Who Are Your Top 5 Defensive Centers Of All Time? (In Order)

[ty 4191]

It's tough, but in Wilt's case off basically doesn't exist. He consistently played 45+ mpg, so it's very unlikely that it was caused by the time he was on the bench.

There is no possibility that Wilt anchored great defense while playing on the floor in 1963.


I'm aware of that, but it wasn't impossible to do better. Wilt and Russell had clearly a better longevity than Thurmond, so did Bellamy for example. Reed, Beaty and Cowens were worse, so Thurmond wasn't terrible but not great either.

I'm a little surprised you have Thurmond over Wilt, what's the biggest reason for that?

His consistency and enormous evidence of his defensive impact by WOWY studies.

Can you please post links to these WOWY studies? Thanks!!

[70sFan]

I'm a little surprised you have Thurmond over Wilt, what's the biggest reason for that?

His consistency and enormous evidence of his defensive impact by WOWY studies.

Can you please post links to these WOWY studies? Thanks!!

You can start here:

https://backpicks.com/metrics/wowyr/

[kcktiny]

Thurmond because of durability issues

In Thurmond's case, it's easy - during his prime (1966-74), Thurmond missed a total of 131 games in 9 seasons. That's equivalent of 18% of total games and 15 games per season. That's extreme concern for a superstar and it's not like Thurmond's longevity is elite either.

Over the 11 seasons of 1964-65 to 1974-75, Thurmond played the 2nd most total regular season minutes (31,519) among all NBA players. Only John Havlicek played more.

Those 11 seasons Thurmond played 41 min/g. Only 4 players those 11 years averaged more min/g - Chamberlain (45), Elvin Hayes (43), Jabbar (43), and Russell (42).

He also played in the NBA through the age of 35, when he played 997 minutes in the 1976-77 season. At that time in league history only 11 other players had played as many minutes or more in the league at the age of 35.

And through 1976-77 he was 9th in the league in most career regular season minutes played (35,875).

That sounds incredibly durable to me.

As for his longevity, you are incorrect - for the time it was in fact elite. He played in 14 NBA seasons, and by the end of the 1976-77 season (his last) only 4 players had played in more. At that time the most seasons played in by a player was 15 - by just 4 players, Hal Greer, Havlicek, Schayes, and Lenny Wilkens. Thurmond had played in 14, as had 10 other players. So at that time in league history only 15 players had played in 14+ seasons, out of some 1200+ total NBA players.

[70sFan]

Thurmond because of durability issues

In Thurmond's case, it's easy - during his prime (1966-74), Thurmond missed a total of 131 games in 9 seasons. That's equivalent of 18% of total games and 15 games per season. That's extreme concern for a superstar and it's not like Thurmond's longevity is elite either.

Over the 11 seasons of 1964-65 to 1974-75, Thurmond played the 2nd most total regular season minutes (31,519) among all NBA players. Only John Havlicek played more.

Those 11 seasons Thurmond played 41 min/g. Only 4 players those 11 years averaged more min/g - Chamberlain (45), Elvin Hayes (43), Jabbar (43), and Russell (42).

He also played in the NBA through the age of 35, when he played 997 minutes in the 1976-77 season. At that time in league history only 11 other players had played as many minutes or more in the league at the age of 35.

And through 1976-77 he was 9th in the league in most career regular season minutes played (35,875).

That sounds incredibly durable to me.

You cherry picked a sample that would suit your agenda, because it includes seasons without Russell, Wilt, West, Oscar, Hayes and Kareem.

Thurmond missed 15 games per prime season on average, that's not a good durability. He missed significant part of the season in 1967, 1968, 1970 and 1974. In two cases (1968, 1970), his injury costed Warriors a chance for a finals appeariance and playoff appeariance.

[kcktiny]

You cherry picked a sample that would suit your agenda, because it includes seasons without Russell, Wilt, West, Oscar, Hayes and Kareem.

I chose a larger sample size than you did, that included the sample of data you chose. How is that cherry-picking?

[70sFan]

You cherry picked a sample that would suit your agenda, because it includes seasons without Russell, Wilt, West, Oscar, Hayes and Kareem.

I chose a larger sample size than you did, that included the sample of data you chose. How is that cherry-picking?

Cause you did it for a different purpose - comparing him to other players from that span. You picked a sample that hurts most 1960s and 1970s stars, I simply pointed out that Thurmond missed a lot of games in his prime. That's substantial difference, if you ask me.

[ty 4191]

I'd like to vouch for Nate Thurmond here, for those that kept Thurmond out of their top 5, mainly. I think he's absolutely a top 3-4 candidate defensively.

Maybe GOAT as man on man defender....

I ran a study of Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, and Thurmond, Hakeem versus all their (respective) opposing HOF Centers. (Note: All stats include the playoffs):

Thurmond played 1,045 games in his career. 524 were against 16 opposing Hall of Fame Centers.

HOF Opponent Games
Jabaar 53
Beaty 57
Bellamy 62
Chamberlain 64
Gilmore 2
Lanier 34
Unseld 42
Hayes 49
Parish 2
Walton 5
Malone 2
Reed 46
Cowens 30
Sikma 3
McAdoo 18
Lovellette 8

Total 524

-Aggregate career stats for those 16 centers: 18.6/12.4/2.7 on .498 FG%
-Stats against Thurmond: 16.3/12.6/2.9 on .422 FG%.
-15% decrease in FG% for Thurmond.

As a frame of reference, here is Bill Russell vs. all HOF Centers:

HOF Opponent Games Played
Chamberlain 143
Bellamy 75
Embry 100
Reed 52
Beaty 49
Pettit 91
Lucas 62
Schayes 100
Thurmond 47
Johnston 27
Unseld 6
Hayes 5

Total 757

-Aggregate stats for those 12 centers, including playoffs: 18.6/13.5/2.6 on .464 FG%[./color]
-Stats versus Russell: 19.6/16.3/2.3 on [color=#FF0000].416 FG%
-10.3% drop in FG%.

Shaq vs. HOF Centers:

HOF Opponent Games
Olajuwon 28
Robinson 40
Parish 16
Mutumbo 29
Ewing 26
Malone 3
Mourning 16
Divac 48
Ming 18

Total 224

-Aggregate stats for those 9 HOF Centers: 17.4/9.9/2.1 on .513 FG%.
-Stats versus Shaq: 14.6/8.4/1.5 on .445 FG%.
-13.3% drop in FG%.

(Shaq's defense appears much stronger than I think most people give him credit for.)

Wilt vs. HOF Centers:

HOF Opponent Games
Russell 143
Bellamy 100
Embry 98
Reed 72
Beaty 67
Pettit 63
Lucas 82
Schayes 54
Thurmond 64
Lanier 16
Unseld 19
Hayes 22
Jabaar 28

Total 828

-Aggregate stats vs. those 13 HOF Centers: 18.3/13.2/2.8 on .479 FG%.
-Stats vs. Wilt: 19.6/14.9/3.0 on .435 FG%.
-9.2% drop in FG%.

(The perception of Wilt's defense, relative to Russell, appears to be underestimated here, generally, perhaps.)

Kareem vs. HOF Centers:

HOF Opponent Games
Bob Lanier 52
Artis Gilmore 50
Robert Parish 59
Hakeem Olajuwon 28
Wilt Chamberlain 28
Walt Bellamy 24
Zelmo Beaty 2
Patrick Ewing 6
Bill Walton 35
Ralph Sampson 30
Moses Malone 41
Willis Reed 21
Dave Cowens 43
Jack Sikma 64
Nate Thurmond 53
Dan Issel 50
Bob McAdoo 28
Wes Unseld 45

Total 659

-Aggregate stats vs. those 18 HOF Centers: 18.5/11.6/2.6 on .501 FG%.
-Stats vs. Kareem: 18.6/10.6/2.9 on .500 FG%
-Negligible change in FG% vs. Kareem.

Hakeem vs. HOF Centers:

HOF Opponent Games
Jabaar 28
Robinson 48
Parish 28
Malone 19
Shaq 28
Mutumbo 27
Divac 48
Ewing 35
Sikma 14
Gilmore 19
Wallace 10
Mourning 15
Issel 6
McAdoo 4
Sabonis 13
Walton 11
Sampson 6

Total 359

-Aggregate stats vs. those 17 Centers: 16.7/9.7/2.1 on .515 FG%.
-Stats vs. Hakeem: 14.1/9.1/1.9 on .484 FG%.
-6.4% drop in FG%.

Thoughts, everyone? All input would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks!

[Im Your Father]

I'd like to vouch for Nate Thurmond here, for those that kept Thurmond out of their top 5, mainly. I think he's absolutely a top 3-4 candidate defensively.

Maybe GOAT as man on man defender....

I ran a study of Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, and Thurmond, Hakeem versus all their (respective) opposing HOF Centers. (Note: All stats include the playoffs):

Thurmond played 1,045 games in his career. 524 were against 16 opposing Hall of Fame Centers.

HOF Opponent Games
Jabaar 53
Beaty 57
Bellamy 62
Chamberlain 64
Gilmore 2
Lanier 34
Unseld 42
Hayes 49
Parish 2
Walton 5
Malone 2
Reed 46
Cowens 30
Sikma 3
McAdoo 18
Lovellette 8

Total 524

-Aggregate career stats for those 16 centers: 18.6/12.4/2.7 on .498 FG%
-Stats against Thurmond: 16.3/12.6/2.9 on .422 FG%.
-15% decrease in FG% for Thurmond.

As a frame of reference, here is Bill Russell vs. all HOF Centers:

HOF Opponent Games Played
Chamberlain 143
Bellamy 75
Embry 100
Reed 52
Beaty 49
Pettit 91
Lucas 62
Schayes 100
Thurmond 47
Johnston 27
Unseld 6
Hayes 5

Total 757

-Aggregate stats for those 12 centers, including playoffs: 18.6/13.5/2.6 on .464 FG%[./color]
-Stats versus Russell: 19.6/16.3/2.3 on [color=#FF0000].416 FG%
-10.3% drop in FG%.

Shaq vs. HOF Centers:

HOF Opponent Games
Olajuwon 28
Robinson 40
Parish 16
Mutumbo 29
Ewing 26
Malone 3
Mourning 16
Divac 48
Ming 18

Total 224

-Aggregate stats for those 9 HOF Centers: 17.4/9.9/2.1 on .513 FG%.
-Stats versus Shaq: 14.6/8.4/1.5 on .445 FG%.
-13.3% drop in FG%.

(Shaq's defense appears much stronger than I think most people give him credit for.)

Wilt vs. HOF Centers:

HOF Opponent Games
Russell 143
Bellamy 100
Embry 98
Reed 72
Beaty 67
Pettit 63
Lucas 82
Schayes 54
Thurmond 64
Lanier 16
Unseld 19
Hayes 22
Jabaar 28

Total 828

-Aggregate stats vs. those 13 HOF Centers: 18.3/13.2/2.8 on .479 FG%.
-Stats vs. Wilt: 19.6/14.9/3.0 on .435 FG%.
-9.2% drop in FG%.

(The perception of Wilt's defense, relative to Russell, appears to be underestimated here, generally, perhaps.)

Kareem vs. HOF Centers:

HOF Opponent Games
Bob Lanier 52
Artis Gilmore 50
Robert Parish 59
Hakeem Olajuwon 28
Wilt Chamberlain 28
Walt Bellamy 24
Zelmo Beaty 2
Patrick Ewing 6
Bill Walton 35
Ralph Sampson 30
Moses Malone 41
Willis Reed 21
Dave Cowens 43
Jack Sikma 64
Nate Thurmond 53
Dan Issel 50
Bob McAdoo 28
Wes Unseld 45

Total 659

-Aggregate stats vs. those 18 HOF Centers: 18.5/11.6/2.6 on .501 FG%.
-Stats vs. Kareem: 18.6/10.6/2.9 on .500 FG%
-Negligible change in FG% vs. Kareem.

Hakeem vs. HOF Centers:

HOF Opponent Games
Jabaar 28
Robinson 48
Parish 28
Malone 19
Shaq 28
Mutumbo 27
Divac 48
Ewing 35
Sikma 14
Gilmore 19
Wallace 10
Mourning 15
Issel 6
McAdoo 4
Sabonis 13
Walton 11
Sampson 6

Total 359

-Aggregate stats vs. those 17 Centers: 16.7/9.7/2.1 on .515 FG%.
-Stats vs. Hakeem: 14.1/9.1/1.9 on .484 FG%.
-6.4% drop in FG%.

Thoughts, everyone? All input would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks!

This is all super interesting stuff. In the scheme of things though (and especially in the modern NBA) I just think help defense is infinitely more important for a center than man defense.

[penbeast0]

How so? Can you really say someone was the GOAT defender if someone averaged 28 ppg and 28 rpg on them for a career?

Considering he was facing the GOAT offensive player/rebounder, in his prime? Given that, I'd say, "Yes, we certainly can still call Russell the greatest defensive center in NBA history."

Naw we can't do that. No one ever did that to Joakim Noah and he wasn't considered as great a defender.

Very similar to saying that Jordan wasn't in Wilt's league as a scorer because WIlt averaged over 50 ppg one season and Jordan never even averaged 40. Maybe less relevant because Russell greatest defensive attribute was as a help defender. Look how the rest of Wilt's teams fared in those playoffs against Russell and you will see serious dropoffs.

IF ty could do it, maybe we could see each of those ATG centers and how they affected the teams they played. Admittedly a very noisy stat since the level of other defender and team defensive schemes make big differences.

[ty 4191]

IF ty could do it, maybe we could see each of those ATG centers and how they affected the teams they played. Admittedly a very noisy stat since the level of other defender and team defensive schemes make big differences.

Just let me know what information you need, and, I can delve, penbeast.

No thoughts on everything I presented on Thurmond, et. all?

[Narigo]

Russell
Hakeem
Robinson
Garnett
Stokes

[Pick And Roll]

Hakeem
Russell
Thurmond
Eaton
Robinson

Honorable mention: Mutombo