Where would ‘04 Kevin Garnett rank today?

[70sFan]

the best one-dimension wing defenders, like Bowen, Tony Allen, even centers like Gobert or Mutombo, should not be your max players.

Mutombo did far better as the main guy than most offensive stars. I mean, Mutombo teams overachieved both in RS and PS relative to the talent they had.

Jokic last year had 0 teammates with a positive +/-; KG 05 had 4!

When did we start evaluating players based on raw +/-?

[dygaction]

the best one-dimension wing defenders, like Bowen, Tony Allen, even centers like Gobert or Mutombo, should not be your max players.

Mutombo did far better as the main guy than most offensive stars. I mean, Mutombo teams overachieved both in RS and PS relative to the talent they had.

Jokic last year had 0 teammates with a positive +/-; KG 05 had 4!

When did we start evaluating players based on raw +/-?

As long as you are not calling AI's 76ers as Mutombo's team.
BPM certainly tells a lot. Forget abt teammates, what are the things, box score or advanced stats that 05 KG did better than 22 Jokic?

[FJS]

If you pay Carmelo Anthony the max you will have a more difficult time finding the defense you need.

Your theory has a lot of holes in it.

Do you think?
To make Carmelo work you need someone like gary Payton II/Bruce Bowen/ Cris Andersen.
To make Gobert work, you need to pay someone like Donovan Mitchell, Anthony Edwards. If they are in their rookie scale is fine... but if you are going to pay I think it's pretty more difficult to pay for Offense than Defense.

Regards.

I doubt a team build around Melo with his best teammates as Payton/Bowen/Andersen would even make the playoffs.

Probably... Gobert with Towns, Ant and Russell are not right now in playoffs either.

At least Carmelo, GPII, Bowen & Andersen would be cheaper.

[70sFan]

As long as you are not calling AI's 76ers as Mutombo's team.

You don't need to bring up 2001, because Mutombo did very well in 1994-99 with what he had. His team upset two much stronger teams (1994 and 1999), won a series against another comparable one (1997 Pistons). They also almost upset another contending team in 1994, barely losing to Jazz in 7 games.

Mutombo was a stellar postseason performer. You may brush off 2001, but the fact is that Mutombo posted by far the highest on/off among the Sixers regular rotation, far better than Iverson. To be fair to AI, he basically didn't leave the floor so it's hard to compare, but acting like Mutombo had no case as the best player in 2001 postseason is just a blind following of ppg.

BPM certainly tells a lot. Forget abt teammates, what are the things, box score or advanced stats that 05 KG did better than 22 Jokic?

I'm not arguing who's better between 2022 Jokic and 2005 Garnett. We're talking about the strength of teams. If you think that "BPM certainly tells a lot", then let's make some calculations. If we take 10 KG and Jokic teammates with most minutes played and calculate their average BPM weighed by minutes played, then we get these results:

2005 KG average teammate: -1.06 BPM
2022 Jokic average teammate: -1.19 BPM

So yeah, it seems that Jokic had slightly worse team than KG based on BPM. I don't find BPM useful at all, because it does a horrible job estimating defensive impact. Instead, we should look at OBPM:

2005 KG average teammate: -0.49 OBPM
2022 Jokic average teammate: -0.57 OBPM

Again, similar story. It seems that Jokic has slightly worse supporting cast based on boxscore composites. It makes sense, because two elite bigs lead their teams to similar results, which leads us to another point:

"Jokic dragged a team with worse support than KG's 05 to playoffs."

Yeah, but Nuggets finished with a staggering +2.15 SRS vs +1.73 SRS for 2005 Minny. Nuggets with their record would barely make the playoffs in 2005 at 8th seed (vs 6th in reality), while KG would make the playoffs with his team posting 44 wins (actually, he'd finish with 8th seed, so play-ins these days). You're acting like there is some gigantic difference between these two teams, when in reality the biggest difference between their results is the strength of Wester Conference.

[70sFan]

Do you think?
To make Carmelo work you need someone like gary Payton II/Bruce Bowen/ Cris Andersen.
To make Gobert work, you need to pay someone like Donovan Mitchell, Anthony Edwards. If they are in their rookie scale is fine... but if you are going to pay I think it's pretty more difficult to pay for Offense than Defense.

Regards.

I doubt a team build around Melo with his best teammates as Payton/Bowen/Andersen would even make the playoffs.

Probably... Gobert with Towns, Ant and Russell are not right now in playoffs either.

At least Carmelo, GPII, Bowen & Andersen would be cheaper.

Curry with Green, Klay and Poole are not in the playoffs now either. Great to know that you find them worthless.

[HeartBreakKid]

Carmelo knows a lot about not being in the playoffs. Unlike Garnett he was missing the playoffs in the East of all places.


Carmelo isn't a better player than Mutumbo. There isn't any tangible argument for it other than he scores more points which he doesn't do well enough for that to matter. Carmelo did not have more success than Mutumbo did, he objectively had less.

Mutumbo had games where he carried Allen Iverson who is better than Carmelo Anthony. Mutumbo is a significantly better player.

[70sFan]

Carmelo knows a lot about not being in the playoffs. Unlike Garnett he was missing the playoffs in the East of all places.


Carmelo isn't a better player than Mutumbo. There isn't any tangible argument for it other than he scores more points which he doesn't do well enough for that to matter. Carmelo did not have more success than Mutumbo did, he objectively had less.

The funniest part is when people say that 2001 doesn't matter for Mutombo, because he "was carried by Iverson", but the same people rave about 2009, when Melo had significantly better team around him and likely wasn't even the best Nuggets player...

[HeartBreakKid]

Carmelo knows a lot about not being in the playoffs. Unlike Garnett he was missing the playoffs in the East of all places.


Carmelo isn't a better player than Mutumbo. There isn't any tangible argument for it other than he scores more points which he doesn't do well enough for that to matter. Carmelo did not have more success than Mutumbo did, he objectively had less.

The funniest part is when people say that 2001 doesn't matter for Mutombo, because he "was carried by Iverson", but the same people rave about 2009, when Melo had significantly better team around him and likely wasn't even the best Nuggets player...

Or that Carmelo also had Iverson on his team and Iverson even had a career year - and they got gentlemen swept in the first round in 2007.

That would infer that even if both Mutumbo and Carmelo were "second guys" that you would have more success with Mutumbo.

[FJS]

I doubt a team build around Melo with his best teammates as Payton/Bowen/Andersen would even make the playoffs.

Probably... Gobert with Towns, Ant and Russell are not right now in playoffs either.

At least Carmelo, GPII, Bowen & Andersen would be cheaper.

Curry with Green, Klay and Poole are not in the playoffs now either. Great to know that you find them worthless.

Curry is 35. Klay and Green aren't the same they were. And GSW are throwing games by resting some of their players. And they have won 4 rings, so they have not any sense or urgency.

I don't think they are in the same spot that Minny or in the same spot KG was when he was in Wolves.

[FJS]

Carmelo knows a lot about not being in the playoffs. Unlike Garnett he was missing the playoffs in the East of all places.


Carmelo isn't a better player than Mutumbo. There isn't any tangible argument for it other than he scores more points which he doesn't do well enough for that to matter. Carmelo did not have more success than Mutumbo did, he objectively had less.

The funniest part is when people say that 2001 doesn't matter for Mutombo, because he "was carried by Iverson", but the same people rave about 2009, when Melo had significantly better team around him and likely wasn't even the best Nuggets player...

Or that Carmelo also had Iverson on his team and Iverson even had a career year - and they got gentlemen swept in the first round in 2007.

That would infer that even if both Mutumbo and Carmelo were "second guys" that you would have more success with Mutumbo.

In 2001 Mutombo only played 26 games for sixers. In fact they were 41-14 before the trade and 15-12 with him.

They went to finals, (and it was not a easy path with 4-3 vs Raptors and 4-3 vs Bucks) but this trade was done thinking in the finals and someone who could contend O'Neal. But they were doing better with Kukoc, Mohammed and Ratliff than with Mutombo and McLeod..

Next year with Mutombo playing the whole year, they were 43-39.

[CharityStripe34]

Same as he was during the early 2000's. One of the 2-3 best players on Earth.