New Team: Curry/Bird or Magic/Lebron

[OhayoKD]

James is quite a bit better than either Bird or Curry, and you could make a very reasonable argument that Magic is better than them as well.

I'd go with James and Magic. i think people are having this image that they're both going to run into each other and collide like a loony toons cartoon. They are both versatile players who can play multiple positions at a high level.

While shooting is great - the best shot is in the paint by far, and Magic and James are going to get into the paint at will and get to the line. In contrast, those are relative weaknesses for Bird and Curry - especially the former.

Two ball handlers is not too much either, so no, they wouldn't hurt each other badly. Also, both guys can play in the post at an elite level so it's not like they have nothing to do off ball. In transition they would absolutely dominate - at a much higher level than Bird and Curry's slick passing/shooting combo.

can magic get into the paint at will?

Why not? What would prevent him from doing so?

Strength and reach would be my main concern. Not being able to hedge probably made it easier for magic to force teams to give him openings with his passing. Not to say his raw volume wouldn't improve, but raw volume =/ goodness. Everything is relative after all. See: Lebron and AD dropping 30 isn't enough to guarantee victory in the modern league

[70sFan]

can magic get into the paint at will?

Why not? What would prevent him from doing so?

Strength and reach would be my main concern. Not being able to hedge probably made it easier for magic to force teams to give him openings with his passing. Not to say his raw volume wouldn't improve, but raw volume =/ goodness. Everything is relative after all. See: Lebron and AD dropping 30 isn't enough to guarantee victory in the modern league

I can understand your concerns with reach, but strenght? Magic was very strong player, he could bang up inside with anyone. Luka does fine inside and Magic was quite similar to him physically.

About hedging - I understand that it gives teams more opportunities to defend slashers, but we're talking about Magic freaking Johnson here. He's considered the greatest playmaker ever for a reason and no, I have absolutely no concerns about his passing translating to modern league.

[OhayoKD]

Why not? What would prevent him from doing so?

Strength and reach would be my main concern. Not being able to hedge probably made it easier for magic to force teams to give him openings with his passing. Not to say his raw volume wouldn't improve, but raw volume =/ goodness. Everything is relative after all. See: Lebron and AD dropping 30 isn't enough to guarantee victory in the modern league

I can understand your concerns with reach, but strenght? Magic was very strong player, he could bang up inside with anyone. Luka does fine inside and Magic was quite similar to him physically.

About hedging - I understand that it gives teams more opportunities to defend slashers, but we're talking about Magic freaking Johnson here. He's considered the greatest playmaker ever for a reason and no, I have absolutely no concerns about his passing translating to modern league.

Passing should translate yeah, but inside scoring largely was a byproduct of teams selling out to prevent his passing. Lebron James isn't too far off as a passer I think, but he wasn't "at willing" defenses into giving him the paint after he lost the athleticism he had at 24.

Does Luka get into the paint "at will"? The percentage of his shots that come at within 3 yards out and his fg% seems pretty similar to Steph curry. Luka definitely has strong balance and is tough to move, but that's different from being able to force other players out of the way.

[70sFan]

Strength and reach would be my main concern. Not being able to hedge probably made it easier for magic to force teams to give him openings with his passing. Not to say his raw volume wouldn't improve, but raw volume =/ goodness. Everything is relative after all. See: Lebron and AD dropping 30 isn't enough to guarantee victory in the modern league

I can understand your concerns with reach, but strenght? Magic was very strong player, he could bang up inside with anyone. Luka does fine inside and Magic was quite similar to him physically.

About hedging - I understand that it gives teams more opportunities to defend slashers, but we're talking about Magic freaking Johnson here. He's considered the greatest playmaker ever for a reason and no, I have absolutely no concerns about his passing translating to modern league.

Passing should translate yeah, but inside scoring largely was a byproduct of teams selling out to prevent his passing. Lebron James isn't too far off as a passer I think, but he wasn't "at willing" defenses into giving him the paint after he lost the athleticism he had at 24.

Does Luka get into the paint "at will"? The percentage of his shots that come at within 3 yards out and his fg% seems pretty similar to Steph curry. Luka definitely has strong balance and is tough to move, but that's different from being able to force other players out of the way.

Luka takes 4.5 FGA at the rim and finishes them at absurd 76%, along with 5.2 FGA in 3-10 range (55.8% efficiency) and it doesn't even take into account how many times he forces defenses to collapse and passes out to shooters. I guess if you want to compare Luka to Morant, Giannis or Zion then he doesn't get into the paint "at will", but then you basically ask if Magic would be GOAT inside player. If that's your question then no, he wouldn't be, but he wouldn't need to.

[OhayoKD]

I can understand your concerns with reach, but strenght? Magic was very strong player, he could bang up inside with anyone. Luka does fine inside and Magic was quite similar to him physically.

About hedging - I understand that it gives teams more opportunities to defend slashers, but we're talking about Magic freaking Johnson here. He's considered the greatest playmaker ever for a reason and no, I have absolutely no concerns about his passing translating to modern league.

Passing should translate yeah, but inside scoring largely was a byproduct of teams selling out to prevent his passing. Lebron James isn't too far off as a passer I think, but he wasn't "at willing" defenses into giving him the paint after he lost the athleticism he had at 24.

Does Luka get into the paint "at will"? The percentage of his shots that come at within 3 yards out and his fg% seems pretty similar to Steph curry. Luka definitely has strong balance and is tough to move, but that's different from being able to force other players out of the way.

Luka takes 4.5 FGA at the rim and finishes them at absurd 76%, along with 5.2 FGA in 3-10 range (55.8% efficiency) and it doesn't even take into account how many times he forces defenses to collapse and passes out to shooters. I guess if you want to compare Luka to Morant, Giannis or Zion then he doesn't get into the paint "at will", but then you basically ask if Magic would be GOAT inside player. If that's your question then no, he wouldn't be, but he wouldn't need to.

semantic misunderstanding then. When i read "at will" i was seeing someone brute-forcing their way to the rim like AD can.

[HeartBreakKid]

can magic get into the paint at will?

Why not? What would prevent him from doing so?

Strength and reach would be my main concern. Not being able to hedge probably made it easier for magic to force teams to give him openings with his passing. Not to say his raw volume wouldn't improve, but raw volume =/ goodness. Everything is relative after all. See: Lebron and AD dropping 30 isn't enough to guarantee victory in the modern league

I said Magic would get into the paint at will not that he would finish at will. There is a difference so I do not think his reach is that relevant. Magic isn't Charles Barkley or anything like that - I am not trying to infer Magic will blow by his opponent and dunk. Just that he would get into the paint in an advantageous position (ahead of his defender, forcing a help defender to come with enough time for Magic to comfortably do something positive for his team).

Westbrook for example is able to get into the paint in his prime and he is way weaker and I reckon his reach isn't as good as Magic's. Westbrook couldn't finish very good so his effectiveness was limited in an all time sense, but obviously it was a major part of why he was an MVP player. (his comparable advantage over Magic is speed of course, but just pointing out that getting into the paint is still effective without necessarily finishing)

If Magic gets into the paint good things will happen even if he is not forming a lay up line. Not to mention he could post a lot of guys up and get into the paint that way, he does not have to attack from the top of the arch every time.

Magic put up some pretty big numbers when you include his assist total - a lot of that was from the paint I reckon. I do not envision Magic having to score more on volume, that is not what I meant by him getting into the paint. His volume is already sufficient because of his APG.


I suppose what I am trying to say is Magic was a more efficient and consistent player than Bird. That is probably because Magic is much better in the paint than Bird.

[OhayoKD]

Why not? What would prevent him from doing so?

Strength and reach would be my main concern. Not being able to hedge probably made it easier for magic to force teams to give him openings with his passing. Not to say his raw volume wouldn't improve, but raw volume =/ goodness. Everything is relative after all. See: Lebron and AD dropping 30 isn't enough to guarantee victory in the modern league

I said Magic would get into the paint at will not that he would finish at will. There is a difference so I do not think his reach is that relevant. Magic isn't Charles Barkley or anything like that - I am not trying to infer Magic will blow by his opponent and dunk. Just that he would get into the paint in an advantageous position (ahead of his defender, forcing a help defender to come with enough time for Magic to comfortably do something positive for his team).

Westbrook for example is able to get into the paint in his prime and he is way weaker and I reckon his reach isn't as good as Magic's. Westbrook couldn't finish very good so his effectiveness was limited in an all time sense, but obviously it was a major part of why he was an MVP player. (his comparable advantage over Magic is speed of course, but just pointing out that getting into the paint is still effective without necessarily finishing)

If Magic gets into the paint good things will happen even if he is not forming a lay up line. Not to mention he could post a lot of guys up and get into the paint that way, he does not have to attack from the top of the arch every time.

Magic put up some pretty big numbers when you include his assist total - a lot of that was from the paint I reckon. I do not envision Magic having to score more on volume, that is not what I meant by him getting into the paint. His volume is already sufficient because of his APG.


I suppose what I am trying to say is Magic was a more efficient and consistent player than Bird. That is probably because Magic is much better in the paint than Bird.

Fair enough. I need to read better.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I want a team based on the 1982 Lakers. I loved that fast break. Curry is best playing off the ball with Draymond as the passer and I can make a case for Draymond being a better passer than LeBron. LeBron was a flashier passer than Draymond. Bird is the best passer but Bird's dribble was not good enough for Bird to play point forward. Draymond's dribble is not that much better than Bird but with the floor more spaced out from better 3 point shooting and with Draymond not drawing help defenders as a scorer Draymond has less people poking at his dribble than Bird had poking at his dribble.

Give me the combined skills of these players at their peaks. A imaginary team to drool over that would be stylisically beautiful.

Nixon with his speed and Curry
Magic Draymond, Draymond knows how to play with Curry.
Rambis LeBron
Wilkes Klay Thompson.
Parish McAdoo, Parish could run the floor.
Bird Landsberger,, Bird and Landsberger don't run the floor even as well as young Rambis but Bird as a mid range shooter makes a great trailer on the fast break. Bird had great rebounding instincts but Landsberger may have had greater rebounding instincts. Bird threw great outket passes.

Cooper Igudala. Iguodala knows how to play with with Curry and Klay when the fast break fails and half court offense begins. Coop a Loop was beautiful.

I am leaving out Kareem on purpose. Kareem's outlet passes were good for the fast break but he did not run the floor well at that age and was not a finnisher on the fast break. Alot people have strong feelings about Kareem but I am focussed on the fast break.

I brought Klay Thompson into this because even with Curry on the team and LeBron and Bird providing some 3 point shooting I still felt that by moden standards the team would be weak at 3 point shooting. If I am turning Magic into a point forward the team needs another guard on defense. Wilkes was probably faster than Klay but Wilkes lacks Klay's experience at being a guard.

Lebron coukd use Rambis's understanding of the 1982 Lakers fast break to be a Worthy and Jordan like super addition to the 1982 Lakers fast break. Bird, Draymond, and LeBron are all acceptable small ball back up centers when Parish sits.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Curry and Bird.

I'm not overly sold on Magics shooting ability.

I actually think James is the weakest shooter of these 4.

Magic wasn't a great shooter moreso from 3 pt land unless his feet were set and he was wide open. He couldn't hope to score from there effectively off the dribble vs set defenders on a consistent basis.

He relied on a lot of posting up and backing down smaller opponents for his midrange offence. He wasn't as effective facing up and shooting jumpers vs opponents 1 on 1.

I think Lebron was a better shooter than Magic based on that.

[70sFan]

Curry and Bird.

I'm not overly sold on Magics shooting ability.

I actually think James is the weakest shooter of these 4.

Magic wasn't a great shooter moreso from 3 pt land unless his feet were set and he was wide open. He couldn't hope to score from there effectively off the dribble vs set defenders on a consistent basis.

He relied on a lot of posting up and backing down smaller opponents for his midrange offence. He wasn't as effective facing up and shooting jumpers vs opponents 1 on 1.

I think Lebron was a better shooter than Magic based on that.

Magic didn't take a lot of inefficient pull-up jumpshots, but it doesn't mean he couldn't create his shot facing up.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I actually think James is the weakest shooter of these 4.

Magic wasn't a great shooter moreso from 3 pt land unless his feet were set and he was wide open. He couldn't hope to score from there effectively off the dribble vs set defenders on a consistent basis.

He relied on a lot of posting up and backing down smaller opponents for his midrange offence. He wasn't as effective facing up and shooting jumpers vs opponents 1 on 1.

I think Lebron was a better shooter than Magic based on that.

Magic didn't take a lot of inefficient pull-up jumpshots, but it doesn't mean he couldn't create his shot facing up.

Whether you consider them inefficient or not doesn't change the fact that his skillset offensively in the aforementioned aspects was inferior to the other 3 players here.

[70sFan]

Magic wasn't a great shooter moreso from 3 pt land unless his feet were set and he was wide open. He couldn't hope to score from there effectively off the dribble vs set defenders on a consistent basis.

He relied on a lot of posting up and backing down smaller opponents for his midrange offence. He wasn't as effective facing up and shooting jumpers vs opponents 1 on 1.

I think Lebron was a better shooter than Magic based on that.

Magic didn't take a lot of inefficient pull-up jumpshots, but it doesn't mean he couldn't create his shot facing up.

Whether you consider them inefficient or not doesn't change the fact that his skillset offensively in the aforementioned aspects was inferior to the other 3 players here.

I don't agree, Magic could and did score from midrange consistently. He has a better touch than James and didn't have any notable limitations in shot creation.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I actually think James is the weakest shooter of these 4.

Magic wasn't a great shooter moreso from 3 pt land unless his feet were set and he was wide open. He couldn't hope to score from there effectively off the dribble vs set defenders on a consistent basis.

He relied on a lot of posting up and backing down smaller opponents for his midrange offence. He wasn't as effective facing up and shooting jumpers vs opponents 1 on 1.

I think Lebron was a better shooter than Magic based on that.

Magic didn't take a lot of inefficient pull-up jumpshots, but it doesn't mean he couldn't create his shot facing up.

I don't think Magic was shooting off the dribble from beyond mid-range. Maybe older Magic was shooting deep shots off the dribble but I prefer younger Magic.

[NbaAllDay]

Magic and LeBron both need the ball in their hands.

Curry Bird should have a ball handling small forward and a 3 point shooting off guard.

But neither LeBron nor Magic dominate the ball 50% of the time, so both them needing the ball isn't actually a negative.

No matter who the Curry/Bird acquires as a ball handler, they will pale in comparison to Magic & LeBron.

This myth that Magic and Lebron could only succeed by dominating the ball needs to die. They were at their BEST when the offense ran with them at the helm because how good they are as facilitator's but also because they never had anyone better at it play with them. Lebron has actually shown patches of extremely good off ball slashing. Could you imagine he had Magic at the helm.

People also how forget how good Lebron was in his early years without the ball with his speed and athleticism.

[SNPA]

Magic and LeBron both need the ball in their hands.

Curry Bird should have a ball handling small forward and a 3 point shooting off guard.

But neither LeBron nor Magic dominate the ball 50% of the time, so both them needing the ball isn't actually a negative.

No matter who the Curry/Bird acquires as a ball handler, they will pale in comparison to Magic & LeBron.

This myth that Magic and Lebron could only succeed by dominating the ball needs to die. They were at their BEST when the offense ran with them at the helm because how good they are as facilitator's but also because they never had anyone better at it play with them. Lebron has actually shown patches of extremely good off ball slashing. Could you imagine he had Magic at the helm.

People also how forget how good Lebron was in his early years without the ball with his speed and athleticism.

Nah. It can live on. It’s true. They are ball dominate players. Both guys need the ball to be superstars.

[NbaAllDay]

But neither LeBron nor Magic dominate the ball 50% of the time, so both them needing the ball isn't actually a negative.

No matter who the Curry/Bird acquires as a ball handler, they will pale in comparison to Magic & LeBron.

This myth that Magic and Lebron could only succeed by dominating the ball needs to die. They were at their BEST when the offense ran with them at the helm because how good they are as facilitator's but also because they never had anyone better at it play with them. Lebron has actually shown patches of extremely good off ball slashing. Could you imagine he had Magic at the helm.

People also how forget how good Lebron was in his early years without the ball with his speed and athleticism.

Nah. It can live on. It’s true. They are ball dominate players. Both guys need the ball to be superstars.

Just because you want it to be true, doesn't make it true.

Just because you believe it to be true, it still doesn't make it true.

Kobe had higher Usg% that Lebron did if you want to line up Peak v Peak as 1 small example but let's pretend that data isn't readily available.

[SNPA]

This myth that Magic and Lebron could only succeed by dominating the ball needs to die. They were at their BEST when the offense ran with them at the helm because how good they are as facilitator's but also because they never had anyone better at it play with them. Lebron has actually shown patches of extremely good off ball slashing. Could you imagine he had Magic at the helm.

People also how forget how good Lebron was in his early years without the ball with his speed and athleticism.

Nah. It can live on. It’s true. They are ball dominate players. Both guys need the ball to be superstars.

Just because you want it to be true, doesn't make it true.

Just because you believe it to be true, it still doesn't make it true.

Kobe had higher Usg% that Lebron did if you want to line up Peak v Peak as 1 small example but let's pretend that data isn't readily available.

The data you cited isn’t relevant to what I said.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

This myth that Magic and Lebron could only succeed by dominating the ball needs to die. They were at their BEST when the offense ran with them at the helm because how good they are as facilitator's but also because they never had anyone better at it play with them. Lebron has actually shown patches of extremely good off ball slashing. Could you imagine he had Magic at the helm.

People also how forget how good Lebron was in his early years without the ball with his speed and athleticism.

Nah. It can live on. It’s true. They are ball dominate players. Both guys need the ball to be superstars.

Just because you want it to be true, doesn't make it true.

Just because you believe it to be true, it still doesn't make it true.

Kobe had higher Usg% that Lebron did if you want to line up Peak v Peak as 1 small example but let's pretend that data isn't readily available.

Only it is true. Just because Westbrook and a few others were more ball dominant does not mean that LeBron and Magic are not ball dominant. They were more Ball dominant than Jordan and more Ball dominat than Durant and Curry.

I prefer time of possesion in the front court to usage stats.i don't think time of possesion stats exist for Magic's era.
I loved Magic and Norm Nixon playing together and Magic let Norm handle the ball but Norm was a damn fine point guard. Then Magic and Norm got a bit pissy about not having the ball in their hands all the time so Norm got traded for the rights to Byron Scott. A good move for the Lakers because Norm quickly got injured on the Clippers.