Replace Drexler w/ Kobe for Career how many Titles?

[Matt15]

How many titles would Kobe win if he replaces Drexler for his career?

84 Blazers-97 Kobe
85 Blazers-98 Kobe
86 Blazers-99 Kobe
87 Blazers-00 Kobe
88 Blazers-01 Kobe
89 Blazers-02 Kobe
90 Blazers-03 Kobe
91 Blazers-04 Kobe
92 Blazers-05 Kobe
93 Blazers-06 Kobe
94 Blazers-07 Kobe
95 Rockets-08 Kobe
96 Rockets-09 Kobe
97 Rockets-10 Kobe
98 Rockets-11 Kobe

[Jaivl]

Between 0 and 2. Great chance in '95 (not a given as I don't think Drexler!Rockets get to the WCF in that many universes if we roll the dice again), small to decent chances in other years (especially '90 and '91). Don't think Kobe's 2005 season improves Drexler's 1992. 1 is the safe pick I think.

[tsherkin]

Misclicked on 0 by accident. None in the 80s. Kobe was too young and mostly a lot worse than Drexler in his 90s incarnation when he was a teenager and what have you. Seems obvious. Don't really see him defeating Chicago from 91-93.

Blazers/Rockets would have been more interesting in 94. Drexler sagged pretty hard in that series and laid a big egg to close out the series. 05 Kobe was basically at the peak of his scoring ability, so there's a decent chance they'd exit the West and then contend pretty vigorously with the Knicks.

Can't see why he wouldn't win with Hakeem in 95 still, so that's one. Don't see them beating Chicago in 96 or 97. Hakeem laid an egg on O against the 98 Jazz but Kobe would have performed better than Drexler did, I'd think, so there's a chance they come out and give the 98 Bulls hell.

I'll say 2 titles.

[AEnigma]

Wow those are some brutal year selections.

Lean toward him getting 1995 and 1997, and whatever odds of him getting another one probably offset those two not being 100% odds.

[Im Your Father]

Misclicked on 0 by accident. None in the 80s. Kobe was too young and mostly a lot worse than Drexler in his 90s incarnation when he was a teenager and what have you. Seems obvious. Don't really see him defeating Chicago from 91-93.

Blazers/Rockets would have been more interesting in 94. Drexler sagged pretty hard in that series and laid a big egg to close out the series. 05 Kobe was basically at the peak of his scoring ability, so there's a decent chance they'd exit the West and then contend pretty vigorously with the Knicks.

Can't see why he wouldn't win with Hakeem in 95 still, so that's one. Don't see them beating Chicago in 96 or 97. Hakeem laid an egg on O against the 98 Jazz but Kobe would have performed better than Drexler did, I'd think, so there's a chance they come out and give the 98 Bulls hell.

I'll say 2 titles.

Lol, I also accidentally clicked zero, but would vote 2.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Not sure if he ever wins a title to be honest in Clydes shoes. Thats not a knock against him because he was obviously greater than Clyde. He wasn't ready on the 80s Blazers.

I can't see Kobe faring any better than Clyde did vs the Pistons in 90 where Clyde played as good as he did in any of his 7 Finals appearances. Or in 92 vs the GOAT defensive perimeter duo and MJ scoring like a maniac.

Not even sure if he wins with Hakeem because I don't know how he'd have adjusted to unprecedented circumstances for any team that ever won a title.

Hakeem and Clyde had less than 2 months together before the 95 playoffs. Vernon Maxwell went of the rails in Portland once he returned from his suspension and clearly had issues with not just Clyde but also reduced minutes. I do think Vernon and Kobe would've butted heads.

You just don't see HOF duos thar won a title over history have such a short window as teammates to mesh. Even Kobe and Shaq had to endure growing pains and defeats before they got over the hump.

Of course Kobe did win it all with a dominant peak Shaq. But 95 playoffs Hakeem needed slightly more FGA per game on average than any version of peak Shaq to get his points.

1995 is his best shot at a ring, but not a certainty.

[No-more-rings]

Wait people don’t think peak-ish Kobe winning in Drexler’s place in 95 isn’t a given?

[OhayoKD]

Wow those are some brutal year selections.

Lean toward him getting 1995 and 1997, and whatever odds of him getting another one probably offset those two not being 100% odds.

I guess nothing is 100% but replacing clyde with kobe has to come pretty close no? Probably better fit with kobe being a much better three point shooter. Kobe's also a better passer/defender and is better off the ball. Considering they won with clyde, hard to see them not winning with a clean upgrade in kobe. His shooting would be a big advantage in the 90's actually. Could see it be akin to the 01 lakers tbh

[falcolombardi]

Wow those are some brutal year selections.

Lean toward him getting 1995 and 1997, and whatever odds of him getting another one probably offset those two not being 100% odds.

I guess nothing is 100% but replacing clyde with kobe has to come pretty close no? Probably better fit with kobe being a much better three point shooter. Kobe's also a better passer/defender and is better off the ball. Considering they won with clyde, hard to see them not winning with a clean upgrade in kobe. His shooting would be a big advantage in the 90's actually. Could see it be akin to the 01 lakers tbh

Is not about kobe not being better than clyde but about the 95 rockets being a team that had the season been played 10 times probably only win the ring once or two

Going through the gauntlet they went through as a 6th seed is an all time run although for the sake of the comparision i agree that all else being equal, rockets should win with kobe like they did with drexler

Is harder after that with the bulls return but i could see the 97 rockets being a ring winner, that was the last year of great hakeem defense and kobe scoring would have let him focus more on that end whike kobe and barkley (also in his last prime ish year) handled the offense

I think those rockets would have matched up well vs bulls in 97 assuming they get past the jazz

great rebounding with barkley and hakeem to stop rodman and co from the offensive boards (which the bulls relied on a fair bit for offense separation) is key here, utah in 97 kept it close heavily on the back of defensive rebounding and unlike utah this rockets team would have a more resilient scorer than malone in peak kobe who still can operate as a passing hub

And hakeem presence inside would help keep bulls off the paint to a reasonable degree

Just a good matchup imo, in 98 hakeem and barkley fall off but so do stockton in utah or the bulls trio a fair bit

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Wow those are some brutal year selections.

Lean toward him getting 1995 and 1997, and whatever odds of him getting another one probably offset those two not being 100% odds.

I guess nothing is 100% but replacing clyde with kobe has to come pretty close no? Probably better fit with kobe being a much better three point shooter. Kobe's also a better passer/defender and is better off the ball. Considering they won with clyde, hard to see them not winning with a clean upgrade in kobe. His shooting would be a big advantage in the 90's actually. Could see it be akin to the 01 lakers tbh

I'm hypothetically just worried about Kobe outshooting his more efficient HOF C out of a series like he did vs Detroit in the 04 Finals playing iso hero ball and contributing to their downfall. Of course he wasn't facing a team constructed like the 04 Pistons, but it'd still be a concern to me, especially going against the highest winning % of teams a title team ever faced en route to a title.

94-95 Hakeem needed a bit more FG attempts per gane than peak Shaq to be as effective offensively as he was that playoff title run.
.

[OhayoKD]

Wow those are some brutal year selections.

Lean toward him getting 1995 and 1997, and whatever odds of him getting another one probably offset those two not being 100% odds.

I guess nothing is 100% but replacing clyde with kobe has to come pretty close no? Probably better fit with kobe being a much better three point shooter. Kobe's also a better passer/defender and is better off the ball. Considering they won with clyde, hard to see them not winning with a clean upgrade in kobe. His shooting would be a big advantage in the 90's actually. Could see it be akin to the 01 lakers tbh

I'm hypothetically just worried about Kobe outshooting his more efficient HOF C out of a series like he did vs Detroit in the 04 Finals playing iso hero ball and contributing to their downfall. Of course he wasn't facing a team constructed like the 04 Pistons, but it'd still be a concern to me, especially going against the highest winning % of teams a title team ever faced en route to a title.

94-95 Hakeem needed a bit more FG attempts per gane than peak Shaq to be as effective offensively as he was that playoff title run.
.

Hmm. How much of that would you say was caused by off-court dynamics? I guess kobe's case would pose a potential lockeroom fire for any team though, as malone can attest, it may have been less of a story in the 90's

[falcolombardi]

I guess nothing is 100% but replacing clyde with kobe has to come pretty close no? Probably better fit with kobe being a much better three point shooter. Kobe's also a better passer/defender and is better off the ball. Considering they won with clyde, hard to see them not winning with a clean upgrade in kobe. His shooting would be a big advantage in the 90's actually. Could see it be akin to the 01 lakers tbh

I'm hypothetically just worried about Kobe outshooting his more efficient HOF C out of a series like he did vs Detroit in the 04 Finals playing iso hero ball and contributing to their downfall. Of course he wasn't facing a team constructed like the 04 Pistons, but it'd still be a concern to me, especially going against the highest winning % of teams a title team ever faced en route to a title.

94-95 Hakeem needed a bit more FG attempts per gane than peak Shaq to be as effective offensively as he was that playoff title run.
.

Hmm. How much of that would you say was caused by off-court dynamics? I guess kobe's case would pose a potential lockeroom fire for any team though, as malone can attest, it may have been less of a story in the 90's

Karl malone literally raped a minor in the 80's and it took until recent years for it to gain traction, kobe case would have gone under the radar in the america of the 90's

[picko]

Wait people don’t think peak-ish Kobe winning in Drexler’s place in 95 isn’t a given?

The 1994-95 Rockets with Kobe aren't even a certainty to get out of the first round.

Houston beat the Jazz 3-2 and Clyde averaged 25 PPG on 72.1% TS. There is a fair chance you aren't getting that type of performance from Kobe, with it basically guaranteed that you aren't getting that efficiency.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Add Kobe to the Stockton Malone Jazz with Kobe being an addition, not replacing anybody and how many tittles does he win? Hornace, and before that Jeff Malone would be backing up Kobe. Kobe coukd play some small forward.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I guess nothing is 100% but replacing clyde with kobe has to come pretty close no? Probably better fit with kobe being a much better three point shooter. Kobe's also a better passer/defender and is better off the ball. Considering they won with clyde, hard to see them not winning with a clean upgrade in kobe. His shooting would be a big advantage in the 90's actually. Could see it be akin to the 01 lakers tbh

I'm hypothetically just worried about Kobe outshooting his more efficient HOF C out of a series like he did vs Detroit in the 04 Finals playing iso hero ball and contributing to their downfall. Of course he wasn't facing a team constructed like the 04 Pistons, but it'd still be a concern to me, especially going against the highest winning % of teams a title team ever faced en route to a title.

94-95 Hakeem needed a bit more FG attempts per gane than peak Shaq to be as effective offensively as he was that playoff title run.
.

Hmm. How much of that would you say was caused by off-court dynamics? I guess kobe's case would pose a potential lockeroom fire for any team though, as malone can attest, it may have been less of a story in the 90's

The Rockets were dealing with their own locker room fire with Vernon Maxwell that season right before Clyde arrived. He was not welcoming of the trade and his reduced role.

But Clyde was usually the quiet unassuming consummate professional type that just wanted to fit in.

We've seen in Kobes career he's clashed with teammates in the past. He could ride teammates hard he didn't think were playing up to standard. Of course he did pair with Artest to win a title.

But I think Vernon was a next level of hot headedness. I could definitely see him and Vernon getting into a major altercation before the playoffs. He was always someone that would flip at the immediate sign of feeling disrespected. You can even see in interviews 25+ years later today he's still the same nutcase he was during his career.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Wait people don’t think peak-ish Kobe winning in Drexler’s place in 95 isn’t a given?

The 1994-95 Rockets with Kobe aren't even a certainty to get out of the first round.

Houston beat the Jazz 3-2 and Clyde averaged 25 PPG on 72.1% TS. There is a fair chance you aren't getting that type of performance from Kobe, with it basically guaranteed that you aren't getting that efficiency.

I'm not even sure if the 94-95 Rockets replayed that run again, they win the title. They weren't some assured team like Jordan' and Pippens Bulls, Kobe/Shaq Lakers or Duncans Spurs where aside from the odd scare they were frontrunners most of their regular season and runs.

They weren't anything special in the regular season and were on the ropes on the verge of being KOed a lot of that run.

And caught some extremely lucky breaks (Persons missed 3 in game 5 at the buzzer that bounced off the rim that would have eliminated them...Nick Anderson inexplicably missing 4 Fts in a row)

Other than Cassell nobody on the Rockets roster ever played at the level again in the playoffs for the rest of their careers. They just caught lightning in a bottle for a brief stretch in the postseason and played over their heads.

[magicman1978]

Wait people don’t think peak-ish Kobe winning in Drexler’s place in 95 isn’t a given?

The 1994-95 Rockets with Kobe aren't even a certainty to get out of the first round.

Houston beat the Jazz 3-2 and Clyde averaged 25 PPG on 72.1% TS. There is a fair chance you aren't getting that type of performance from Kobe, with it basically guaranteed that you aren't getting that efficiency.

The shortened 3pt line benefited Clyde a lot there - so I wouldn't say it was a guarantee Kobe couldn't match that especially since the Jazz didn't have anyone that would have been able to slow him down.

[tsherkin]

The shortened 3pt line benefited Clyde a lot there - so I wouldn't say it was a guarantee Kobe couldn't match that especially since the Jazz didn't have anyone that would have been able to slow him down.

This is true. 95-97 is 08-10 Kobe... who shot 42%+ from 16-23 feet in 09 and 10. There's a reasonably good chance that he'd be mercilessly punishing everyone from three in those seasons.

[homecourtloss]

Wait people don’t think peak-ish Kobe winning in Drexler’s place in 95 isn’t a given?

The 1994-95 Rockets with Kobe aren't even a certainty to get out of the first round.

Houston beat the Jazz 3-2 and Clyde averaged 25 PPG on 72.1% TS. There is a fair chance you aren't getting that type of performance from Kobe, with it basically guaranteed that you aren't getting that efficiency.

This is true. Kobe was better and greater than Clyde, but those rockets teams really weren’t that good and took some extraordinary circumstances to win those two titles. As falcom Mentioned earlier, you replay some of the seasons 10 times and the Rockets might only win a few times if that. So everything had to go just right for them including the Sonics being upset in 1994 and getting incredibly hot shooting to beat the jazz in 1995, the suns to implode in both 1994 and 1995. I suspect Kobe would’ve been OK especially with a shortened three point line but the margins for those Rockets’ victories were so thin that changing anything around might’ve made them not win.

[tsherkin]

This is true. Kobe was better and greater than Clyde, but those rockets teams really weren’t that good and took some extraordinary circumstances to win those two titles. As falcom Mentioned earlier, you replay some of the seasons 10 times and the Rockets might only win a few times if that. So everything had to go just right for them including the Sonics being upset in 1994 and getting incredibly hot shooting to beat the jazz in 1995, the suns to implode in both 1994 and 1995. I suspect Kobe would’ve been OK especially with a shortened three point line but the margins for those Rockets’ victories were so thin that changing anything around might’ve made them not win.

Yes but, you replace Clyde on those teams with a very much superior scoring weapon and the need for those special circumstances diminishes, is I believe the point. Particularly in seasons where the 3pt line was closer, because Kobe was a thoroughly violent threat from that range in the given years we're discussing. And on heavy volume, no less.