Can Jokic finish top 10 all time without a championship?

[Chuck Everett]

Unfortunately for Jokic, team sports and all, if you never play in the Finals, no one will call you a top-10 player in history, your regular season numbers be damned.

The fans have simply devalued the regular season too much for it to matter.

[Goose egg]

Duncan also had the goat coach for almost every season. How many titles does Jokic and young pop win if they’re together the last 6 years

[cam24thomas]

If a ringless superstar wins a championship but doesn't win Finals MVP, does the championship still elevate their legacy?

[JayMKE]

I don't think he's that kind of player and winning is important, stats don't make the GOAT.

[brutalitops]

What? Ducan and Bird are even top 5, not just top 10.

No they are not

See they didn't win the DPOY trophy, which is a bigger indicator of your ability then a championship, since it focus' on individual ability, rather then the other 6/7 guys on your team

Thus, not having a DPOY trophy is a bigger indicator of being a top 10 player then a ring

/Greenfont

i mean tim duncan was all defensive first team like 8 times and second team 7 times. Thats by far the most total selections, while also playing during the Kevin Garnett Era, (who has the record for most first team selections with 9)

Not good enough, Elite defender, didnt win it all one year so he's disqualified, Dont wanna hear about how he "shoulda woulda", he never even finished second!

*Joking here, Duncan is one of the greatest defensive big men you'll ever see and was absolutely the corner-stone of everything the spurs did on defence

[brutalitops]

If a ringless superstar wins a championship but doesn't win Finals MVP, does the championship still elevate their legacy?

Ray Allen
Kevin Garnett
Anthony Davis
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Scottie Pippen
Oscar Robertson
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Clive Drexler

bro think for a second

[cam24thomas]

If a ringless superstar wins a championship but doesn't win Finals MVP, does the championship still elevate their legacy?

Ray Allen
Kevin Garnett
Anthony Davis
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Scottie Pippen
Oscar Robertson
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Clive Drexler

bro think for a second

So winning a Finals MVP elevates your legacy but winning a ring without winning Finals MVP doesn't elevate your legacy.
Drexler's legacy didn't improve after he won a championship with Houston, because Olajuwon was the big star.
KG didn't become greater after winning a championship, because his best years were with Minnesota.
Anthony Davis, same thing.
The only player who seemed to benefit from winning championships without Finals MVPs, was Pippen, but only because he won SIX of them.
Whereas David Robinson won TWO championships, but are we even sure he's better than Karl Malone? Doesn't seem like it.

[slick_watts]

of course he can be top 10 all time without a championship.

[PennSports]

the fact that 25% of people voted yes just shows the ridiculous bias towards him

[-Luke-]

It's incredibly tough to get in the top 10 even if you win a ring or two. Without a ring it almost seems impossible to me. If he retires without a ring, he should have a good chance to be the best ringless player of all time (ahead of Barkley, Malone,...).

But I hope he wins at least one. There isn't a single (ringless) player, besides maybe Dame, I would be more happy for.

[Myth]

Two questions, and if the answer to both is yes, then I think so:
1. Does he win 2 more MVPs?
2. Are his two best teammates injured again for the playoffs?

#2 is the biggest thing that would prevent him from winning a ring. No NBA player in history would win it all if you took their 2nd and 3rd best player off the team.

If they're healthy, and he can't get at least a ring out of it, it would be a big disappointment and IMO regardless of 4 MVPs or not, he wouldn't end top 10.

So unlike all the other top 10 players of all time, you'd expect Jokic to be the only one to win a ring without an all-star teammate.

I get what you're saying, though. A completely healthy Nuggets team can definitely win a title.

Many have Hakeem as one of the greatest 2 way players of all time, a 2 time FMVP, a title without an all-star teammate and still have him towards the back of the top 10.

[old skool]

I think the thing not being discussed is the impact of watching Jokic lose year after year. It's not just the lack of a ring, but also seeing a player get beat again and again and again. Perpetual losses, continually falling short, a career of disappointment would shape the collective opinion of a player and would cause many to question a player's overall worthiness for top 10.

I don't think people would automatically put a perennial lower in the top 10, and that is how Jokic would be viewed if he never ends a season with a victory.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[CharityStripe34]

That MPJ contract is looking more and more brutal. It would be nice to see if Denver can put a solid team around him and pair him up with a fringe All-Star type of player (or two).

[Jadoogar]

I mean he might be objectively one of the 10 most talented basketball players ever but he's never going to be top 10 in anyone's personal opinion without a title.

I do think he'll win a title eventually in his career, but probably not on the Nuggets. There isn't much indication from this franchise that they're going to surround Jokic with a team that's good enough to feasibly compete for a title any time soon.

It's unfair to say the franchise isn't trying to surround him with enough talent
When healthy, that starting 5 is among the best in the league. It's not really the front office's fault that Murray had a freak injury. MPJ is injury prone but they selected him with the 14th pick and he's already outperformed that selection. They traded for Gordon and KCP, signed maybe the best value contract this summer in Bruce Brown and drafted Bones with a late first. This team just needs health and time to gel.

Jokic is also kind of a hard player to build around. His defense is ok but in a league where drop bigs aren't as valuable (especially in the playoffs, it's hard enough to defend against Curry or Morant), the team is built around outscoring the opponent and it's hard to do that when you're missing your best perimeter creator and 3rd leading scorer.

[66WinCavs]

I would say, a three-peat MVP and and a few hard fought Finals appearances could get him in the top 20. Top 10 without ever getting a ring is hard to imagine.

[bradybunch]

When I said all-star teammate, I didn't necessarily mean the year a title was won.

I meant an all-star teammate in general. One player that at least has played at an all-star level and is still in his prime.

A former all-star can still be in his prime, but he may not make it every year due to various reasons.

[bradybunch]

Two questions, and if the answer to both is yes, then I think so:
1. Does he win 2 more MVPs?
2. Are his two best teammates injured again for the playoffs?

#2 is the biggest thing that would prevent him from winning a ring. No NBA player in history would win it all if you took their 2nd and 3rd best player off the team.

If they're healthy, and he can't get at least a ring out of it, it would be a big disappointment and IMO regardless of 4 MVPs or not, he wouldn't end top 10.

So unlike all the other top 10 players of all time, you'd expect Jokic to be the only one to win a ring without an all-star teammate.

I get what you're saying, though. A completely healthy Nuggets team can definitely win a title.

Many have Hakeem as one of the greatest 2 way players of all time, a 2 time FMVP, a title without an all-star teammate and still have him towards the back of the top 10.

Clyde was previously an all-star. (But wasn't there for both titles)

Anyhow, I think Hakeem winning a title then was less difficult than Jokic winning one now. Hakeem's titles are still two of the greatest ever, though. And Hakeem had very solid help, but I agree it wasn't otherworldly.

[bstein14]

Look at how high people have KD, who has a couple of fake championships with GS.... most people currently have KD in the 12-14 range and I think Jokic could clearly finish ahead of KD even without a championship. That said, to crack into that top 10 you have to jump ahead quite a bit more.... it really feels like he could finish about equal with Olajuwan without a championship if he has 4 MVPs and a long career but I am not sure that he can jump ahead of guys like Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, etc....

So I'd say no, but I think he could be in the 12-14 range for sure.

[Myth]

So unlike all the other top 10 players of all time, you'd expect Jokic to be the only one to win a ring without an all-star teammate.

I get what you're saying, though. A completely healthy Nuggets team can definitely win a title.

Many have Hakeem as one of the greatest 2 way players of all time, a 2 time FMVP, a title without an all-star teammate and still have him towards the back of the top 10.

Clyde was previously an all-star. (But wasn't there for both titles)

Anyhow, I think Hakeem winning a title then was less difficult than Jokic winning one now. Hakeem's titles are still two of the greatest ever, though. And Hakeem had very solid help, but I agree it wasn't otherworldly.

That 1994 team was severely lacking outside of Hakeem as far as championship teams go. If you take the star off every championship team of the last 40 years, that team is clearly the worst IMO. And yet, Hakeem is barely in the top 10 according to most. I think it truly would take a championship minimum to convince people Jokic belongs in the top 10. Otherwise, I think he gets the Malone treatment, of almost never being considered for the top 10 despite having a super accomplished career. Keep in mind, Malone is #3 all time in points behind only Kareem and LeBron, has 2 MVPs, 2 trips to the Finals, and finished top 5 in MVP voting 9 times and 14 straight times in the top 10.

[NZB2323]

Two questions, and if the answer to both is yes, then I think so:
1. Does he win 2 more MVPs?
2. Are his two best teammates injured again for the playoffs?

#2 is the biggest thing that would prevent him from winning a ring. No NBA player in history would win it all if you took their 2nd and 3rd best player off the team.

If they're healthy, and he can't get at least a ring out of it, it would be a big disappointment and IMO regardless of 4 MVPs or not, he wouldn't end top 10.

So unlike all the other top 10 players of all time, you'd expect Jokic to be the only one to win a ring without an all-star teammate.

I get what you're saying, though. A completely healthy Nuggets team can definitely win a title.

Who was the all-star that Hakeem had in 1994?

Also Jordan didn’t have a teammate accompany him to the all-star game in 91 or 98, and Duncan didn’t have a teammate accompany him to the all-star game in 2003.

And Murray may not have made an all-star team but he sure played like one in the 2020 playoffs.

You just can’t put a player without a ring over Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Giannis, or Curry.

So maybe Jokic could be 14th all time without a ring.