Where would 1993 MJ rank today?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Wow, what an absurd generalization...

No, my genralization is true.

Suppose A talened European pushes Sydney Green deeper onto the bench/ 9th man instead of 7th man; does the defense get better or worse? What European player other than Kirilenko was a better defender than Sydney Green?

I don't know, maybe the last 3 time DPOY? Are you aware that among last 6 DPOYs, 3 of them are European?

Oops, I was not thinking centers and I was not thinking of African Europeans.
Gobert was a legit DPOY even if he was not as good as Hakeem or Dikembe who also weren't American born.

Mikael Pietrus was as athletic as African American quality defendenders but Instill felt like European basketball did not prepare Pietrus to defend drives as well as Anericans defend drives. So in addidition to Africans usually have quicker feet than Europeans there also is the issue of Amercans having more experience defending quick feet than Europeans have experience defending quick feet.

Was Marc Gasol really the best defender in the league? Was Marc Gasol better than 2015 Bogut?

Giannis is a very good defender, maybe never the best defender but it is normal for great offensive players get extra votes for defensive player of the year even though in theory being a great offensive player should not help you win DPOY.

I am a fan of JoAkim Noah's defense.

I was thinking Doncic and Jokic and all of the Peja types.

The guys in the background of a Jordan dunk poster are usually better defenders than non-center white European players in the NBA today. But the white European non-centers in the NBA can kick the butts of the guys in the backgound of Jordan dunk posters at 3 point shooting.

I think I would rather have peak Mark Eaton than peak Gobert as my last line of defense against a Jordan drive.

But I was not thinking about centers. I was thinking about the power forwards and small forwards who were the help defenders clogging the paint making Jordan do acrobatic things to get arround them. Today those small forwards and power forwards would be afraid to leave the opposing forwards open to shoot 3s so they would not be clogging the paint on Jordan drives.

2013 DPOY votes
1. Marc Gasol, Grizzlies: 30 first-place votes, 212 points
2. LeBron James, Heat: 18 first-place votes, 149 points
3. Serge Ibaka, Thunder: 14 first-place votes, 122 points
4. Joakim Noah, Bulls: 13 first-place votes, 107 points
5. Tony Allen, Grizzlies: nine first-place votes, 102 points
6. Tim Duncan, Spurs: 11 first-place votes, 94 points
7. Larry Sanders, Bucks: four first-place votes, 90 points
8. Paul George, Pacers: eight first-place votes, 57 points
9. Andre Iguodala, Nuggets: five first-place votes, 43 points
10. Roy Hibbert, Pacers: three first-place votes, 36 points
11. Chris Paul, Clippers: two first-place votes, 19 points
12. Avery Bradley, Celtics: two first-place votes, 15 points
13. Tyson Chandler, Knicks: 11 points
14. Dwight Howard, Lakers: one first-place vote, six points
14. Luol Deng, Bulls: one first-place vote, six points

[70sFan]

Yes, Gasol was (one of) the best defender in the league in 2013. It's shocking to me how people after all these years can still question Gasol defensive ability.

So instead Europeans you mean white European players? That's even worse generalization. I guess Ricky Rubio should know he's not black American and should focus on offense instead...

[OhayoKD]

Where is the crowd of help defenders in the paint today? We have a legal zone now but the quality of the 3 point shooting today more than offsets the zone in taking away help defenders. You have to defend the screen setters now to stop the guys using the screens from getting open 3s.

Jordan would dominate in the current game more than he dominated in his own time where he had to deal with multiple help defenders. Jordan was a good but not great passer but he woukd find the open 3 point shooters if help defenders left 3 point shooters to help defend Jordan.

Yeah so uh...this isn't how era-translation works. I'm going to quote myself here to save time:

box-production going up does not mean a player has become more valuable. Scoring 30 ppg where the field is scoring 20 pgg isn't necessarily worse than scoring 40 ppg in a where the field scores 30 ppg. Crude example but it should illustrate the point. If you are going to argue Jordan gets better thanks to spacing, it can't just be a matter of numbers. You need to argue that he will be better relative to his peers in 2022 than 1991. According to ben, jordan was a limited pure passer even relative to kobe(found half as many good passes per 100 iirc), so i'm not sure having him helio vs more sophisticated and talented defenses produces better results(as far as winning goes)

More spacing does not automatically determine that a player will get more valuable offensively. Jordan's a relatively undersized interior threat and has limitations as a passer. What makes you think he gets more valuable in an era where the field has gotten much better at his unique strengths (shooting/off-ball movement)? Scarcity dictates value. This also isn't helped by Jordan's own self-proclaimed reluctancy to shoot threes in the first place, weakening one of his strengths.

I think Doc and BLOCKED make decent cases for Jordan getting worse, even without "era-strength" as a consideration:

1. (mj's shooting) is less valiuable in a league where shooting has skyrocketed
2. (mj off-ball) less valuable in a league where off-ball movement has skyrocketed


obviously less skilled at passing(completes half as many good passers per 100 per ben)than kobe and illegal d isn't gonna save him from the limitations of being a smol boi in the interior

however, I do still believe that the rise of the 3 means that the value of 2-point scorers goes down. Not hard for me to see him leading a championship team today, but I don't expect he'd stand out the same way today he did back then.

Forced to zero in on the best of Jordan, to me that's when the Big Chief Triangle acid trip gets in full swing before wear and tear start to take hold, so for me that's possibly '89-90, '90-91 or '91-92. Going with the middle year which is also the big breakthrough year.
.

And if we are going to project a player into the modern-league, the general talent-level of the competition is probably relevant:

There are 120 international players from 40 different countries spread across 6 continents today.





The league also hasn't expanded in almost 20 years. It added 6 (truly awful) teams from 1988-1989 through 1995-1996, expanding to 29 teams by 1997, the year in question.

Jordan would and could not dominate like he did in his actual career, today. The league is SO much deeper, broader, and more sophisticated today.

I think we need to get a bit deeper into this than "more ppg = better"

Jordan does not need to shoot 3s. He just needs to attack the rim in one on one situations.
Jordan attacking the rim one on one now ir one on 1 1/2 or one on 2 is going to produce more effeicient scoring than Jordan attacing the rim one on 2 1/2 in his own era.

The Europeans playing today are mostly worse defenders then the Americans playing in Jordan's era. The Europeans are in the NBA for their offensive skills not their defense. A few Europeans are in the NBA for size and rebounding not their defense.

Jordan in the current league will have a significantly higher field goal percentage. Jordan's shooting volume would probably fall some because in the current league he has better scorers to pass to. Put Jordan and Pippen out there with Longly, Harper and Rodman and who is Jordan supposed pass to. But Rodman can offensive rebound Jordan's missed shots. To get the space from 3 point shooting you must pass the ball to the 3 point shooters.
.

Again, an increase in raw volume/efficiency does not mean you've actually gotten better:

box-production going up does not mean a player has become more valuable. Scoring 30 ppg where the field is scoring 20 pgg isn't necessarily worse than scoring 40 ppg in a where the field scores 30 ppg.

'

I think the other side of this equation often not considered is that the league as a whole is more efficient and taking more 3's. Jordan could actually improve his efficiency a decent amount and still be less efficient relative to the rest of the league stars than his own era

Emphasis on the bolded parts

[OhayoKD]

Yes, Gasol was (one of) the best defender in the league in 2013. It's shocking to me how people after all these years can still question Gasol defensive ability.

So instead Europeans you mean white European players? That's even worse generalization. I guess Ricky Rubio should know he's not black American and should focus on offense instead...

Don't forget Gasol anchoring two of the greatest playoff defenses of all-time(2019 and 2020 Raptors) way past his prime

[Pick And Roll]

Yeah, Jordan in his prime ain't gonna be intimidated by the likes of Marc Gasol. He spent years dunking or finishing against guys who were more potent rim protectors than him.

[Pick And Roll]

'93 Jordan, especially with today's rules and spacing, is easily the best player in the game today. The only moderate threat would be Giannis but Jordan was more polished offensively.

[70sFan]

Yeah, Jordan in his prime ain't gonna be intimidated by the likes of Marc Gasol. He spent years dunking or finishing against guys who were more potent rim protectors than him.

Who said he would? That's not the context of this discussion.

[Heej]

No, my genralization is true.

Suppose A talened European pushes Sydney Green deeper onto the bench/ 9th man instead of 7th man; does the defense get better or worse? What European player other than Kirilenko was a better defender than Sydney Green?

I don't know, maybe the last 3 time DPOY? Are you aware that among last 6 DPOYs, 3 of them are European?

Oops, I was not thinking centers and I was not thinking of African Europeans.
Gobert was a legit DPOY even if he was not as good as Hakeem or Dikembe who also weren't American born.

Mikael Pietrus was as athletic as African American quality defendenders but Instill felt like European basketball did not prepare Pietrus to defend drives as well as Anericans defend drives. So in addidition to Africans usually have quicker feet than Europeans there also is the issue of Amercans having more experience defending quick feet than Europeans have experience defending quick feet.

Was Marc Gasol really the best defender in the league? Was Marc Gasol better than 2015 Bogut?

Giannis is a very good defender, maybe never the best defender but it is normal for great offensive players get extra votes for defensive player of the year even though in theory being a great offensive player should not help you win DPOY.

I am a fan of JoAkim Noah's defense.

I was thinking Doncic and Jokic and all of the Peja types.

The guys in the background of a Jordan dunk poster are usually better defenders than non-center white European players in the NBA today. But the white European non-centers in the NBA can kick the butts of the guys in the backgound of Jordan dunk posters at 3 point shooting.

I think I would rather have peak Mark Eaton than peak Gobert as my last line of defense against a Jordan drive.

But I was not thinking about centers. I was thinking about the power forwards and small forwards who were the help defenders clogging the paint making Jordan do acrobatic things to get arround them. Today those small forwards and power forwards would be afraid to leave the opposing forwards open to shoot 3s so they would not be clogging the paint on Jordan drives.

2013 DPOY votes
1. Marc Gasol, Grizzlies: 30 first-place votes, 212 points
2. LeBron James, Heat: 18 first-place votes, 149 points
3. Serge Ibaka, Thunder: 14 first-place votes, 122 points
4. Joakim Noah, Bulls: 13 first-place votes, 107 points
5. Tony Allen, Grizzlies: nine first-place votes, 102 points
6. Tim Duncan, Spurs: 11 first-place votes, 94 points
7. Larry Sanders, Bucks: four first-place votes, 90 points
8. Paul George, Pacers: eight first-place votes, 57 points
9. Andre Iguodala, Nuggets: five first-place votes, 43 points
10. Roy Hibbert, Pacers: three first-place votes, 36 points
11. Chris Paul, Clippers: two first-place votes, 19 points
12. Avery Bradley, Celtics: two first-place votes, 15 points
13. Tyson Chandler, Knicks: 11 points
14. Dwight Howard, Lakers: one first-place vote, six points
14. Luol Deng, Bulls: one first-place vote, six points

I feel that you do not understand the importance of IQ and help Defense. You likely need to do a better job including that in your analysis, or if you do not understand those concepts seek education

[HeartBreakKid]

The Europeans playing today are mostly worse defenders then the Americans playing in Jordan's era. The Europeans are in the NBA for their offensive skills not their defense. A few Europeans are in the NBA for size and rebounding not their defense.

Wow, what an absurd generalization...

No, my genralization is true.

Suppose A talened European pushes Sydney Green deeper onto the bench/ 9th man instead of 7th man; does the defense get better or worse? What European player other than Kirilenko was a better defender than Sydney Green?

*scratches head

Why would being from Europe make you a worse defender?

Europe is a big place and the players there have different strengths and weaknesses just like the Western Hemipshere. Why does it matter if Rudy Gobert is black or not also, lol - he is still from France regardless of his genetics. Black Europeans are just as relevant to European expansion into the NBA.

[Cavsfansince84]

MJ would be clear #1 to me but it wouldn't be overly obvious until the playoffs because of the crazy #'s that the top 3 guys are putting up now.

[trex_8063]

As I recall '93 was a marginally slumped year within his prime (for Pippen too, iirc; haven't looked at the numbers), maybe a bit gassed or burned out from the '92 Olympics (and it was somewhere around that time that his father was murdered). Though he still came thru big in the playoffs.

Overall, though.......it's hard not seeing even a prime [but non-peak] Jordan as NOT being a top-3 player, even in the today's league (which seems REALLY talented right now). Really good shot at #1 (I'd probably hedge that way, anyhow). Honestly, I could see him doing something kinda similar to what Doncic is doing: going to work in the post, punishing double-teams, crushing the mid-range, getting to the line [where he shoots notably better than Doncic]......maybe not as good as Doncic in playmaking on the pnr, probalby not quite as much deep range, but as good or marginally better at everything else, while also playing better defense.

That's.....probably the best player, isn't it?

[OhayoKD]

As I recall '93 was a marginally slumped year within his prime (for Pippen too, iirc; haven't looked at the numbers), maybe a bit gassed or burned out from the '92 Olympics (and it was somewhere around that time that his father was murdered). Though he still came thru big in the playoffs.

Overall, though.......it's hard not seeing even a prime [but non-peak] Jordan as NOT being a top-3 player, even in the today's league (which seems REALLY talented right now). Really good shot at #1 (I'd probably hedge that way, anyhow). Honestly, I could see him doing something kinda similar to what Doncic is doing: going to work in the post, punishing double-teams, crushing the mid-range, getting to the line [where he shoots notably better than Doncic]......maybe not as good as Doncic in playmaking on the pnr, probalby not quite as much deep range, but as good or marginally better at everything else, while also playing better defense.

That's.....probably the best player, isn't it?

How big do you have the gap between 93 mj and 88-90 mj? I imagine the defensive impact is significantly diminished.

I have the gap between donicic and giannis /curry larger than you do I think. The floor for peak MJ is probably 3rd right now, and if you aren't skeptical of translation playoff resiliency can probably take him to 1.

[OhayoKD]

Yeah, Jordan in his prime ain't gonna be intimidated by the likes of Marc Gasol. He spent years dunking or finishing against guys who were more potent rim protectors than him.

Who said he would? That's not the context of this discussion.

Who are these more "potent" defensive anchors btw?

I suppose Gasol may not be an ideal matchup for guards, but as we saw with the raptors, if you pair him with good perimeter help, he can make even giannis(and embid) struggle inside.

[falcolombardi]

As I recall '93 was a marginally slumped year within his prime (for Pippen too, iirc; haven't looked at the numbers), maybe a bit gassed or burned out from the '92 Olympics (and it was somewhere around that time that his father was murdered). Though he still came thru big in the playoffs.

Overall, though.......it's hard not seeing even a prime [but non-peak] Jordan as NOT being a top-3 player, even in the today's league (which seems REALLY talented right now). Really good shot at #1 (I'd probably hedge that way, anyhow). Honestly, I could see him doing something kinda similar to what Doncic is doing: going to work in the post, punishing double-teams, crushing the mid-range, getting to the line [where he shoots notably better than Doncic]......maybe not as good as Doncic in playmaking on the pnr, probalby not quite as much deep range, but as good or marginally better at everything else, while also playing better defense.

That's.....probably the best player, isn't it?

i dont think luka> jordan as passers is alk that arguable actually, specially off the pick and roll

Ben taylor trackint has kobe doing great passing reads twice as frequently as jordan (somethingh i find very credible, kobe has some impressive passing when he is not hero balling lol)

kobe, who himself is below luka (per my own viewing of both) as a passet

Jordan has a bunch of advantages (defense, midrange shooting, free throw shooting, off-ball game) but running a pick and roll is not one of those imo

He was good at finding the open pass off his scoring gravity (and he had a ton of that), but didnt make the great finds of a kobe/luka

[70sFan]

Yeah, Jordan in his prime ain't gonna be intimidated by the likes of Marc Gasol. He spent years dunking or finishing against guys who were more potent rim protectors than him.

Who said he would? That's not the context of this discussion.

Who are these more "potent" defensive anchors btw?

I suppose Gasol may not be an ideal matchup for guards, but as we saw with the raptors, if you pair him with good perimeter help, he can make even giannis(and embid) struggle inside.

To stop quick slasher at the rim, I'd pick someone like Hakeem or even Mutombo over Gasol. Marc was definitely a better defender than Mutombo against big, physical players like Giannis or Embiid, but Deke was insane rim protector. Seriously, every time I watch him I finish more impressed. I'm rewatching 2001 finals (tracking Shaq possessions) and even though Mutombo couldn't guard Shaq at all, he still found a way to impact the game.

[Peregrine01]

As I recall '93 was a marginally slumped year within his prime (for Pippen too, iirc; haven't looked at the numbers), maybe a bit gassed or burned out from the '92 Olympics (and it was somewhere around that time that his father was murdered). Though he still came thru big in the playoffs.

Overall, though.......it's hard not seeing even a prime [but non-peak] Jordan as NOT being a top-3 player, even in the today's league (which seems REALLY talented right now). Really good shot at #1 (I'd probably hedge that way, anyhow). Honestly, I could see him doing something kinda similar to what Doncic is doing: going to work in the post, punishing double-teams, crushing the mid-range, getting to the line [where he shoots notably better than Doncic]......maybe not as good as Doncic in playmaking on the pnr, probalby not quite as much deep range, but as good or marginally better at everything else, while also playing better defense.

That's.....probably the best player, isn't it?

I don’t see MJ anywhere near being the pick and roll player that Doncic is. The more apt analogy would be a bigger Ja Morant with better mid-range shooting, imo. I don’t see him going to the post as much in today’s game.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I doubt there’s some sort of absurd gap between 1993 MJ and 1991 MJ, in that regard I’d probably have him first as well

I think Giannis/Jokic/Curry are a clear top 3 rn, then you have guys like Tatum/Luka/KD/AD and a few guys probably

I think Giannis is a guy that probably goes harder in the playoffs at least defensively, but I don’t think that’s better than MJ is in the playoffs, Jokic has those playoff defensive concerns and Curry is kinda targetable altho he can send guys to help better, and just in general I’d rather have Jordan

As for how Jordan would translate, being a ridiculous 1v1 scorer generally helps, prolly gonna be something

I think his off ball game, catch and shoot midrange and stuff, would probably not really be a thing anymore today but his cutting would still be great. His three pointer obv wasn’t anything special but he’s still probably one of the best if not the best scorer in the league

Probably something like a better version of playoff jimmy.

Might sound like disrespect but Playoff Jimmy was probably the best player in the nba last postseason outside of the games his knee was obliterated, so I’d probably bet 1993 MJ is #1 today if he’s under normal/good circumstances (so probably #1).

The main contenders are Jokic/Curry/Giannis, but I’d very solidly pick Jordan over any of them right now

[Ambrose]

I'd say #1. There are a lot of valid arguments in this thread about production not necessarily being equal to impact, as well as things like shooting/off-ball movement being less valuable for him in this era. However, his on-ball prowess would be more valuable, as would his scoring resiliency.

[ShotCreator]

Don’t see him being better than Jokic or Anthony Davis.

Worse offensively than Curry.

He’d be right around Luka level, at best. Weak defense, high caliber offense that isn’t GOAT level, or all that close.

93 Jordan is the worst prime Jordan season by far physically and mentally.

To me it’s a step down from 96 somehow. Jordan didn’t even look good in the summer Olympics before the season. He was a gunning, chucking massive usage guard with a significantly waning motor and dented athleticism. But also played the same style of his career up to that point.

After 95, he really mentally and physically adjusted into some smarter, more physical strength based ball than ever before on both ends.

93 Jordan was by all intents a mess to me. Not a true peak Jordan kind of year.

[capfan33]

As I recall '93 was a marginally slumped year within his prime (for Pippen too, iirc; haven't looked at the numbers), maybe a bit gassed or burned out from the '92 Olympics (and it was somewhere around that time that his father was murdered). Though he still came thru big in the playoffs.

Overall, though.......it's hard not seeing even a prime [but non-peak] Jordan as NOT being a top-3 player, even in the today's league (which seems REALLY talented right now). Really good shot at #1 (I'd probably hedge that way, anyhow). Honestly, I could see him doing something kinda similar to what Doncic is doing: going to work in the post, punishing double-teams, crushing the mid-range, getting to the line [where he shoots notably better than Doncic]......maybe not as good as Doncic in playmaking on the pnr, probalby not quite as much deep range, but as good or marginally better at everything else, while also playing better defense.

That's.....probably the best player, isn't it?

i dont think luka> jordan as passers is alk that arguable actually, specially off the pick and roll

Ben taylor trackint has kobe doing great passing reads twice as frequently as jordan (somethingh i find very credible, kobe has some impressive passing when he is not hero balling lol)

kobe, who himself is below luka (per my own viewing of both) as a passet

Jordan has a bunch of advantages (defense, midrange shooting, free throw shooting, off-ball game) but running a pick and roll is not one of those imo

He was good at finding the open pass off his scoring gravity (and he had a ton of that), but didnt make the great finds of a kobe/luka

To add onto this, Luka's a pretty strange comparison to MJ IMO. There are quite a few players in today's game that emulate Jordan to an extent, Luka isn't really one of them at all. A supercharged Derozan or Kawhi makes a lot more sense. Luka this season actually plays a lot like 87-91 Magic who I don't think anyone would compare to MJ in terms of playstyle.