Was Patrick Ewing an elite center?

[Clyde Frazier]

he was not a winner

His teams won a lot of games and if Starks actually could hit a shot in game 7 he'd be a champion.

Looking at the Knicks over the 22 years since he left, I'd say he very much is a winner.

i would say, looking back, that it was pitino and then riley who changed the culture @nyk. specifically, ewing barely made a bump

in his first year nyk was a .360 ball club. when they hired pitino they made a 12game bump. and then of course came riley and then jvg added a bit, and when ewing was traded the knicks never took a hit and seattle didn't get better.

but what i remember most about ewing was choking at inopportune times, whether at the ft line or dumb finger rolls when he never finger rolled in his life. it was these little things he did at poorly timed moments but then that's the diff between winners, non-winners, and losers. doing the wrong things at the wrong time. ewing benefitted from playing in new york city

nyk was a blue collar grind it down team and they were riley's team, not pat's

Lol you're just a hater. Keep on hating.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

he was not a winner

His teams won a lot of games and if Starks actually could hit a shot in game 7 he'd be a champion.

Looking at the Knicks over the 22 years since he left, I'd say he very much is a winner.

i would say, looking back, that it was pitino and then riley who changed the culture @nyk. specifically, ewing barely made a bump

in his first year nyk was a .360 ball club. when they hired pitino they made a 12game bump. and then of course came riley and then jvg added a bit, and when ewing was traded the knicks never took a hit and seattle didn't get better.

but what i remember most about ewing was choking at inopportune times, whether at the ft line or dumb finger rolls when he never finger rolled in his life. it was these little things he did at poorly timed moments but then that's the diff between winners, non-winners, and losers. doing the wrong things at the wrong time. ewing benefitted from playing in new york city

nyk was a blue collar grind it down team and they were riley's team, not pat's

Other than 1995, a razor thin loss to Indiana. Ewings Knicks were losing to teams/superstars that were better than the Knicks/Ewing himself.

It's not like he/they lost series they were supposed to win.

And imho Ewings performance vs a vastly superior Boston Celtics team in 1990 is the greatest individual against the odds/back against the wall ball busting comeback performance in a playoff series in NBA history.

The Knicks didn't even look like an NBA team the first 2 games to start that series (one loss they gave up a NBA playoff record 157 points).

After that....Ewing went bat crazy.

[City of Trees]

Ewing is to Hakeem what Lillard is to Curry.

Smits is to Ewing what Capela is to AD

[Snacks]

after already reaching elite defensive level, he ascended completely in1990 - averaging 29pts 11boards and 4 blocks - playing 40 minutes for 82 games. Injuries had already started affecting his fluid gate, but for six years he averaged 25pts 11 boards 3 blocks.
The Dream for about that same amount of time starting in 1990 averaged 26 pts 12 boards 4 blocks.
They were on the same tier -- until Ewing's knees and wrist took away his extra level.
The one thing that this argument seems to miss, especially those who incorrectly think Robinson deserves to even be in this conversation, is that both these guys intimidated the hell out of players, and won b/c of it. Even Shaq was intimidated by an already declining Ewing. Ewing's impact has always been underrated. I still remember how knick fans thought the knicks would be better without an aging Ewing. Yeah, how did that work out.

No reasonable person thinks that Ewing is considered better than Robinson. Robinson was a MVP level player for years, while Ewing just wasn’t. Outside of biased Knick fans, you will not find many people to agree with you.

Just b/c most people agree on something doesn't make them right, no matter how reasonable. We will not agree, but Robinson was empty stats and was never true MVP candidate in my book b/c he did nothing of consequence until a real impact player joined the roster. Ewing was a true MVP, b/c most of those knicks teams would of never been in contention without him.
...and yet another forgotten and underrated aspect of Ewing's accomplishments is that he did this in New York, one of the hardest places to lead a team to victory.

[DoctorX]

he was not a winner

His teams won a lot of games and if Starks actually could hit a shot in game 7 he'd be a champion.

Looking at the Knicks over the 22 years since he left, I'd say he very much is a winner.

i would say, looking back, that it was pitino and then riley who changed the culture @nyk. specifically, ewing barely made a bump

in his first year nyk was a .360 ball club. when they hired pitino they made a 12game bump. and then of course came riley and then jvg added a bit, and when ewing was traded the knicks never took a hit and seattle didn't get better.

but what i remember most about ewing was choking at inopportune times, whether at the ft line or dumb finger rolls when he never finger rolled in his life. it was these little things he did at poorly timed moments but then that's the diff between winners, non-winners, and losers. doing the wrong things at the wrong time. ewing benefitted from playing in new york city

nyk was a blue collar grind it down team and they were riley's team, not pat's

They took a huge hit. They went from an elite team to just a middling playoff team. They also lost in the first round for the first time in 11 years to the same Raptors team they defeated a year earlier with Ewing.

[RHODEY]

His teams won a lot of games and if Starks actually could hit a shot in game 7 he'd be a champion.

Looking at the Knicks over the 22 years since he left, I'd say he very much is a winner.

i would say, looking back, that it was pitino and then riley who changed the culture @nyk. specifically, ewing barely made a bump

in his first year nyk was a .360 ball club. when they hired pitino they made a 12game bump. and then of course came riley and then jvg added a bit, and when ewing was traded the knicks never took a hit and seattle didn't get better.

but what i remember most about ewing was choking at inopportune times, whether at the ft line or dumb finger rolls when he never finger rolled in his life. it was these little things he did at poorly timed moments but then that's the diff between winners, non-winners, and losers. doing the wrong things at the wrong time. ewing benefitted from playing in new york city

nyk was a blue collar grind it down team and they were riley's team, not pat's

Other than 1995, a razor thin loss to Indiana. Ewings Knicks were losing to teams/superstars that were better than the Knicks/Ewing himself.

It's not like he/they lost series they were supposed to win.

And imho Ewings performance vs a vastly superior Boston Celtics team in 1990 is the greatest individual against the odds/back against the wall ball busting comeback performance in a playoff series in NBA history.

The Knicks didn't even look like an NBA team the first 2 games to start that series (one loss they gave up a NBA playoff record 157 points).

After that....Ewing went bat crazy.

Yes...that was prime Ewing....just scarey.

[RHODEY]

after already reaching elite defensive level, he ascended completely in1990 - averaging 29pts 11boards and 4 blocks - playing 40 minutes for 82 games. Injuries had already started affecting his fluid gate, but for six years he averaged 25pts 11 boards 3 blocks.
The Dream for about that same amount of time starting in 1990 averaged 26 pts 12 boards 4 blocks.
They were on the same tier -- until Ewing's knees and wrist took away his extra level.
The one thing that this argument seems to miss, especially those who incorrectly think Robinson deserves to even be in this conversation, is that both these guys intimidated the hell out of players, and won b/c of it. Even Shaq was intimidated by an already declining Ewing. Ewing's impact has always been underrated. I still remember how knick fans thought the knicks would be better without an aging Ewing. Yeah, how did that work out.

No reasonable person thinks that Ewing is considered better than Robinson. Robinson was a MVP level player for years, while Ewing just wasn’t. Outside of biased Knick fans, you will not find many people to agree with you.

Just b/c most people agree on something doesn't make them right, no matter how reasonable. We will not agree, but Robinson was empty stats and was never true MVP candidate in my book b/c he did nothing of consequence until a real impact player joined the roster. Ewing was a true MVP, b/c most of those knicks teams would of never been in contention without him.
...and yet another forgotten and underrated aspect of Ewing's accomplishments is that he did this in New York, one of the hardest places to lead a team to victory.

Robinson had slightly better stats...but Ewing played in the East...and back in those days that mattered. I put them on the same level roughly. I think Ewing accomplished more with less talent around him.

[Got Nuffin]

This is where sometimes I feel bad for certain players historically...

While guys like Starks, Oakley, Mason, McDaniel etc were all really, really good tough players, most of them were mainly just defensive players, no real offensive firepower for help...Ewing really never got a chance to play with another elite player yet somehow gets penalised by not getting through the GOAT and a team on paper that the Knicks have no business giving the kind of wars they did to the Bulls but each year they battled the hell out of one of the most stacked teams in NBA history and held their own. Imagine Ewing had a legitimate multiple time all-star (don't say Starks lol) to play with how different he may been viewed as a player right now...but instead he's almost looked upon as some sort of failure.

Robinson (who's same tier as Ewing) didn't do anything until he got Duncan. It's part of why I put Hakeem in a completely different class but he was able to do it essentially without another big time player his first go round but then he got Drexler and won another. Even Malone had Stockton (and Hornacek), Kemp had Payton, Shaq had Penny, meanwhile Ewing with no real true 2nd star was somehow expected to beat MJ/Pipp/Grant or Rodman...plus Kukoc lol. Bit of a rant but a thread as ridiculous as this one goes to show just how underrated & underappreciated Ewing was/is. EASILY was an elite center, no question about it.

I agree with this 100%. Ewing never got that elite offensive talent to play with. Starks was the closest he got and he was bagging groceries until the Knicks called him up. It's a testament to how much of a dog Starks is (in fighting spirit sense), but also goes to show how little top-tier talent Ewing had to work with.

Give Ewing a Drexler, Mitch Richmond hell even Kevin Johnson to go with his defensive guys and we'd remember that team and him completely differently.

I disagree with the notion that Robinson was on a different tier than Ewing. Talent-wise the Admiral might be one of the most talented ever, even including guys like Durant, Lebron and Giannis, but he had a rep for being soft in an era where big men were expected to be intimidators and also a rep for disappearing in big moments and games - whether that was justified or not that was the supposed knock on him.

[Lalouie]

His teams won a lot of games and if Starks actually could hit a shot in game 7 he'd be a champion.

Looking at the Knicks over the 22 years since he left, I'd say he very much is a winner.

i would say, looking back, that it was pitino and then riley who changed the culture @nyk. specifically, ewing barely made a bump

in his first year nyk was a .360 ball club. when they hired pitino they made a 12game bump. and then of course came riley and then jvg added a bit, and when ewing was traded the knicks never took a hit and seattle didn't get better.

but what i remember most about ewing was choking at inopportune times, whether at the ft line or dumb finger rolls when he never finger rolled in his life. it was these little things he did at poorly timed moments but then that's the diff between winners, non-winners, and losers. doing the wrong things at the wrong time. ewing benefited from playing in new york city

nyk was a blue collar grind it down team and they were riley's team, not pat's

They took a huge hit. They went from an elite team to just a middling playoff team. They also lost in the first round for the first time in 11 years to the same Raptors team they defeated a year earlier with Ewing.

almost anytime you build around a particular player, if said player is a star he will leave a hole.

example: when klove left minnie, minnie went from a 40win team to a 16 win team and never even got a whiff of 40 until,,,,,thibs/butler/crawford/gibson/rose/teague plus wiggins plus towns.

am i going to sit here and say kevin was worth all that? hellz no! but i am positing that when a central star around whom a team is built leaves,,,that is a big hole to fill.
similarly we all know the stats of the lebron/kyrie/love cavs without lebron. i'm not trying to diminish lebron at all but those cavs team were built around lebron - the whole point of getting those supporting players was to allow lebron to do his thing, and when he was out that was a huge hole to fill,,,,because no way should love/kyrie/dunleavy/frye/miller/korver/smith/thompson go winless w/o lebron.

unless you want to blame kyrie, and i'm all on board with that!

the first choice for this thread "CLOSE TO HAKEEM. CLUTCH" ------NO WAY
i think what we have here is an overload of knick fans flooding the poll,,,,and who are not old enough to remember the holzman knicks (ewing is the greatest knick my @$$ )

[Blame Rasho]

after already reaching elite defensive level, he ascended completely in1990 - averaging 29pts 11boards and 4 blocks - playing 40 minutes for 82 games. Injuries had already started affecting his fluid gate, but for six years he averaged 25pts 11 boards 3 blocks.
The Dream for about that same amount of time starting in 1990 averaged 26 pts 12 boards 4 blocks.
They were on the same tier -- until Ewing's knees and wrist took away his extra level.
The one thing that this argument seems to miss, especially those who incorrectly think Robinson deserves to even be in this conversation, is that both these guys intimidated the hell out of players, and won b/c of it. Even Shaq was intimidated by an already declining Ewing. Ewing's impact has always been underrated. I still remember how knick fans thought the knicks would be better without an aging Ewing. Yeah, how did that work out.

No reasonable person thinks that Ewing is considered better than Robinson. Robinson was a MVP level player for years, while Ewing just wasn’t. Outside of biased Knick fans, you will not find many people to agree with you.

Just b/c most people agree on something doesn't make them right, no matter how reasonable. We will not agree, but Robinson was empty stats and was never true MVP candidate in my book b/c he did nothing of consequence until a real impact player joined the roster. Ewing was a true MVP, b/c most of those knicks teams would of never been in contention without him.
...and yet another forgotten and underrated aspect of Ewing's accomplishments is that he did this in New York, one of the hardest places to lead a team to victory.

It is funny seeing obtuse logic being posted.

I appreciate the reply and the laugh you gave me.

[Bel]

If Ewing and Pippen had switched places in 1987 nobody could possibly have conceived of ever making this thread.

There are many top players who have worse sins on their resume than 'barely lost to Jordan/Hakeem' with a bad 2nd star and good 3rd/4th best players. And a lot of things had to go wrong with those 3 series for the Knicks to lose. The Charles Smith stop, the Starks g6 shot, Starks g7 nightmare, the Knicks only able to play 6 deep in the finals, probably more that's just off the top of my head.

You guys only care about narrative when it suits a modern or hyped players agenda. Nobody would be talking this way if John Starks had slept any one of the 3 nights before the 94 finals g7. But Ewing doesn't get the excuses more prominent players do for some reason.

Comparing Ewing to Lillard? Jesus. KAT? Get help.

[GrindCityHustle]

Ewing was one of the few players who should have forced his way out aka Kevin Garnett and it would have actually helped his legacy. By 2000 he was super old. Him getting a title would have put him higher on lists.

To give Ewing credit he was one of the most loyal guys and one of the few players who could play under the pressure of New York.

[AussieBuck]

He was right around the Embiid level. Better D, worse O. It's easy to remember him as the lumbering, average jump shooting guy from his last few years but he was a **** stud at his best. 7 All-NBA teams when it was clearly the best position in the league when he played.

[tdot_steel]

Whats the tierlist for 90s Centers? Are Robinson and Olajuwon in the same tier? Where does Ewing rank among those 2?

The tiers are strange since there are levels within each tier, so let's do this with 1/2 tiers in between. This is for the early-mid '90s only.

Tier 1:
Olajuwon, Robinson

Tier 1 1/2:
Shaq (at the time)

Tier 2: Ewing

Tier 2 1/2: Mourning, Mutombo

Tier 3: Smits, Divac, Daugherty

Tier 4: Elden Campbell, Seikaly, Parish, Duckworth

Parish in Tier 4 WTH......you do realize that Parish uis a HOF player. Those players shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath with the Chief

[tdot_steel]

He was right around the Embiid level. Better D, worse O. It's easy to remember him as the lumbering, average jump shooting guy from his last few years but he was a **** stud at his best. 7 All-NBA teams when it was clearly the best position in the league when he played.

Please don't put Embiid into a conversation with Patrick Ewing. Ewing would abuse Embiid.

[tsherkin]

]I'd say peak Robinson is on Olajuwon's level, though Olajuwon had a better career. To be fair, Robinson entered the NBA very late, due to serving in the Navy two years (after four years of college basketball). Ewing is definitely on a tier below these two, but he was still an excellent two way center, with a nice mid range game. Smits was good, but Ewing is much closer to Robinson than Smits.

Olajuwon's postseason play definitely puts him above Robinson, that shouldn't really be a question for a playoff dropper like the Admiral. Robinson was very, very good, but he feasted on weaker defenses and struggled when the pressure was put on.

I would, however, agree that Ewing is closer to Robinson than Smits. That seems an easy one.

[knicksfan974]

This kind of ridiculous threads give RealGM a bad name.

I bet most people here most likely didn't get to see Ewing play in his prime as they were not born or too young, and it is easy to underrate someone you never saw really even play. Ewing was a beast, one of the best centers ever to play basketball.

[Meat]

Whats the tierlist for 90s Centers? Are Robinson and Olajuwon in the same tier? Where does Ewing rank among those 2?

The tiers are strange since there are levels within each tier, so let's do this with 1/2 tiers in between. This is for the early-mid '90s only.

Tier 1:
Olajuwon, Robinson

Tier 1 1/2:
Shaq (at the time)

Tier 2: Ewing

Tier 2 1/2: Mourning, Mutombo

Tier 3: Smits, Divac, Daugherty

Tier 4: Elden Campbell, Seikaly, Parish, Duckworth

Parish in Tier 4 WTH......you do realize that Parish uis a HOF player. Those players shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath with the Chief

bro, he's clearly talking about parish in the 90's

[Ballerhogger]

For his era? Yes he was , defenisve beast anchor to dominate knicks team.

[Ballerhogger]

He was right around the Embiid level. Better D, worse O. It's easy to remember him as the lumbering, average jump shooting guy from his last few years but he was a **** stud at his best. 7 All-NBA teams when it was clearly the best position in the league when he played.

Please don't put Embiid into a conversation with Patrick Ewing. Ewing would abuse Embiid.

make him cry...