.

But your statement means you've already missed 10 times as many games as you've watched. So why do you feel compelled to comment on a subject you admittedly have little info about?
Wouldn't it be easier, and infinitely more honest, to say "I don't have enough info to offer an informed opinion"?

Watching 2 games and seeing reality is better than watching 20 and having your head in the sand

We've established you have zero credibility on the matter.

Your inexplicable disdain for the kid along with your asinine assessments continue to culminate in clueless commentary.
You been called on it but you still can't resist. Most people don't obsess like this over players they don't like or for whom they have low regard.

You're like that school kid who lashes out because he lacks the wherewithal to properly express his crush

Your hate for Jalen Green has been duly noted. Now relax and let it go.
Perhaps try talking about players you like and actually follow (assuming you do actually watch hoops).

II

I’ve watched nearly every offensive and defensive possession of Greens entire career.

Try again bud

I’ve challenged you and the other dude multiple times to pull the film and yet here we are where your posts have exactly 0 basketball content and are just wordy personal insults.

The number one sign of someone who has nothing insightful to say is post after post filled with ad hominem.

I challenge you to post a single thing about the game of basketball instead of butt hurt

[PhilBlackson]

Anyone who doesn’t have Franz in their top 3 doesn’t watch the Magic.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I'm fine if you put Wagner 4, he's awesome.

He's not a better player or prospect than Mobley/Cade/Barnes, it's just that simple.

He's a really good player and that's not a slight but not a single GM in the league is taking Franz over any of those 3 guys

I couldn't imagine any GM taking Barnes over Franz. Last year we had posters claiming no GM would take Suggs and Wagner for Barnes.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

I'll just leave this here...head to head...couldn't imagine huh?!

Scottie 17pts - 14rb - 4ast - 1bl

Franz 9pts - 1rb - 1ast - 0bl

[76ciology]

Im not picking a big who can’t be a star on offense over two potential star perimeter players who can shoot, score and create on offense.

What’s Mobley’s ceiling Jaren Jackson Jr.?

You’re taking Jaren Jackson Jr. over two likely 25ppg guards?

Have you never watched Mobley play?

Thats the problem. You only or mostly watch Mobley.

Its the same thing that happens when you keep watching highlight of a certain player on youtube. If will fool you to think he is more than what he is. Which isnt the case if you watch the entire game.

I watch Mobley, Green, Wagner, Cade, the entire league and how the game is played.

If you would search my posts, i actually have a high praise with how Cavs run their team and their 3 bigs line-up last season and 2 big line-up this season.

But I dont root for a single player. I dont have equity in either of these guys. Im an outsider looking in.

You can say i have less bias than you guys

[kanahda ballz]

Where is that poster that said any GM would take Wagner over Barnes?

Sure, it is only one game and a very small sample size.

But only 100 games into their respective careers, that is a small sample size as well.

Maybe wait until 10-12 years until making judgements on who is the best player out of the 2021 draft.

Up until a couple of years ago it was debatable between Curry and Harden on who was the best player out of the 2009 draft - however now it is clear Curry is the best player out of that draft.

It is going be a long time before we see who is the best player out of the 2021 draft.

[tooler]

Yeah that's our fault. As soon as we started talking about Franz, we jinxed him. Well, that or we're missing the glue guys that make this team respectable.

The Magic are like a traveling road show to help teams and players get their mojo back. Scottie Barnes got himself a fresh injection of mojo from the Magic tonight. He's as good as new! Enjoy your player once more, Raptors fans.

[Hoop Heavy]

I'm just really perplexed about the modern hipster fan that completely dismisses scoring as a talent. It's like you'd chuck a PS5 controller at Bill Russel for saying "this game is and always has been about buckets".

Yes he does bring something else to the table since he can't guard bigs and that is projected elite scoring and an ability to collapse defenses at an elite level(create open looks for teammates) due to elite dribble separation.

Imagine thinking a player fails because they can't guard big men. Oh my I guess Ja is a failure. Curry is a failure. Booker is a failure.

Wow, now I'm a "modern hipster" ... lol. I'll wager that I'm both older and have been following competitive basketball for longer than you. Heck, I might have been following competitive basketball for longer than you have been alive - soon to be five decades.


Still, aside from your personal slights ... I agree with the other guy you are arguing with ... your point is entirely theoretical ... it hasn't happened and maybe never will. No, Curry, Ja and Booker aren't failures ... but they aren't Giannis or the Joker either. There's another thread going - pointing out that Booker never even had a sniff at a deep playoff run before Paul and other defensive minded guys were added. Volume scorers don't win without help. Keep dreaming.

All I said is guys who rely primarily on athletics or "dribble separation" to be great are one injury away from being average ...

... and now I'm a hipster.

No one wins without help, ?

Of course Booker needed help around him and good defenders to get to the finals. So did Kobe Bryant. So did Steph Curry, You gotta have a little bit of everything on the team, some balance. I would have taken Mobley over green my self, but it’s silly to say volume scorers don’t win without help when that statement applies to absolutely all star players, even lebron James and Michael Jordan.

Okay, you keep making my point, but acting like it's an argument ... "Lebron James and Michael Jordan" are "two-way" players. Scottie Barnes and Evan Mobley already are "two way" players ... but maybe not fully formed ones yet.

For me, Jalen Green isn't a two way player yet. He's young, maybe he'll become a great one. Steph must be seen to have the same weakness - due to his size and slight build (short guys can guard effectively - watch Klow and check out his numbers) - but most guys can't shoot like that ... and maybe Steph is playing harder on D last year and has a bad rap. Still, Kobe - "two way" player ... MAJOR "two way" player.


Why not draft a two-way star instead of taking the chance when Scottie is right there?

[HMFFL]

Mobley
Green
Barnes
Sengun
Cade

I personally see Mobley and Green as having the highest ceiling. It's still early for Cade of course but so far I like what I've seen from the others more.

Green and Mobley certainly have the highest ceiling. I suppose others disagree since they have Green further down in their rankings.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[rapluva]

Im not picking a big who can’t be a star on offense over two potential star perimeter players who can shoot, score and create on offense.

What’s Mobley’s ceiling Jaren Jackson Jr.?

You’re taking Jaren Jackson Jr. over two likely 25ppg guards?

His Peake is a the best and most versatile defender in the nba with the potential to be a good multi time defensive player of the year . Jackson can hardly sniff that

I’d still pick 25ppg perimeter scorers over that. I’d then just surround them with less talented but still good defensive players

Take note that at some point you will have to max the guys you’ve mentioned. I’d rather distribute most of my cap space to my scorers then fill the roster with cheap defensive players.

Look at where Nerlens Noel is right now. Check how hyped he was during his rookie year.

Sixers got Paul Reed. Give him enough opportunity and you can say he is also one of the best and most versatile defenders in the league.

So are Jaden McDaniels or Herb Jones.

Yup..get players that can score the ball... I say draft a winner..a guy like Green can score 30 a night if he wants to... but can he win you a game.. Barnes and Mobley will give you 20 a night and play elite defence... and get you a win..I'd take either one of those two.. Cade can do a bit of both, dude needs to stay healthy though..right now that is the knock against him.

[jasonxxx102]

Some people just prefer PPG over winning basketball

[76ciology]

His Peake is a the best and most versatile defender in the nba with the potential to be a good multi time defensive player of the year . Jackson can hardly sniff that

I’d still pick 25ppg perimeter scorers over that. I’d then just surround them with less talented but still good defensive players

Take note that at some point you will have to max the guys you’ve mentioned. I’d rather distribute most of my cap space to my scorers then fill the roster with cheap defensive players.

Look at where Nerlens Noel is right now. Check how hyped he was during his rookie year.

Sixers got Paul Reed. Give him enough opportunity and you can say he is also one of the best and most versatile defenders in the league.

So are Jaden McDaniels or Herb Jones.

Yup..get players that can score the ball... I say draft a winner..a guy like Green can score 30 a night if he wants to... but can he win you a game.. Barnes and Mobley will give you 20 a night and play elite defence... and get you a win..I'd take either one of those two.. Cade can do a bit of both, dude needs to stay healthy though..right now that is the knock against him.

Yes draft a winner.

But the scenario is you are looking to draft with first overall pick and those guys mentioned by OP is available.

In that scenario, i’ll draft a scorer that you can run an offense (Wagner? Green? Cade?) then you surround him with winning role players.

If I already have a scorer, thats when I start looking to draft Barnes or Mobley

[jasonxxx102]

I’d still pick 25ppg perimeter scorers over that. I’d then just surround them with less talented but still good defensive players

Take note that at some point you will have to max the guys you’ve mentioned. I’d rather distribute most of my cap space to my scorers then fill the roster with cheap defensive players.

Look at where Nerlens Noel is right now. Check how hyped he was during his rookie year.

Sixers got Paul Reed. Give him enough opportunity and you can say he is also one of the best and most versatile defenders in the league.

So are Jaden McDaniels or Herb Jones.

Yup..get players that can score the ball... I say draft a winner..a guy like Green can score 30 a night if he wants to... but can he win you a game.. Barnes and Mobley will give you 20 a night and play elite defence... and get you a win..I'd take either one of those two.. Cade can do a bit of both, dude needs to stay healthy though..right now that is the knock against him.

Yes draft a winner.

But the scenario is you are looking to draft with first overall pick and those guys mentioned by OP is available.

In that scenario, i’ll draft a scorer that you can run an offense (Wagner? Green? Cade?) then you surround him with winning role players.

If I already have a scorer, thats when I start looking to draft Barnes or Mobley

Why start with a scorer who does nothing else when you can find multiple guys who fit that role as FAs every offseason?

Scoring the the most abundant and overrated “skill” in the league these days.

What volume scorer in the last idk at least 20 years has lead a team to a title? Kobe is the only guy who fits that bill and he actually played defense

[hardenASG13]

I’d still pick 25ppg perimeter scorers over that. I’d then just surround them with less talented but still good defensive players

Take note that at some point you will have to max the guys you’ve mentioned. I’d rather distribute most of my cap space to my scorers then fill the roster with cheap defensive players.

Look at where Nerlens Noel is right now. Check how hyped he was during his rookie year.

Sixers got Paul Reed. Give him enough opportunity and you can say he is also one of the best and most versatile defenders in the league.

So are Jaden McDaniels or Herb Jones.

Yup..get players that can score the ball... I say draft a winner..a guy like Green can score 30 a night if he wants to... but can he win you a game.. Barnes and Mobley will give you 20 a night and play elite defence... and get you a win..I'd take either one of those two.. Cade can do a bit of both, dude needs to stay healthy though..right now that is the knock against him.

Yes draft a winner.

But the scenario is you are looking to draft with first overall pick and those guys mentioned by OP is available.

In that scenario, i’ll draft a scorer that you can run an offense (Wagner? Green? Cade?) then you surround him with winning role players.

If I already have a scorer, thats when I start looking to draft Barnes or Mobley

Having a scorer who averages high 20s-30 plus ppg is pretty key to winning a championship. They are hard to find and are extremely valuable.

[jasonxxx102]

Yup..get players that can score the ball... I say draft a winner..a guy like Green can score 30 a night if he wants to... but can he win you a game.. Barnes and Mobley will give you 20 a night and play elite defence... and get you a win..I'd take either one of those two.. Cade can do a bit of both, dude needs to stay healthy though..right now that is the knock against him.

Yes draft a winner.

But the scenario is you are looking to draft with first overall pick and those guys mentioned by OP is available.

In that scenario, i’ll draft a scorer that you can run an offense (Wagner? Green? Cade?) then you surround him with winning role players.

If I already have a scorer, thats when I start looking to draft Barnes or Mobley

Having a scorer who averages high 20s-30 plus ppg is pretty key to winning a championship. They are hard to find and are extremely valuable.

20PPG scorers are not rare or hard to find.

This season there’s a record high number of 20ppg scorers

Of course scoring is a big part of a championship team but they’re almost never the best player. So why spend a top 3 pick on a guy who you can get some version of in 3-4 years in FA when you’re ready to contend.

The simple fact is that 2 way wings and bigs are the most valuable archetypes in the league when looking at title contenders.

Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Tatum, Luka, etc….

[QingJames]

Yes draft a winner.

But the scenario is you are looking to draft with first overall pick and those guys mentioned by OP is available.

In that scenario, i’ll draft a scorer that you can run an offense (Wagner? Green? Cade?) then you surround him with winning role players.

If I already have a scorer, thats when I start looking to draft Barnes or Mobley

Having a scorer who averages high 20s-30 plus ppg is pretty key to winning a championship. They are hard to find and are extremely valuable.

20PPG scorers are not rare or hard to find.

This season there’s a record high number of 20ppg scorers

Of course scoring is a big part of a championship team but they’re almost never the best player. So why spend a top 3 pick on a guy who you can get some version of in 3-4 years in FA when you’re ready to contend.

The simple fact is that 2 way wings and bigs are the most valuable archetypes in the league when looking at title contenders.

Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Tatum, Luka, etc….

Completely agree. You can trade for a guy like LaVine, Beal, Westbrook, Mitchell etc. when you are ready to make the leap to contention. No franchise is trading you a Mobley or Barnes unless those guys are disgruntled and asking out - and even then a Mobley or Barnes at 80% of their best development outcome is more valuable than a generic volume scorer like Green at 80% of his best development outcome.

People are in love with PPG and flashy buckets. If Green becomes as good as guys like Beal and LaVine, that’s a great development outcome for him. But those archetypes of players are not remotely close to being bonafide best players on a contending team. I feel the same about Green. Great, he scores well - tons and tons of guys in the NBA score well. Scoring has never been easier. What else does Green bring to the table as the best player on his team?

[whitehops]

I'm saying Green generates more open looks by collapsing defenses. His ability to create dribble seperation easily which requires help defense to step in creates open looks.

There is a difference between being good at reads which Giddey is good at and being good at actually collapsing defenses which guys like Giddey and even Cade aren't good at.

i don't watch the thunder so i can't speak to giddey but cade is actually very good at collapsing defenses. he does it in a much different way than green but still gets into the paint almost at will and defenses respond to that.

[76ciology]

The team thats gonna win the championship is the team that has someone capable to be a 30ppg scorer who’s playing on a team with elite defense mostly because of his teammates.