If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

hardenASG13 · Post #321 » by **hardenASG13** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:42 pm

OrlMagic05 wrote:
Shock Defeat wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:

His usage rate is also the highest at 28%, Shot attempts the highest at 18FGA, shoots 42%FG all to only average 1.8 more PPG.

Tell me why Franz doesn't shoot more, then?

It's not like he's more efficient while the team is winning. No, the team needs Franz to score 30 more often, so that perhaps they can win more games.

Green's best games absolutely trump Franz's best games, and I have no doubt in my mind that Green has a level that Franz cannot ever reach. I'll take a inconsistent guy that shows flashes of being a superstar, over a guy that's consistently decent any day of the week.

Listen, I am not hating on Green, but your logic makes no sense and only helps show how horribly inconsistent Green is.

Out of the 26 games he has played he has 15 games where he shot under 40%, 6 of those he shot under 30%!!! Where as Franz has only shot under 40% 4 times this season.

Give me the player that gives me a consistent 20ppg 4rebs 4 ast on 50% shooting than the guy that will shoot you out of a game any day of the week.

Edit- Also, Franz's best game matches Green's best game this year with 34 points and even then Franz was more efficient shooting 80% from the field.

Because Franz can't generate the amount of scoring Green can, ceiling wise. He's looking like a very good second option with Paolo, but Green looks like he may average 30ppg within the next few years. His ceiling is much higher. I like Franz alot though, more so than Barnes.

OrlMagic05 · Post #322 » by **OrlMagic05** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:49 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:
Shock Defeat wrote:Tell me why Franz doesn't shoot more, then?

It's not like he's more efficient while the team is winning. No, the team needs Franz to score 30 more often, so that perhaps they can win more games.

Green's best games absolutely trump Franz's best games, and I have no doubt in my mind that Green has a level that Franz cannot ever reach. I'll take a inconsistent guy that shows flashes of being a superstar, over a guy that's consistently decent any day of the week.

Listen, I am not hating on Green, but your logic makes no sense and only helps show how horribly inconsistent Green is.

Out of the 26 games he has played he has 15 games where he shot under 40%, 6 of those he shot under 30%!!! Where as Franz has only shot under 40% 4 times this season.

Give me the player that gives me a consistent 20ppg 4rebs 4 ast on 50% shooting than the guy that will shoot you out of a game any day of the week.

Edit- Also, Franz's best game matches Green's best game this year with 34 points and even then Franz was more efficient shooting 80% from the field.

Because Franz can't generate the amount of scoring Green can, ceiling wise. He's looking like a very good second option with Paolo, but Green looks like he may average 30ppg within the next few years. His ceiling is much higher. I like Franz alot though, more so than Barnes.

Why doesnt Franz have the ceiling that Green has? Is it because he isnt as flashy? Isnt as athletic? Yet, his best games are better than Green? I just dont see Green as a 30ppg scorer with good efficiency. He reminds me off a lot of the early 2000s guards that averaged big numbers but never won.

basketballRob · Post #323 » by **basketballRob** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:51 pm

Green isn't currently as good as Franz. Not sure that's an argument .

Franz is looking like a potentual 50/40/90 player that finish at a high-rate at the rim. He plays the same position as Green but us 5' taller.

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hardenASG13 · Post #324 » by **hardenASG13** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:55 pm

OrlMagic05 wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:
Listen, I am not hating on Green, but your logic makes no sense and only helps show how horribly inconsistent Green is.

Out of the 26 games he has played he has 15 games where he shot under 40%, 6 of those he shot under 30%!!! Where as Franz has only shot under 40% 4 times this season.

Give me the player that gives me a consistent 20ppg 4rebs 4 ast on 50% shooting than the guy that will shoot you out of a game any day of the week.

Edit- Also, Franz's best game matches Green's best game this year with 34 points and even then Franz was more efficient shooting 80% from the field.

Because Franz can't generate the amount of scoring Green can, ceiling wise. He's looking like a very good second option with Paolo, but Green looks like he may average 30ppg within the next few years. His ceiling is much higher. I like Franz alot though, more so than Barnes.

Why doesnt Franz have the ceiling that Green has? Is it because he isnt as flashy? Isnt as athletic? Yet, his best games are better than Green? I just dont see Green as a 30ppg scorer with good efficiency. He reminds me off a lot of the early 2000s guards that averaged big numbers but never won.

You can't possibly be expecting Green to win right now in Houston, just as Franz and Paolo aren't winning yet in Orlando. He doesn't have the ceiling because he doesn't generate shots on the perimeter like Green does. Franz is really good driving to the basket. But, yeah, having top tier athleticism and skill is what generally separates stars from very good players at the NBA level, and gives them higher ceilings. I'm not sure why this is so discounted on this forum.

basketballRob · Post #325 » by **basketballRob** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:59 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
Because Franz can't generate the amount of scoring Green can, ceiling wise. He's looking like a very good second option with Paolo, but Green looks like he may average 30ppg within the next few years. His ceiling is much higher. I like Franz alot though, more so than Barnes.

Why doesnt Franz have the ceiling that Green has? Is it because he isnt as flashy? Isnt as athletic? Yet, his best games are better than Green? I just dont see Green as a 30ppg scorer with good efficiency. He reminds me off a lot of the early 2000s guards that averaged big numbers but never won.

You can't possibly be expecting Green to win right now in Houston, just as Franz and Paolo aren't winning yet in Orlando. He doesn't have the ceiling because he doesn't generate shots on the perimeter like Green does. Franz is really good driving to the basket. But, yeah, having top tier athleticism and skill is what generally separates stars from very good players at the NBA level, and gives them higher ceilings. I'm not sure why this is so discounted on this forum.

So you're penalizing Franz for not taking bad shots. Plus, Franz plays SG also and is 5' taller.

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AaronB · Post #326 » by **AaronB** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:01 pm

Shock Defeat wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:
ocelot17 wrote:

Read on Twitter
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His usage rate is also the highest at 28%, Shot attempts the highest at 18FGA, shoots 42%FG all to only average 1.8 more PPG.

Tell me why Franz doesn't shoot more, then?

It's not like he's more efficient while the team is winning. No, the team needs Franz to score 30 more often, so that perhaps they can win more games.

Green's best games absolutely trump Franz's best games, and I have no doubt in my mind that Green has a level that Franz cannot ever reach. I'll take a inconsistent guy that shows flashes of being a superstar, over a guy that's consistently decent any day of the week.

You should watch Wagner play sometime.

He has Sengun's advanced footwork, a handle that allows him to play PG (not that well), footspeed that allows him to cover SGs, height to cover all 5 positions, high BBIQ, 3 pt shot (started slow, but really picking it up again) and allows the game to come to him.

He came into the league as a glue guy ceiling and I can see that shaking that image is hard for some. Right now he is a consistent guy who shows flashes of being a super star. If he stays healthy and keeps his current trajectory, the 2021 draft review will be:

Wagner>>>Mobley>>>rest

Again there are many scenarios that could interfere (like having to go back to PG which was insane) or he could get hurt, but that guy has game. I quit putting limits on what is his ceiling.

OrlMagic05 · Post #327 » by **OrlMagic05** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:07 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
Because Franz can't generate the amount of scoring Green can, ceiling wise. He's looking like a very good second option with Paolo, but Green looks like he may average 30ppg within the next few years. His ceiling is much higher. I like Franz alot though, more so than Barnes.

Why doesnt Franz have the ceiling that Green has? Is it because he isnt as flashy? Isnt as athletic? Yet, his best games are better than Green? I just dont see Green as a 30ppg scorer with good efficiency. He reminds me off a lot of the early 2000s guards that averaged big numbers but never won.

You can't possibly be expecting Green to win right now in Houston, just as Franz and Paolo aren't winning yet in Orlando. He doesn't have the ceiling because he doesn't generate shots on the perimeter like Green does. Franz is really good driving to the basket. But, yeah, having top tier athleticism and skill is what generally separates stars from very good players at the NBA level, and gives them higher ceilings. I'm not sure why this is so discounted on this forum.

Didn't say that Green has to win now. I said he reminds me of the guards from the early 2000s that never won.(because of their horrible efficiency)

So he doesnt have the same ceiling because Franz doesnt chuck up 20+ shots a game on bad efficiency ? So by your logic, since Luka isnt athletic he doesnt have a high ceiling? Oh wait.. :roll:

hardenASG13 · Post #328 » by **hardenASG13** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:49 pm

OrlMagic05 wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:
Why doesnt Franz have the ceiling that Green has? Is it because he isnt as flashy? Isnt as athletic? Yet, his best games are better than Green? I just dont see Green as a 30ppg scorer with good efficiency. He reminds me off a lot of the early 2000s guards that averaged big numbers but never won.

You can't possibly be expecting Green to win right now in Houston, just as Franz and Paolo aren't winning yet in Orlando. He doesn't have the ceiling because he doesn't generate shots on the perimeter like Green does. Franz is really good driving to the basket. But, yeah, having top tier athleticism and skill is what generally separates stars from very good players at the NBA level, and gives them higher ceilings. I'm not sure why this is so discounted on this forum.

Didn't say that Green has to win now. I said he reminds me of the guards from the early 2000s that never won.(because of their horrible efficiency)

So he doesnt have the same ceiling because Franz doesnt chuck up 20+ shots a game on bad efficiency ? So by your logic, since Luka isnt athletic he doesnt have a high ceiling? Oh wait..

No, I think green's efficiency will improve as he grows more accustomed to NBA basketball, whereas Franz is already very efficient but lacks the ability to create his own compared to a guy like Green, thus giving Green the higher ceiling. Make sense?

hardenASG13 · Post #329 » by **hardenASG13** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:51 pm

basketballRob wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:
Why doesnt Franz have the ceiling that Green has? Is it because he isnt as flashy? Isnt as athletic? Yet, his best games are better than Green? I just dont see Green as a 30ppg scorer with good efficiency. He reminds me off a lot of the early 2000s guards that averaged big numbers but never won.

You can't possibly be expecting Green to win right now in Houston, just as Franz and Paolo aren't winning yet in Orlando. He doesn't have the ceiling because he doesn't generate shots on the perimeter like Green does. Franz is really good driving to the basket. But, yeah, having top tier athleticism and skill is what generally separates stars from very good players at the NBA level, and gives them higher ceilings. I'm not sure why this is so discounted on this forum.
So you're penalizing Franz for not taking bad shots. Plus, Franz plays SG also and is 5' taller.

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Yes, stars need to be able to create and make bad shots. I don't think Franz has the ability to create as many shots based on skill/athleticism, which is why I think Green has a higher ceiling. I think Green's efficiency improves as he puts on muscle and learns the NBA game more.

basketballRob · Post #330 » by **basketballRob** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:53 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
You can't possibly be expecting Green to win right now in Houston, just as Franz and Paolo aren't winning yet in Orlando. He doesn't have the ceiling because he doesn't generate shots on the perimeter like Green does. Franz is really good driving to the basket. But, yeah, having top tier athleticism and skill is what generally separates stars from very good players at the NBA level, and gives them higher ceilings. I'm not sure why this is so discounted on this forum.

Didn't say that Green has to win now. I said he reminds me of the guards from the early 2000s that never won.(because of their horrible efficiency)

So he doesnt have the same ceiling because Franz doesnt chuck up 20+ shots a game on bad efficiency ? So by your logic, since Luka isnt athletic he doesnt have a high ceiling? Oh wait..

No, I think green's efficiency will improve as he grows more accustomed to NBA basketball, whereas Franz is already very efficient but lacks the ability to create his own compared to a guy like Green, thus giving Green the higher ceiling. Make sense?

He does create, he just doesn't take bad shots.

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basketballRob · Post #331 » by **basketballRob** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:54 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
You can't possibly be expecting Green to win right now in Houston, just as Franz and Paolo aren't winning yet in Orlando. He doesn't have the ceiling because he doesn't generate shots on the perimeter like Green does. Franz is really good driving to the basket. But, yeah, having top tier athleticism and skill is what generally separates stars from very good players at the NBA level, and gives them higher ceilings. I'm not sure why this is so discounted on this forum.
So you're penalizing Franz for not taking bad shots. Plus, Franz plays SG also and is 5' taller.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

Yes, stars need to be able to create and make bad shots. I don't think Franz has the ability to create as many shots based on skill/athleticism, which is why I think Green has a higher ceiling. I think Green's efficiency improves as he puts on muscle and learns the NBA game more.

Franz is very athletic. He's probably the fastest player on the team and has as many highlight dunks as Green .Franz is on par with Tatum as far as scoring goes and age.

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Mike lorenzo · Post #332 » by **Mike lorenzo** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:36 pm

interesting discussion thanks guys, i can't watch as many games as i would like...if you had to do a comparison with recent nba players who would you say you are most similar to(at their peak)?
Wagner. Hayward plus?
Green..Beal?Lavine?
Mobley..Duncan?/Pau Gasol? Cade..J.Kidd??
Sengun to Domamtas..?

tooler · Post #333 » by **tooler** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:06 pm

Shock Defeat wrote:Tell me why Franz doesn't shoot more, then?

We're already over the moon that he's shooting this much this season. He had high volume last December when he won rookie of the month, then Suggs and Cole came back to jack up shots and he was content to defer. This year they figured out the pecking order and we're thrilled. He and Paolo are staying aggressive for touches and the other young players seem to get it. I'm honestly shocked.

Have you ever watched a young player and said, "I wish player X did that more often?" Or watched a promising young player and said, "I wish the team passed player X the ball?" We're already getting that and more. It's a great feeling. It would feel greedy to ask him to shoot more right now with so many mouths to feed.

Like I said, it's one step at a time with Franz. One day he may take shot creation to the next level. He's worked on step back 3s and he's dabbling with his Dirk fadeaway. He even took a few midrange pull-ups over the weekend. Long-term we'll have to see.

The only thing I'll say is that anyone who thinks they know Franz's ceiling is lying. Not because I think it's unlimited. I don't think he'll be a future top 10 player or whatever nonsense. It's because he continues to add to his game in ways that would seem far-fetched when he was drafted. He started as an unassuming glue guy out of college, then turned in a month of 20 PPG on almost 50/40/90, then made first-team all-rookie, then this season he served as emergency starting point guard, now he's a consistent attacking wing drawing hard double teams and aggressive trapping defense.

What's next? I have absolutely no idea.

basketballRob · Post #334 » by **basketballRob** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:47 pm

Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Franz makes more FGs per 100 possessions than Green in 3.5 less attempts. Since he doesn't miss as much then he isn't as good? Huh

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zshawn10 · Post #335 » by **zshawn10** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:54 pm

I am sure the top 3 teams are happy with their guys and I am sure the Magic would not want Suggs right?

Magiclee · Post #336 » by **Magiclee** » Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:07 am

zshawn10 wrote:I am sure the top 3 teams are happy with their guys and I am sure the Magic would not want Suggs right?

If we had it to do over again we'd obviously take Wagner at 5, but Suggs has looked a lot better this year. He's been injured and very inconsistent but he's showing flashes of being a decent player, which I did not see coming after his rookie season.

Shock Defeat · Post #337 » by **Shock Defeat** » Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:10 am

Updated redraft, Cade's injury takes him down. Barnes looks like a disaster in his 2nd year.

1. Mobley
2. Green
3. Wagner
4. Cade
5. Barnes

Nyce_1 · Post #338 » by **Nyce_1** » Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:13 am

zshawn10 wrote:I am sure the top 3 teams are happy with their guys and I am sure the Magic would not want Suggs right?

Suggs is fine; just wish he stayed healthy.

After an abysmal offensive rookie season, he showed good improvement this season on that end; especially his off-the-dribble 3s. With the addition of Paulo and the continued emergence of Franz, he needs to keep improving his catch & shoot 3s.

Defensively, elite. No issues there.

We're extremely lucky to have walked away with Suggs & Franz.

rocketsfan100 · Post #339 » by **rocketsfan100** » Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:15 am

Shock Defeat wrote:Updated redraft, Cade's injury takes him down. Barnes looks like a disaster in his 2nd year.

1. Mobley
2. Green
3. Wagner
4. Cade
5. Barnes

Barnes regression is alarming. Totally agree.

Right now I would go

Mobley
Wagner
Green
Cade
Sengun

Farhan0311 · Post #340 » by **Farhan0311** » Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:50 am

basketballRob wrote:Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Franz makes more FGs per 100 possessions than Green in 3.5 less attempts. Since he doesn't miss as much then he isn't as good? Huh

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nah that wouldn't be the argument I would make.

I think the best argument I can make is that Green's and Wagner's delta on efficiency currently is larger than what I think it would normally be.

Evidence:

Both had a 1% seperation in ts% and efg% last season as rookies with Green averaging more ppg. That was a full NBA season's worth of sample size.

Look at both the home/road splits for the first quarter of this season for both these players. You'll see both have massive gaps in their scoring and efficiency between home and road games with Green with even a larger delta which is telling me this isn't random noise. This is 2nd year 20 and 21 year old players. So it's expected that they will perform better when they play at home vs the road. Rest in your own bed without needing to travel is a massive advantage for young players who aren't yet conditioned for this amount of games against the highest level competition with this much travel packed together.

Considering the Rockets have been on the road a near historic amount of times in a NBA season for he first quarter of a season and the Magic actually are near the opposite end of the spectrum, it's reasonable to expect their ts% to normalize and get closer to each others' as the season progresses.

Other things in Green's favor for a higher ceiling is he's a year younger. It may seem trivial but there is a bigger difference between a 20 and 21 year old than a 30 and 31 year old. Bodies and brains are still developing at this age.

I think you can make an argument that Franz is closer to his fully realized potential than Green is and it's still very close in terms of production between the two. And no I'm not saying that Wagner is any where close to his fully realized potential. I'm just am speaking in relative terms.

Edit: Wanted to note the Rockets record at home with Green's home splits. It's 5-5 this season. They are playing .500 ball at home with wins against multiple playoff caliber teams while Green is averaging 25 5 5 on 63% ts. So those gaudy numbers are contributing to actual wins against actual quality opponents. He also had games now where he scored efficiently and a lot while having his jumper broke for the entire games because he relentlessly is starting to attack the rim more and more and it's leading to good things... At home at least. Good thing the Rockets got a near record amount of home games for the rest of the season.

Green has moved past the phase of his career where "he's only good when his jumper is falling".