MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills.

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MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#1 » by SNPA » Sat Dec 3, 2022 6:31 am

MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Peak basic fundamental basketball skills.

The top three all time for most vs Bird. I think that’s probably a fair statement and if it’s not top three for most it’s for the most sizable minority. Russell being the wildcard here.

High level review of some main basketball basics, skill based assessment…not career achievement. Longevity isn’t the subject, it’s peak skill level.

Best shooter? Bird.

Best passer? Bird (I won’t respond to LBJ is better posts, but others can have that discussion if they want. Think about time of possession and degree of difficulty.)

Best rebounder? By position/era/situation it’s worthy of debate but at worst Bird is in second place.

Off ball defense? Again, at worst second. If you segment out rim protection and put it in its own category he is first.

Killer instinct? No worse than second, but there’s a case to be made he is first and some of Jordan’s traits are more pathological than straight basketball killer.

Leader? I have him first. Others may disagree.

Basketball IQ? First.

Are there areas where he was last? Absolutely. On ball D, etc. Areas where he was third? Sure, ball handling, etc. I’m confident these areas will be pointed out.

But just a high level overview of the subject of peak basic basketball skills makes Bird look pretty good against most people’s GOAT tier.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Sat Dec 3, 2022 7:19 am

Big man skills:
Post scoring -- Kareem, Bird, Jordan, LBJ
Post man defense -- Kareem, LBJ, Jordan, Bird
Rim Protection -- Kareem, LBJ, Bird, Jordan
Interior Passing -- Bird, Kareem, LBJ, Jordan
Passing out of the Post -- Bird, LBJ, Jordan, Kareem
Defensive Rebounding -- Kareem, Bird, LBJ, Jordan
Offensive Rebounding -- LBJ, Bird, Kareem, Jordan

It depends what you call basic basketball skills. If you are talking big man skills, and Bird was a big man at least by size, Kareem probably ranks the highest. If you are talking guard skills, LeBron and Jordan probably rank the highest. If you are talking both combined, then it depends how many skills and how you list them but Kareem will rank last in almost all guard skills so he probably doesn't belong in this conversation.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#3 » by AEnigma » Sat Dec 3, 2022 8:56 am

SNPA wrote:Longevity isn’t the subject, it’s peak skill level.

Best passer? Bird (I won’t respond to LBJ is better posts, but others can have that discussion if they want. Think about time of possession and degree of difficulty.)

Bird is a better complementary passer, but if I actually want a guy running the offence and actively setting everyone up, that is Lebron.

Off ball defense? Again, at worst second. If you segment out rim protection and put it in its own category he is first.

Uh, no, not remotely. Even as Lebron has shifted away from being his team’s primary man defender, he has been a much more valuable defender than Bird ever was. Even if you think Bird has the edge in intuition, that does not come close to making up for the athletic advantage Lebron has while being brilliant at reading opposing offences. And even though Jordan is a step down from that, by position alone I would rather have him lurking and creating off-ball havoc.

Killer instinct? No worse than second, but there’s a case to be made he is first and some of Jordan’s traits are more pathological than straight basketball killer.

I would expect someone with the top “killer instinct” to be more of a killer in the postseason.

Leader? I have him first. Others may disagree.

Yeah not sure there is any especially good way to assess that, but going back to that killer instinct, probably would not have him at the top if my team were ever heavily disadvantaged.

Basketball IQ? First.

Maybe only taking their baseline levels, but definitely taking peak and post-peak Lebron if I need someone on the court to figure out the opposing team

He was the worst of the group at scoring generally, worst at driving, worst at drawing fouls, worst at maintaining his scoring against elite defenders… worst athletically…

Best overall off-ball offence. Relatedly, might be the best at moving without the ball. Best coach and executive lol.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#4 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Dec 3, 2022 9:35 am

I don't think it's a secret Bird is one of the most skilled basketball players of all-time, however these categories don't tell the full story. Bird is easily a better shooter than MJ, LeBron and Kareem but despite that he's still the worst scorer of the 4. He might be the best off-ball defender but as a defender overall he's once again easily the worst.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#5 » by 70sFan » Sat Dec 3, 2022 9:35 am

SNPA wrote:Off ball defense? Again, at worst second. If you segment out rim protection and put it in its own category he is first.

To me, he's clearly the weakest off-ball defender here. Kareem has no competition here, LeBron did everything Bird did and better, while I also prefer Jordan's insane athleticism with his gambling style with Bird's slow footness gambling.

Killer instinct? No worse than second, but there’s a case to be made he is first and some of Jordan’s traits are more pathological than straight basketball killer.

Killer instinct is just an abstract concept created by fans to rave about players who look competitive. All great players are extremely competitive, some just have different characters. I can assure you that Duncan has as much "killer instinct" as anyone, even though nobody talks about him that way.

But just a high level overview of the subject of peak basic basketball skills makes Bird look pretty good against most people’s GOAT tier.

Of course he looks good, he's a great player and you picked skills that makes Bird looks better than them. I'd add that Bird was by far the best off-ball player in this comparison, that's his main strength.

With that being said, he's also by far the worst inside finisher, foul drawer, isolation scorer, man defender, rim protector, perimeter defender, transition finisher... He's also clearly weaker ball-handler than Jordan and James. Basically, he's the weakest on-ball player here while being also by far the worst defender.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#6 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sat Dec 3, 2022 6:55 pm

I mean you could go on and on with the skill categories but:

Bird is by far, the worst finisher of the 4. which is part of the reason why he is the worst scorer of the group.

He's also by far the worst at creating easy shots at the rim for himself.

This is big, because for as skilled as Bird is, converting layups/dunks at the rim are important because they are the easiest shots in basketball.

I also think consider Size, he is the worst run-and-jump athlete here (perhaps not considered skill to many, but some might), which is why when talking about these players at their peaks, makes him the worse defender of the group.

I get the idea that Bird might have the best basketball mind/excel in the shooting/passing portions of the game, but him lacking as an athlete makes him the worse finisher, and defender here in peak talks.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#7 » by OhayoKD » Mon Dec 5, 2022 5:26 am

penbeast0 wrote:Big man skills:
Post scoring -- Kareem, Bird, Jordan, LBJ
Post man defense -- Kareem, LBJ, Jordan, Bird
Rim Protection -- Kareem, LBJ, Bird, Jordan
Interior Passing -- Bird, Kareem, LBJ, Jordan
Passing out of the Post -- Bird, LBJ, Jordan, Kareem
Defensive Rebounding -- Kareem, Bird, LBJ, Jordan
Offensive Rebounding -- LBJ, Bird, Kareem, Jordan

It depends what you call basic basketball skills. If you are talking big man skills, and Bird was a big man at least by size, Kareem probably ranks the highest. If you are talking guard skills, LeBron and Jordan probably rank the highest. If you are talking both combined, then it depends how many skills and how you list them but Kareem will rank last in almost all guard skills so he probably doesn't belong in this conversation.

Am bored so I'm going to give these ratings the Olympic treatment. At the end i'll give an overall score for each player on the basis that gold = 3 points, silver = 2 points, and bronze = 1 points. First place will be declared the undisputed "big-man skills" GOAT :wink:

1.Kareem| 4 Gold, 1 Silver, 1 Bronze | Medal Count: 6 | Point Total: 15
2. Bird | 2 Gold, 3 Silver, 1 Bronze | Medal Count: 6| Point Total: 13
3. Lebron | 1 Gold, 3 Silver, 2 Bronze | Medal Count: 6| Point Total: 11
4. Jordan | 2 Bronze | Medal Count: 2 | Point Total: 2

All hail cap!
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#8 » by rk2023 » Mon Dec 5, 2022 7:55 pm

SNPA wrote:MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Peak basic fundamental basketball skills.

The top three all time for most vs Bird. I think that’s probably a fair statement and if it’s not top three for most it’s for the most sizable minority. Russell being the wildcard here.

High level review of some main basketball basics, skill based assessment…not career achievement. Longevity isn’t the subject, it’s peak skill level.

Best shooter? Bird.

Could very well argue that. Jordan has a case in-spite of being an objectively worse 3-point shooter. Of course, we are not with tracking data but from film - it just seems hard to say Bird > Jordan as a mid-range shooter. And if you look more macro at scoring, there isn't an argument over the other 3 mentioned in comparison.

Best passer? Bird (I won’t respond to LBJ is better posts, but others can have that discussion if they want. Think about time of possession and degree of difficulty.)

Bird better at some passes (eg. touch, hitting cutters, stationary passing although close) while LeBron is better at others (skip-passing, PnR, bounce passing) while likely hitting some higher velocities and Degree-of-Difficulty. Could go with either here, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Best rebounder? By position/era/situation it’s worthy of debate but at worst Bird is in second place.

By position is a fallacy in itself. Kareem in his better prime years blows all three out of the water as he should.

Off ball defense? Again, at worst second. If you segment out rim protection and put it in its own category he is first.

If you're evaluating off-ball defense, why would you segment out arguably its most important component? Perhaps Bird and Jordan could serve as a good conversation, but not close to Kareem - let alone LeBron in this regard.

Killer instinct? No worse than second, but there’s a case to be made he is first and some of Jordan’s traits are more pathological than straight basketball killer.

Killer Instinct? In December 2022?

Leader? I have him first. Others may disagree.

I wouldn't disagree with this. Hard to quantify, but have seen all positive accounts regarding Bird's leadership.

Basketball IQ? First.

Cerebral and psychic-esque player no doubt, but I would presume any pantheon player's BBIQ all are the highest. In a manner where it's hard to distinguish.

Are there areas where he was last? Absolutely. On ball D, etc. Areas where he was third? Sure, ball handling, etc. I’m confident these areas will be pointed out.

But just a high level overview of the subject of peak basic basketball skills makes Bird look pretty good against most people’s GOAT tier.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#9 » by RCM88x » Tue Dec 6, 2022 1:39 am

Maybe if you ignore defense and everything to do with handling the ball while looking at the basket he has an argument.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#10 » by SNPA » Tue Dec 6, 2022 4:55 am

RCM88x wrote:Maybe if you ignore defense and everything to do with handling the ball while looking at the basket he has an argument.

Ugh.

Maybe if you ignore shooting for LBJ
Maybe if you ignore rebounds for MJ
Maybe if you ignore passing for KAJ

Not much of a trick.

Besides that….

I’ll add that Bird’s court vision is miles ahead of the other three. He sees and plays the game on a totally different level. Throwing PnR or fastbreak passes is fine, playing defense relying on athleticism works (while athletic) but those lack the savant element of Bird’s game. It’s beyond BBIQ, it’s a type of unmeasurable genius. I know the quantitative crowd hates statements like that but it’s true, and translates. It’s just not reducible to a line of digits on a stat sheet.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#11 » by NbaAllDay » Tue Dec 6, 2022 1:59 pm

SNPA wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Maybe if you ignore defense and everything to do with handling the ball while looking at the basket he has an argument.

Ugh.

Maybe if you ignore shooting for LBJ
Maybe if you ignore rebounds for MJ
Maybe if you ignore passing for KAJ

Not much of a trick.

Besides that….

I’ll add that Bird’s court vision is miles ahead of the other three. He sees and plays the game on a totally different level. Throwing PnR or fastbreak passes is fine, playing defense relying on athleticism works (while athletic) but those lack the savant element of Bird’s game. It’s beyond BBIQ, it’s a type of unmeasurable genius. I know the quantitative crowd hates statements like that but it’s true, and translates. It’s just not reducible to a line of digits on a stat sheet.


So basically Bird is better at the unmeasurable. How convenient.
I'm sure it's because of his 'bird mentality'
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#12 » by SNPA » Tue Dec 6, 2022 3:12 pm

NbaAllDay wrote:
SNPA wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Maybe if you ignore defense and everything to do with handling the ball while looking at the basket he has an argument.

Ugh.

Maybe if you ignore shooting for LBJ
Maybe if you ignore rebounds for MJ
Maybe if you ignore passing for KAJ

Not much of a trick.

Besides that….

I’ll add that Bird’s court vision is miles ahead of the other three. He sees and plays the game on a totally different level. Throwing PnR or fastbreak passes is fine, playing defense relying on athleticism works (while athletic) but those lack the savant element of Bird’s game. It’s beyond BBIQ, it’s a type of unmeasurable genius. I know the quantitative crowd hates statements like that but it’s true, and translates. It’s just not reducible to a line of digits on a stat sheet.


So basically Bird is better at the unmeasurable. How convenient.
I'm sure it's because of his 'bird mentality'

That’s only a part of the argument for him. But let’s just take that part and the reverse is true too. How convenient to ignore things which are immeasurable. Most of basketball is immeasurable, we don’t have chips in players brains recording why they make certain decisions and not others.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#13 » by AEnigma » Tue Dec 6, 2022 4:29 pm

Imagine if those immeasurables had ever measured into the same level as success as these other three. :thinking:
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#14 » by Colbinii » Tue Dec 6, 2022 5:23 pm

SNPA is the type of guy who wished he hurt his back shoveling his driveway and had back pain for the majority of his entire adult life just so Bird could have been healthier and would be viewed in a higher light in other people's opinions.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#15 » by SNPA » Wed Dec 7, 2022 4:04 am

Colbinii wrote:SNPA is the type of guy who wished he hurt his back shoveling his driveway and had back pain for the majority of his entire adult life just so Bird could have been healthier and would be viewed in a higher light in other people's opinions.

I’d take it for Bird to play longer. :D I like basketball savants. Others…seem to have other opinions, which is cool…if you’re into that non-basketball-savant thing.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#16 » by Colbinii » Wed Dec 7, 2022 4:35 am

SNPA wrote:
Colbinii wrote:SNPA is the type of guy who wished he hurt his back shoveling his driveway and had back pain for the majority of his entire adult life just so Bird could have been healthier and would be viewed in a higher light in other people's opinions.

I’d take it for Bird to play longer. :D I like basketball savants. Others…seem to have other opinions, which is cool…if you’re into that non-basketball-savant thing.


I don't equate Basketball Savant to GOAT though--and many others don't either. For some reason, that is a difficult concept for you to understand.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#17 » by SNPA » Wed Dec 7, 2022 4:52 am

Colbinii wrote:
SNPA wrote:
Colbinii wrote:SNPA is the type of guy who wished he hurt his back shoveling his driveway and had back pain for the majority of his entire adult life just so Bird could have been healthier and would be viewed in a higher light in other people's opinions.

I’d take it for Bird to play longer. :D I like basketball savants. Others…seem to have other opinions, which is cool…if you’re into that non-basketball-savant thing.


I don't equate Basketball Savant to GOAT though--and many others don't either. For some reason, that is a difficult concept for you to understand.

I’d don’t have Bird as GOAT. But the player I do have as GOAT is also a basketball savant.

I don’t believe you can have great finger dexterity and a desire and eventually be a better guitar player than Hendrix. You can get good, you can get great with endless practice and study but you can’t get past the person willing to do the same but with more natural talent.

Bird is a natural basketball player. He was always great, even before he picked up a basketball for the first time. It’s was in there, just waiting to come out. That’s a different level from someone who might be a top of line world class athlete, who plays basketball.

I respect the hell out of what James has done transforming his game, dedicating himself to learning and building skills. It’s awesome. His late career skill level is beautiful. He deserves all the credit. But, he isn’t a basketball savant. He learned it, it isn’t innate. And that limits him, you can’t just overwhelm innate skill and ability with athleticism at the highest of levels. Basketball is fundamentally a game of skill, athleticism is supplemental.

This is all tough for the quantitative crowd to engage. I respect that approach but it’s not wholistic and doesn’t do well recognizing its weaknesses. Genius is a thing. You can’t put a number to it and it matters in basketball.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#18 » by OhayoKD » Wed Dec 7, 2022 7:31 am

SNPA wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
SNPA wrote:I’d take it for Bird to play longer. :D I like basketball savants. Others…seem to have other opinions, which is cool…if you’re into that non-basketball-savant thing.


I don't equate Basketball Savant to GOAT though--and many others don't either. For some reason, that is a difficult concept for you to understand.

I’d don’t have Bird as GOAT. But the player I do have as GOAT is also a basketball savant.

I don’t believe you can have great finger dexterity and a desire and eventually be a better guitar player than Hendrix. You can get good, you can get great with endless practice and study but you can’t get past the person willing to do the same but with more natural talent.

Bird is a natural basketball player. He was always great, even before he picked up a basketball for the first time. It’s was in there, just waiting to come out. That’s a different level from someone who might be a top of line world class athlete, who plays basketball.

I respect the hell out of what James has done transforming his game, dedicating himself to learning and building skills. It’s awesome. His late career skill level is beautiful. He deserves all the credit. But, he isn’t a basketball savant. He learned it, it isn’t innate. And that limits him, you can’t just overwhelm innate skill and ability with athleticism at the highest of levels. Basketball is fundamentally a game of skill, athleticism is supplemental.

This is all tough for the quantitative crowd to engage. I respect that approach but it’s not wholistic and doesn’t do well recognizing its weaknesses. Genius is a thing. You can’t put a number to it and it matters in basketball.

music(or artistic anything really) is like 1% natural ability to get you in the door(if you're especially gifted maybe it can get you a bit further), and 99% work/learning.. At the top of art "innate skill" is not the differentiator. Basketball is unique in that physical traits immediately effect viability, but a great musician is great because they've had the experiences/learning to get there. You hit the point of diminishing returns pretty quickly with "innate skill". Natural talent makes one's route easier, but at a certain treshold, it stops mattering
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#19 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Dec 7, 2022 3:16 pm

SNPA wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
SNPA wrote:I’d take it for Bird to play longer. :D I like basketball savants. Others…seem to have other opinions, which is cool…if you’re into that non-basketball-savant thing.


I don't equate Basketball Savant to GOAT though--and many others don't either. For some reason, that is a difficult concept for you to understand.

I’d don’t have Bird as GOAT. But the player I do have as GOAT is also a basketball savant.

I don’t believe you can have great finger dexterity and a desire and eventually be a better guitar player than Hendrix. You can get good, you can get great with endless practice and study but you can’t get past the person willing to do the same but with more natural talent.

Bird is a natural basketball player. He was always great, even before he picked up a basketball for the first time. It’s was in there, just waiting to come out. That’s a different level from someone who might be a top of line world class athlete, who plays basketball.

I respect the hell out of what James has done transforming his game, dedicating himself to learning and building skills. It’s awesome. His late career skill level is beautiful. He deserves all the credit. But, he isn’t a basketball savant. He learned it, it isn’t innate. And that limits him, you can’t just overwhelm innate skill and ability with athleticism at the highest of levels. Basketball is fundamentally a game of skill, athleticism is supplemental.

This is all tough for the quantitative crowd to engage. I respect that approach but it’s not wholistic and doesn’t do well recognizing its weaknesses. Genius is a thing. You can’t put a number to it and it matters in basketball.


That's great, but you're clearly just picking and choosing who is a savant and who is not. You probably think James is not savant because he didn't shoot long 2s coming out of HS, when he is pretty clearly a savant at basketball. Not only was he a freakish athlete which is perfectly relevant to athletics (duh) he was always praised for his vision and handles.

You do not get compared to Magic Johnson without being a savant, unless you are going to say Magic is not a savant either. And no, I am not saying James is a better passer, but you're making it seem like he's just some guy who runs and jumped high coming out of HS.


How are you going to say basketball is a game of skill primarily. Think about it for one second and think about how tall everyone in the NBA is. Obviously your physical attributes are by far the primary aspect in how far you can go into the NBA.

Basketball is nowhere near the most skill oriented sport - you are probably just lazily comparing it to American Football and not nearly every other sport that exist.

I also think it is funny you think James had to "learn" basketball when Michael Jordan famously didn't make varsity because he was too raw. If Jordan was a savant why would he have to work on his skills so much, that isn't what savants do. He became a great HS player when he grew over 6 feet tall - go figure.
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Re: MJ/LBJ/KAJ vs Bird. Basic Basketball Skills. 

Post#20 » by 70sFan » Wed Dec 7, 2022 3:20 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
SNPA wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
I don't equate Basketball Savant to GOAT though--and many others don't either. For some reason, that is a difficult concept for you to understand.

I’d don’t have Bird as GOAT. But the player I do have as GOAT is also a basketball savant.

I don’t believe you can have great finger dexterity and a desire and eventually be a better guitar player than Hendrix. You can get good, you can get great with endless practice and study but you can’t get past the person willing to do the same but with more natural talent.

Bird is a natural basketball player. He was always great, even before he picked up a basketball for the first time. It’s was in there, just waiting to come out. That’s a different level from someone who might be a top of line world class athlete, who plays basketball.

I respect the hell out of what James has done transforming his game, dedicating himself to learning and building skills. It’s awesome. His late career skill level is beautiful. He deserves all the credit. But, he isn’t a basketball savant. He learned it, it isn’t innate. And that limits him, you can’t just overwhelm innate skill and ability with athleticism at the highest of levels. Basketball is fundamentally a game of skill, athleticism is supplemental.

This is all tough for the quantitative crowd to engage. I respect that approach but it’s not wholistic and doesn’t do well recognizing its weaknesses. Genius is a thing. You can’t put a number to it and it matters in basketball.


That's great, but you're clearly just picking and choosing who is a savant and who is not. You probably think James is not savant because he didn't shoot long 2s coming out of HS, when he is pretty clearly a savant at basketball. Not only was he a freakish athlete which is perfectly relevant to athletics (duh) he was always praised for his vision and handles.

You do not get compared to Magic Johnson without being a savant, unless you are going to say Magic is not a savant either. And no, I am not saying James is a better passer, but you're making it seem like he's just some guy who runs and jumped high coming out of HS.


How are you going to say basketball is a game of skill primarily. Think about it for one second and think about how tall everyone in the NBA is. Obviously your physical attributes are by far the primary aspect in how far you can go into the NBA.

Basketball is nowhere near the most skill oriented sport - you are probably just lazily comparing it to American Football and not nearly every other sport that exist.

Yeah, Larry Bird wouldn't make the league if he had been unathletic 5'9 with his skillset. I'm pretty sure there are people who could read the game better than Bird who didn't make the league because they couldn't make it work on the basketball court.

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