DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

[Tha King]

Claxton has always been a good defender but he's gone up a level this season so far.

2.3bpg with a DFG% differential (<6 ft) of -11.3% (Embiid: +0.5%; Lopez: -10.6%; Gobert: -5.9%). You then have his switchability for a center as one of the better perimeter defenders on the team.

[Mrakar]

Dyson Daniels played one of the best 1 on 1 defenses i've seen last night and Booker still scored 58... half of it on him...

[eyeatoma]

Why is OG leading the poll over Brook Lopez? its preposterous.

The board's highest population fan wise are Raptors fans. What do you expect lol.

[yoyoboy]

OG behind the 16th ranked defense has more votes than Allen (or Mobley who’s not even in the poll) on the #1 defense that’s a full point ahead of the second place team in DRTG. Totally makes sense.

Even Milwaukee is full of good defenders. Brook is great, but he wouldn’t be able to play the role as well as he does if he didn’t have an elite helping big in Giannis, absolute hounds up top in Jrue and Carter, and even solid defenders on the wing like Middleton and Matthews.

Allen and Mobley have to cover for far inferior defenders on the perimeter in Garland, Mitchell, and LeVert, and with Wade being constantly out, the team has no real defensive wings either. I don’t see how it’s not one of them at this point.

[therealbig3]

Nicolas Claxton should be in the conversation for sure.

[Kurtz]

OG behind the 16th ranked defense has more votes than Allen (or Mobley who’s not even in the poll) on the #1 defense that’s a full point ahead of the second place team in DRTG. Totally makes sense.

Even Milwaukee is full of good defenders. Brook is great, but he wouldn’t be able to play the role as well as he does if he didn’t have an elite helping big in Giannis, absolute hounds up top in Jrue and Carter, and even solid defenders on the wing like Middleton and Matthews.

Allen and Mobley have to cover for far inferior defenders on the perimeter in Garland, Mitchell, and LeVert, and with Wade being constantly out, the team has no real defensive wings either. I don’t see how it’s not one of them at this point.

Lopez and Giannis are cannibalizing each other's votes in the poll, and Allen and Mobley (other) may be affecting each other as well. (not to mention that Allen has missed about a quarter of his team's games).

This same phenomenon may be reflected in actual voting.

[MaxZaslofskyJr]

Claxton

[cupcakesnake]

OG behind the 16th ranked defense has more votes than Allen (or Mobley who’s not even in the poll) on the #1 defense that’s a full point ahead of the second place team in DRTG. Totally makes sense.

I'll reset the poll soon probably to get a more updated opinion (probably after christmas). OG got most of those votes early when he was healthy and the Raps looked like they were just waiting for Siakam to return before they went on a run.

To be fair, the Raptors falling apart in OG's absence isn't exactly a huge case against him. The Raps have lost all 4 games since he's been out. They've been a top 10 defense with him on the floor (110 Drtg despite not having a real rim protector in the rotation), and play like the worst defense in the league with him off the floor (118 Drtg).

(To be clear I currently have Brook and Jarrett ahead of OG on my personal ballot.)

Brook and Jarrett Allen both play on teams where the defense remains elite when they're off the floor. We know the DPOY is going to to someone on a top 5ish defense, and if the Raptors don't turn their season around, OG will not be in the running for this award. But I think we go a little too far when assessing individual defense and not giving great defenders on not-great-defensive teams credit. I think a lot about how Shawn Marion was one of the best defenders of his generation (not DPOY level but close imo), but he never made a single all-defense team. His job was always covering up holes and keeping weak defensive personnel out of the gutter. Never got any credit because we're lazy and we want to correlate team defensive success.

Brook and Jarrett on their own don't make top 5 defenses. No one does. Having 2 elite defensive bigs might make a top 5 defense on its own though haha.

My only point is here is that we can't just be like: Cleveland/Milwaukee top 5 defense=Brook or Giannis or Jarrett or Mobley the best defender. The voters will do that, but we can be more nunanced here at realgm if we want. I'm just as interested in the cases of Alex Caruso, OG, Gobert, Jarred Vanderbilt, Claxton as I am in the anchor's of the leagues best defenses.

[buckboy]

Imagine if 10 years ago someone told you Brook Lopez was going to be in heavy consideration for DPOY.

I know I wouldn't have believed it.

Edit: I see that this has been covered already, but it's still fairly unbelievable.

[buckboy]

Hopefully my guy Timelord enters this convo as the year progresses. Sounds like he's making his season debut tomorrow.

It's going to be a rough start with two games against the league's hottest new championship contender.

Pretty damn good call right here.

[tooler]

Hopefully my guy Timelord enters this convo as the year progresses. Sounds like he's making his season debut tomorrow.

It's going to be a rough start with two games against the league's hottest new championship contender.

Pretty damn good call right here.

I tried my best to make a self-deprecating joke, and now I feel bad! Hah!

[bradybunch]

I don't know much about BPM, but isn't Jokic leading the league in defensive BPM? I could be wrong.

[Kurtz]

Vegas now has JJJ in the 2nd spot in DPOY odds. He's a great defender, but imo has missed too many games to be in the convo.

[cupcakesnake]

Vegas now has JJJ in the 2nd spot in DPOY odds. He's a great defender, but imo has missed too many games to be in the convo.

If he stays healthy for the rest of the year (maximum possible is 66 total games played), he could be in the convo. Typically if guys can clear 60-65 games they get decent award consideration.

Gobert won it with 56 in 2018. Kawhi and Tyson Chandler with 64 and 62 games apiece.

[yoyoboy]

OG behind the 16th ranked defense has more votes than Allen (or Mobley who’s not even in the poll) on the #1 defense that’s a full point ahead of the second place team in DRTG. Totally makes sense.

I'll reset the poll soon probably to get a more updated opinion (probably after christmas). OG got most of those votes early when he was healthy and the Raps looked like they were just waiting for Siakam to return before they went on a run.

To be fair, the Raptors falling apart in OG's absence isn't exactly a huge case against him. The Raps have lost all 4 games since he's been out. They've been a top 10 defense with him on the floor (110 Drtg despite not having a real rim protector in the rotation), and play like the worst defense in the league with him off the floor (118 Drtg).

(To be clear I currently have Brook and Jarrett ahead of OG on my personal ballot.)

Brook and Jarrett Allen both play on teams where the defense remains elite when they're off the floor. We know the DPOY is going to to someone on a top 5ish defense, and if the Raptors don't turn their season around, OG will not be in the running for this award. But I think we go a little too far when assessing individual defense and not giving great defenders on not-great-defensive teams credit. I think a lot about how Shawn Marion was one of the best defenders of his generation (not DPOY level but close imo), but he never made a single all-defense team. His job was always covering up holes and keeping weak defensive personnel out of the gutter. Never got any credit because we're lazy and we want to correlate team defensive success.

Brook and Jarrett on their own don't make top 5 defenses. No one does. Having 2 elite defensive bigs might make a top 5 defense on its own though haha.

My only point is here is that we can't just be like: Cleveland/Milwaukee top 5 defense=Brook or Giannis or Jarrett or Mobley the best defender. The voters will do that, but we can be more nunanced here at realgm if we want. I'm just as interested in the cases of Alex Caruso, OG, Gobert, Jarred Vanderbilt, Claxton as I am in the anchor's of the leagues best defenses.

Appreciate the response. I guess my thinking is it's really hard to put too much stock into the on/off especially when you're talking about the Raptors really not playing like much more than a slightly above average defense with OG on the court. I know the lack of rim protection is an issue, but when I look around OG, I see a lot of guys who are historically pretty good defenders across the board, altogether offering a lot of length and versatility. Not to mention Nurse is a very good defensive coach. I don't know if I really buy the idea that over the course of the season they would be close to the worst defense in the league without OG. This to me isn't really a KG on Minny situation where he was bringing crazy defensive impact to the table amidst a terrible roster,

I just think it's hard for wings to bring the same kind of defensive value to the table as rim protectors. While OG is seen as a highly versatile defender because of his ability to guard the different positions 1-on-1, your versatility is capped when you're not providing that extra value of deterring shots at the hoop. Plus, if we were to heavily consider the on-off right now, then we'd be looking at Mobley as a big liability for the Cavs, making the Cavs' DRTG 6.6 points per 100 worse when he's on the floor, which would work in JA's favor in this argument. And then you just look at the Cavs' roster and you really do see a lot of guys with pretty bad defensive reputations playing the lion's share of the minutes, like Garland, LeVert, Mitchell, Love, and Cedi. Mobley and Allen obviously make things easier for each other, but in order to sustain a #1 ranked defense, we basically need both guys playing at DPOY levels just to cover for all the holes elsewhere.

I don't mind OG getting mentioned as an All-Defensive Team guy. I just think he has a pretty weak case when you compare him to the rim protectors in the conversation.

[Papi_swav]

Claxton should be on top

[lobosloboslobos]

OG defends Embiid (3 times) and Harden (once) one-on-one in the 4 final Philly regulation time possessions of a 1 possession game. Outcome? ZERO points for Philly.

[Kurtz]

OG behind the 16th ranked defense has more votes than Allen (or Mobley who’s not even in the poll) on the #1 defense that’s a full point ahead of the second place team in DRTG. Totally makes sense.

I'll reset the poll soon probably to get a more updated opinion (probably after christmas). OG got most of those votes early when he was healthy and the Raps looked like they were just waiting for Siakam to return before they went on a run.

To be fair, the Raptors falling apart in OG's absence isn't exactly a huge case against him. The Raps have lost all 4 games since he's been out. They've been a top 10 defense with him on the floor (110 Drtg despite not having a real rim protector in the rotation), and play like the worst defense in the league with him off the floor (118 Drtg).

(To be clear I currently have Brook and Jarrett ahead of OG on my personal ballot.)

Brook and Jarrett Allen both play on teams where the defense remains elite when they're off the floor. We know the DPOY is going to to someone on a top 5ish defense, and if the Raptors don't turn their season around, OG will not be in the running for this award. But I think we go a little too far when assessing individual defense and not giving great defenders on not-great-defensive teams credit. I think a lot about how Shawn Marion was one of the best defenders of his generation (not DPOY level but close imo), but he never made a single all-defense team. His job was always covering up holes and keeping weak defensive personnel out of the gutter. Never got any credit because we're lazy and we want to correlate team defensive success.

Brook and Jarrett on their own don't make top 5 defenses. No one does. Having 2 elite defensive bigs might make a top 5 defense on its own though haha.

My only point is here is that we can't just be like: Cleveland/Milwaukee top 5 defense=Brook or Giannis or Jarrett or Mobley the best defender. The voters will do that, but we can be more nunanced here at realgm if we want. I'm just as interested in the cases of Alex Caruso, OG, Gobert, Jarred Vanderbilt, Claxton as I am in the anchor's of the leagues best defenses.

Appreciate the response. I guess my thinking is it's really hard to put too much stock into the on/off especially when you're talking about the Raptors really not playing like much more than a slightly above average defense with OG on the court. I know the lack of rim protection is an issue, but when I look around OG, I see a lot of guys who are historically pretty good defenders across the board, altogether offering a lot of length and versatility. Not to mention Nurse is a very good defensive coach. I don't know if I really buy the idea that over the course of the season they would be close to the worst defense in the league without OG. This to me isn't really a KG on Minny situation where he was bringing crazy defensive impact to the table amidst a terrible roster,

I just think it's hard for wings to bring the same kind of defensive value to the table as rim protectors. While OG is seen as a highly versatile defender because of his ability to guard the different positions 1-on-1, your versatility is capped when you're not providing that extra value of deterring shots at the hoop. Plus, if we were to heavily consider the on-off right now, then we'd be looking at Mobley as a big liability for the Cavs, making the Cavs' DRTG 6.6 points per 100 worse when he's on the floor, which would work in JA's favor in this argument. And then you just look at the Cavs' roster and you really do see a lot of guys with pretty bad defensive reputations playing the lion's share of the minutes, like Garland, LeVert, Mitchell, Love, and Cedi. Mobley and Allen obviously make things easier for each other, but in order to sustain a #1 ranked defense, we basically need both guys playing at DPOY levels just to cover for all the holes elsewhere.

I don't mind OG getting mentioned as an All-Defensive Team guy. I just think he has a pretty weak case when you compare him to the rim protectors in the conversation.

Traditionally, it's undeniable that the DPOY voting has favoured the C position due to its outsized influence on the game. However, in recent years, as offenses have become more and more perimeter oriented, I think the importance of the dominant post defender has diminished in comparison to a versatile defender that can guard and disrupt the perimeter and is able to defend anyone on a switch, while also being able to hold their own and help out down low when the occasion calls for it.

I'm looking at the Pelicans-Bucks box score tonight, and I see that JV put up 38/17 while hitting 7 threes on Brook. That doesn't surprise me, given that Brook wears that shock collar that goes off anytime he's more than 10 feet from his basket on defense. Imo that type of defender doesn't scream DPOY in the modern game - give me a more versatile who defends all over the floor, like an OG, Draymond, Simmons, Herb Jones/Mobley (eventually), etc.

[BAMAFREAK]

Vegas now has JJJ in the 2nd spot in DPOY odds. He's a great defender, but imo has missed too many games to be in the convo.

He probably won’t win it but he may the best defensive player in the league. Mobile, active, long, and great timing. He just eats guys up

[Bmaasse]

I'll reset the poll soon probably to get a more updated opinion (probably after christmas). OG got most of those votes early when he was healthy and the Raps looked like they were just waiting for Siakam to return before they went on a run.

To be fair, the Raptors falling apart in OG's absence isn't exactly a huge case against him. The Raps have lost all 4 games since he's been out. They've been a top 10 defense with him on the floor (110 Drtg despite not having a real rim protector in the rotation), and play like the worst defense in the league with him off the floor (118 Drtg).

(To be clear I currently have Brook and Jarrett ahead of OG on my personal ballot.)

Brook and Jarrett Allen both play on teams where the defense remains elite when they're off the floor. We know the DPOY is going to to someone on a top 5ish defense, and if the Raptors don't turn their season around, OG will not be in the running for this award. But I think we go a little too far when assessing individual defense and not giving great defenders on not-great-defensive teams credit. I think a lot about how Shawn Marion was one of the best defenders of his generation (not DPOY level but close imo), but he never made a single all-defense team. His job was always covering up holes and keeping weak defensive personnel out of the gutter. Never got any credit because we're lazy and we want to correlate team defensive success.

Brook and Jarrett on their own don't make top 5 defenses. No one does. Having 2 elite defensive bigs might make a top 5 defense on its own though haha.

My only point is here is that we can't just be like: Cleveland/Milwaukee top 5 defense=Brook or Giannis or Jarrett or Mobley the best defender. The voters will do that, but we can be more nunanced here at realgm if we want. I'm just as interested in the cases of Alex Caruso, OG, Gobert, Jarred Vanderbilt, Claxton as I am in the anchor's of the leagues best defenses.

Appreciate the response. I guess my thinking is it's really hard to put too much stock into the on/off especially when you're talking about the Raptors really not playing like much more than a slightly above average defense with OG on the court. I know the lack of rim protection is an issue, but when I look around OG, I see a lot of guys who are historically pretty good defenders across the board, altogether offering a lot of length and versatility. Not to mention Nurse is a very good defensive coach. I don't know if I really buy the idea that over the course of the season they would be close to the worst defense in the league without OG. This to me isn't really a KG on Minny situation where he was bringing crazy defensive impact to the table amidst a terrible roster,

I just think it's hard for wings to bring the same kind of defensive value to the table as rim protectors. While OG is seen as a highly versatile defender because of his ability to guard the different positions 1-on-1, your versatility is capped when you're not providing that extra value of deterring shots at the hoop. Plus, if we were to heavily consider the on-off right now, then we'd be looking at Mobley as a big liability for the Cavs, making the Cavs' DRTG 6.6 points per 100 worse when he's on the floor, which would work in JA's favor in this argument. And then you just look at the Cavs' roster and you really do see a lot of guys with pretty bad defensive reputations playing the lion's share of the minutes, like Garland, LeVert, Mitchell, Love, and Cedi. Mobley and Allen obviously make things easier for each other, but in order to sustain a #1 ranked defense, we basically need both guys playing at DPOY levels just to cover for all the holes elsewhere.

I don't mind OG getting mentioned as an All-Defensive Team guy. I just think he has a pretty weak case when you compare him to the rim protectors in the conversation.

Traditionally, it's undeniable that the DPOY voting has favoured the C position due to its outsized influence on the game. However, in recent years, as offenses have become more and more perimeter oriented, I think the importance of the dominant post defender has diminished in comparison to a versatile defender that can guard and disrupt the perimeter and is able to defend anyone on a switch, while also being able to hold their own and help out down low when the occasion calls for it.

I'm looking at the Pelicans-Bucks box score tonight, and I see that JV put up 38/17 while hitting 7 threes on Brook. That doesn't surprise me, given that Brook wears that shock collar that goes off anytime he's more than 10 feet from his basket on defense. Imo that type of defender doesn't scream DPOY in the modern game - give me a more versatile who defends all over the floor, like an OG, Draymond, Simmons, Herb Jones/Mobley (eventually), etc.

They key Stat in that box score was Zion only scoring 18 points. Brook could have played Jonas tighter, but that wasn't the game plan because New Orleans isn't going to win many games relying on JV to jack 3s. NO had no chance scoring anything in the paint and that was all Brook.