Which PG are you taking with a better skill set

[mdonnelly1989]

Todays ERA

Magic with Ray Allen shooting

Stephen Curry with Gary Payton Defense

Chris Paul with Magic Johnson length

John Stockton with Russell Westbrook Athletic Ability

Isiah Thomas with Reggie Miller shooting.

Gary Payton with Klay Thompson shooting.

Jason Kidd with Derrick Rose driving threat

Jerry West and Oscar Robertson combined.

[Dutchball97]

Oscar and West combined would be the perfect guard. 6'5, elite playmaker, elite defender and the ability to score from anywhere on the floor efficiently.

Although I must admit a 6'9 Chris Paul also sounds pretty interesting.

[penbeast0]

Dutchball pretty much nails it. Assuming West is as much better than the other PGs he competes against in shooting 3's as he was in shooting long range 2's in his day, he's up there with Dame and just behind Curry in that regard. I am making the assumption that a 6'9 Chris Paul wouldn't be as quick or as able to change direction on a dime because that is much more difficult to do at Magic's size. If you tell me he magically loses none of the quickness and manueverability while adding extra speed for the longer legs, he would be my choice; I just think it's a lot less realistic than assuming West would be somewhere between Dame and Curry in 3 point shooting skill.

[henshao]

Many consider Magic already the greatest point guard of all time, give him deadly range from the get go and it's a wrap for me

[parsnips33]

Not sure he'd be the best, but uber-athletic Stockton would be interesting

[DraymondGold]

Cool question! Thoughtful player combos are always fun thought experiments

It's definitely not a wrap for me if Magic's shooting improved. Magic was good shooter already -- certainly not Ray Allen level, but a good shooter nonetheless. To me, Magic's greatest weaknesses were his defense and his late-career health/early retirement. Most people have him around neutral on defense during his peak -- maybe small positive if you're higher on him. I'm not sure Magic with better shooting improves as much as a few of the other combos (or, for example, if you boosted Magic with Jason Kidd's defense).

Magic obviously stays the GOAT point guard and rises in the GOAT lists if you give him Ray-Allen shooting shooting, but if I could only have one combo, I'd probably want another.

To me, Curry with Gary Payton's defense is clearly the better combo over Magic. I personally have Curry as slightly better on both ends during his 1-2 year peak than Magic when healthy, though Magic likely sustained his top level offense longer and had better health. Giving Curry near-GOAT level positional defense definitely makes him rise more.... the defensive gap would be bigger than the offensive gap, even if you did have Magic over Curry offensively. However, this doesn't solve Curry's health issue...

Chris Paul with Magic's length also seems appealing (assuming Paul also gains Magic's height and not just Magic's arms ). I do see Paul getting better defensively with more height. Height would also give him greater resilience in his midrange scoring and the ability to pass over the top of defenders. I'd still be worried about his health though.

John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, and Jason Kidd are all slightly less appealing to me. The new Stockton would have a bigger offensive gap compared to the other players and wouldn't make up enough ground defensively. Thomas wouldn't be better than the Curry combo offensively or defensively, and the Payton-Klay combo also wouldn't be better than the Curry combo.

The last one is the only other challenger that I think could potentially beat the first three. However, unlike the previous ones, this is a full player combination... this new "Oscar West" player gets all the best traits of both players; it's not just like adding West's defense to Robertson's offense. Jerry's defense is a clear boost on Oscar's value, giving him ~Top 10 defensive guard ability all time. West also gives Robertson Strong MVP to All-time level shooting, and one of the most more resilient jumpshots of all time. The team-building also becomes easier around this player. You can have them run the offense on ball with Oscar's ~Chris Paul level passing (with better scoring / defense than Paul), or you can have them move off ball with West's combo guard ability. All this, and you finally get a player who doesn't have the health concerns of Paul/Curry/late-career Magic, since Oscar improves on West's health.

I'm taking Oscar West or Curry Payton, probably in that order.

[OhayoKD]

Cool question! Thoughtful player combos are always fun thought experiments

It's definitely not a wrap for me if Magic's shooting improved. Magic was good shooter already -- certainly not Ray Allen level, but a good shooter nonetheless. To me, Magic's greatest weaknesses were his defense and his late-career health/early retirement. Most people have him around neutral on defense during his peak -- maybe small positive if you're higher on him. I'm not sure Magic with better shooting improves as much as a few of the other combos (or, for example, if you boosted Magic with Jason Kidd's defense).

Magic obviously stays the GOAT point guard and rises in the GOAT lists if you give him Ray-Allen shooting shooting, but if I could only have one combo, I'd probably want another.

To me, Curry with Gary Payton's defense is clearly the better combo over Magic. I personally have Curry as slightly better on both ends during his 1-2 year peak than Magic when healthy, though Magic likely sustained his top level offense longer and had better health. Giving Curry near-GOAT level positional defense definitely makes him rise more....the defensive gap would be bigger than the offensive gap, even if you did have Magic over Curry offensively. However, this doesn't solve Curry's health issue...

"Near-Goat" level guards rarely have significant influence on team defense tho. The position just isn't very valuable. If you see ray allen as a top 5 shooter ever in the modern league, I think that has bigger influence on how teams have to play you than making your pg handle certain matchups better. Off course maybe the efficacy dips when the volume scales that much.

[DraymondGold]

Cool question! Thoughtful player combos are always fun thought experiments

It's definitely not a wrap for me if Magic's shooting improved. Magic was good shooter already -- certainly not Ray Allen level, but a good shooter nonetheless. To me, Magic's greatest weaknesses were his defense and his late-career health/early retirement. Most people have him around neutral on defense during his peak -- maybe small positive if you're higher on him. I'm not sure Magic with better shooting improves as much as a few of the other combos (or, for example, if you boosted Magic with Jason Kidd's defense).

Magic obviously stays the GOAT point guard and rises in the GOAT lists if you give him Ray-Allen shooting shooting, but if I could only have one combo, I'd probably want another.

To me, Curry with Gary Payton's defense is clearly the better combo over Magic. I personally have Curry as slightly better on both ends during his 1-2 year peak than Magic when healthy, though Magic likely sustained his top level offense longer and had better health. Giving Curry near-GOAT level positional defense definitely makes him rise more....the defensive gap would be bigger than the offensive gap, even if you did have Magic over Curry offensively. However, this doesn't solve Curry's health issue...

"Near-Goat" level guards rarely have significant influence on team defense tho. The position just isn't very valuable. If you see ray allen as a top 5 shooter ever in the modern league, I think that has bigger influence on how teams have to play you than making your pg handle certain matchups better. Off course maybe the efficacy dips when the volume scales that much.

Oh absolutely, guard defense isn't as valuable as valuable as wing defense which isn't as valuable as big man defense. Apologies, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise! But I also don't think it's worth nothing. It's still a helpful part of a good defense.

Let me give some ballpark numbers just to help explain my thinking:

To me, Payton is probably worth a little over +1 on defense, Curry's a little over neutral, and Magic's around neutral (Magic's lack of lateral mobility is a clear negative for me in this era, as is his lack of rim protection at his size, while his defensive rebounding, intelligence/positioning, and timing for steals are positives). So in my evaluation, given Magic doesn't have an offensive advantage to me, this gives peak Curry a ballpark a net value of +6.5 (with better scalability, worse health) and peak Magic a ballpark net value of around +6.25. If we add ~ +1ish for Payton's defense, Curry would end up with around +7.5. So the question then becomes: does giving Magic a shooting bonus increase his offense from +6.25 to +7.5.

If the only thing we're changing is Magic's shooting accuracy, I'm personally not convinced. Is it possible? Absolutely -- look, there's a lot of uncertainty with any of these thought experiments. But if we're just changing Magic's accuracy -- without giving Magic a major increase in scoring volume or giving him Ray Allen's ability to move off ball to get those shots, etc. -- then I'm just a touch more hesitant. But that's just me!

[70sFan]

Curry with Payton defense would be like a smaller, better shooting Jordan (not in terms of style, but results). It is amazing... but I don't think it's really something to rave about in comparison to Magic adding GOAT-level shooting or making Chris Paul 6'8.

Also, it became quite strange to me that Curry, from being very underrated defensively (even by me), became overrated defender by a significant margin. I mean, he's solid and when he has good teammates and system to hide him, he could be even a solid contributor, but I don't understand when he became clearly better than Magic. I know that Magic couldn't protect the paint, but neither can Curry. I know that Magic wasn't quick laterally, but neither is Curry. Magic wouldn't defend guards these days, he'd probably defend corner shooters or stretch bigs. You don't need a lot of quickness for that.

[OhayoKD]

rsonally not convinced. Is it possible? Absolutely -- look, there's a lot of uncertainty with any of these thought experiments. But if we're just changing Magic's accuracy -- without giving Magic a major increase in scoring volume or giving him Ray Allen's ability to move off ball to get those shots, etc. -- then I'm just a touch more hesitant. But that's just me!

So you're assuming he gets ray's ability to shoot, but defenses don't fundementally shift how they defend him because he isn't moving off the ball?

[mysticOscar]

So many good choices. I'm picking Stockton with Russell Westbrooks athleticsm because Stockton skillset was already quite complete for pg in todays era was was very crafty and high iq.

If you give him Westbrooks speed and jumping ability, just will be amazing to see how everything comes together for him.

[DraymondGold]

Curry with Payton defense would be like a smaller, better shooting Jordan (not in terms of style, but results). It is amazing... but I don't think it's really something to rave about in comparison to Magic adding GOAT-level shooting or making Chris Paul 6'8.

Also, it became quite strange to me that Curry, from being very underrated defensively (even by me), became overrated defender by a significant margin. I mean, he's solid and when he has good teammates and system to hide him, he could be even a solid contributor, but I don't understand when he became clearly better than Magic. I know that Magic couldn't protect the paint, but neither can Curry. I know that Magic wasn't quick laterally, but neither is Curry. Magic wouldn't defend guards these days, he'd probably defend corner shooters or stretch bigs. You don't need a lot of quickness for that.

If the latter part is directed at me, me saying that "on defense, Curry's a little over neutral" is somehow misjudging Curry as an "overrated defender by a significant margin."... Really? Saying Curry's slightly over neutral is a massive overrating?

Curry's not great laterally, but to me he's quicker laterally than Magic. Neither are ideal as point of attack defenders and both are better suited elsewhere, but we do live in an era where deep playoff runs almost always require beating a team that picks on the slowest lateral defender constantly in pick and roll or isolation. To me, Curry's stronger there than Magic in the film I've seen of them both.

This isn't saying Magic doesn't do anything defensively better than Curry (again I like his defensive rebounding and his IQ), this isn't me saying Curry's in another world defensively, this is me just saying I'm slightly more comfortable with Curry on a modern defense than Magic. Not sure how this is a massive overrating of Curry

So you're assuming he gets ray's ability to shoot, but defenses don't fundementally shift how they defend him because he isn't moving off the ball?

Well now you're just flat-out putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, mon ami.

Yes, the defense changes how they defend Magic if he's a better shooter. No, that change alone does not necessarily guarantee it will be more valuable than Curry with significantly better defense, at least without further evidence. And yes, just adding Skill A is not as valuable as adding Skill A and Skill B...

This is fairly straightforward reasoning here... If Magic + Skill A < Curry + Skill B, then maybe Magic + Skill A + Skill C > Curry + Skill B.

Ray All was never an on-ball shooter. His greatest skill was catch-and-shoot shooting. Magic, similarly, was never a guy to shoot incredibly quickly off the dribble or shoot from incredible range at high volume. Where Magic forced the defense to make impossible decisions was in his near-unrivaled ability in transition, and in his combination of size and passing in the half court. For example, in the half court, he would use his size as a mismatch to post up defenders... they can't just let him post up alone, or he'll score on good efficiency, so they double him... but doubling Magic Johnson was perhaps the worst thing you could do, as it made it even easier for him to pick you apart with his passing.

How does improved shooting accuracy (with no other changes) play into this kind of game? Magic would shoot a jump shot if left open, but he was never the kind of guy to shoot from 3 after the slightest possible opening after an on-ball screen or off-ball screen. So this raises the question: with a better jumpshot, does Magic change his shooting or scoring habits, and (assuming so), in what way do these change? Which is why I said in my post that I'd need a sense of how much Magic's scoring volume increased. Would he start shooting more aggressively at higher volume on-ball? Would he gain some of Ray Allen's off-ball ability? Or would he continue prioritizing his playmaking volume, and simply make the shots that he already took at a higher efficiency? If it's the former, then this would improve his value more (as I said), and make it more likely that he would overcome the Curry-Payton combo. If it's the latter, it would indeed make it even more difficult for the defense to guard him, but wouldn't be a full game-breaking as the former, and thus be less likely to beat the other game-breaking combos.

If you'd like to make a more detailed argument for Magic, you're welcome to! But just saying the defense defends him differently and pretending like I wouldn't agree with that isn't really a fair start...

[OhayoKD]

Curry with Payton defense would be like a smaller, better shooting Jordan (not in terms of style, but results). It is amazing... but I don't think it's really something to rave about in comparison to Magic adding GOAT-level shooting or making Chris Paul 6'8.

Also, it became quite strange to me that Curry, from being very underrated defensively (even by me), became overrated defender by a significant margin. I mean, he's solid and when he has good teammates and system to hide him, he could be even a solid contributor, but I don't understand when he became clearly better than Magic. I know that Magic couldn't protect the paint, but neither can Curry. I know that Magic wasn't quick laterally, but neither is Curry. Magic wouldn't defend guards these days, he'd probably defend corner shooters or stretch bigs. You don't need a lot of quickness for that.

If the latter part is directed at me, me saying that "on defense, Curry's a little over neutral" is somehow misjudging Curry as an "overrated defender by a significant margin."... Really? Saying Curry's slightly over neutral is a massive overrating?

Curry's not great laterally, but to me he's quicker laterally than Magic. Neither are ideal as point of attack defenders and both are better suited elsewhere, but we do live in an era where deep playoff runs almost always require beating a team that picks on the slowest lateral defender constantly in pick and roll or isolation. To me, Curry's stronger there than Magic in the film I've seen of them both.

This isn't saying Magic doesn't do anything defensively better than Curry, this isn't me saying Curry's in another world defensively, this is me just saying I'm slightly more comfortable with Curry on a modern defense than Magic. Not sure how this is a "massive overrating" of Curry

So you're assuming he gets ray's ability to shoot, but defenses don't fundementally shift how they defend him because he isn't moving off the ball?

Well now you're just flat-out putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, mon ami.

You didn't explicitly address that in your original comment(and it was a central point), so I asked for clarification. Since you specifically distinguished between "moving off-ball" vs "being an accurate attacker" and the comment you responded to mentioned "changing how defenses react", I think my extrapolation was fair tho perhaps if I said "move off ball enough" you wouldn't have read it as an attack.


Regardless you elaborate well enough, and I don't have a strong opinion on the subject. Sorry if i came off as hostile, but I promise I'm harmless

[DraymondGold]

Curry with Payton defense would be like a smaller, better shooting Jordan (not in terms of style, but results). It is amazing... but I don't think it's really something to rave about in comparison to Magic adding GOAT-level shooting or making Chris Paul 6'8.

Also, it became quite strange to me that Curry, from being very underrated defensively (even by me), became overrated defender by a significant margin. I mean, he's solid and when he has good teammates and system to hide him, he could be even a solid contributor, but I don't understand when he became clearly better than Magic. I know that Magic couldn't protect the paint, but neither can Curry. I know that Magic wasn't quick laterally, but neither is Curry. Magic wouldn't defend guards these days, he'd probably defend corner shooters or stretch bigs. You don't need a lot of quickness for that.

If the latter part is directed at me, me saying that "on defense, Curry's a little over neutral" is somehow misjudging Curry as an "overrated defender by a significant margin."... Really? Saying Curry's slightly over neutral is a massive overrating?

Curry's not great laterally, but to me he's quicker laterally than Magic. Neither are ideal as point of attack defenders and both are better suited elsewhere, but we do live in an era where deep playoff runs almost always require beating a team that picks on the slowest lateral defender constantly in pick and roll or isolation. To me, Curry's stronger there than Magic in the film I've seen of them both.

This isn't saying Magic doesn't do anything defensively better than Curry, this isn't me saying Curry's in another world defensively, this is me just saying I'm slightly more comfortable with Curry on a modern defense than Magic. Not sure how this is a "massive overrating" of Curry

So you're assuming he gets ray's ability to shoot, but defenses don't fundementally shift how they defend him because he isn't moving off the ball?

Well now you're just flat-out putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, mon ami.

You didn't explicitly address that in your original comment(and it was a central point), so I asked for clarification. Since you specifically distinguished between "moving off-ball" vs "being an accurate attacker" and the comment you responded to mentioned "changing how defenses react", I think my extrapolation was fair tho perhaps if I said "move off ball enough" you wouldn't have read it as an attack.


Regardless you elaborate well enough, and I don't have a strong opinion on the subject. Sorry if i came off as hostile, but I promise I'm harmless

Sorry for misinterpreting! The 'enough' bit would have definitely changed how I read it. My b

S'all good though. Since it sounds like y'all are slightly higher on the Magic-Allen combo then I am, would you take him over the West-Oscar combo too?

[OhayoKD]

If the latter part is directed at me, me saying that "on defense, Curry's a little over neutral" is somehow misjudging Curry as an "overrated defender by a significant margin."... Really? Saying Curry's slightly over neutral is a massive overrating?

Curry's not great laterally, but to me he's quicker laterally than Magic. Neither are ideal as point of attack defenders and both are better suited elsewhere, but we do live in an era where deep playoff runs almost always require beating a team that picks on the slowest lateral defender constantly in pick and roll or isolation. To me, Curry's stronger there than Magic in the film I've seen of them both.

This isn't saying Magic doesn't do anything defensively better than Curry, this isn't me saying Curry's in another world defensively, this is me just saying I'm slightly more comfortable with Curry on a modern defense than Magic. Not sure how this is a "massive overrating" of Curry

Well now you're just flat-out putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, mon ami.

You didn't explicitly address that in your original comment(and it was a central point), so I asked for clarification. Since you specifically distinguished between "moving off-ball" vs "being an accurate attacker" and the comment you responded to mentioned "changing how defenses react", I think my extrapolation was fair tho perhaps if I said "move off ball enough" you wouldn't have read it as an attack.


Regardless you elaborate well enough, and I don't have a strong opinion on the subject. Sorry if i came off as hostile, but I promise I'm harmless

Sorry for misinterpreting! The 'enough' bit would have definitely changed how I read it. My b

S'all good though. Since it sounds like y'all are slightly higher on the Magic-Allen combo then I am, would you take him over the West-Oscar combo too?

I don't have a strong opinion on the magic-allen because i'm not sure how much shooting/off-ball movement i should extrapolate for him.

Assuming perfect modern era translation west/oscar would probably be the ideal combination though as you get shooting/off-ball/port(relative to the 60's) and the goatish-level helio o(relative to era). Not sure if they actually translate too well though so when the thread asks which "skillset" i'd take for the modern league idk.

Oscar/west probably murks the competition in terms of era-relative impact tho.

[henshao]

I don't know West/Oscar well enough to make a case for them in a more modern era either way but obviously it would be an amazing player. Magic I think is being undersold, though. He was always a guy who, IMO, could already drop 30 or 40 on any given night if required. Ray Allen's 3 ball/shooting at Magic's height and combination of other offensive talents makes him very scary, like some hybrid of Kevin Durant and Lebron James on offense. Although perhaps Ray was not the shooter off the dribble Curry is, and Magic developed a strong jump shot over time as it is, coming into the league as Magic+Shooting 5-7 and hitting 2-4 tres per game is just too punishing for defenses.

You won't find many more stark advocates of strong two-way players than me but Magic gets a pass for a few reasons. Point guard is perhaps the least important position to have a strong defender, and IIRC Magic didn't really defend the 1 that much anyway, he usually was played as a long 2 or 3 on defense. Furthermore any matchup problems he has on defense are usually exponentially worse for the other team. As mentioned he actually picked off a lot of passes in his time (Magic led the league in steals twice). Finally he was a competent rebounder, and I don't recall him stealing rebounds from his teammates that much, even if the logic behind it makes some degree of sense (let your PG bring the ball up).

[homecourtloss]

OP should have had Jason Kidd adding Ray Allen's or Klay Thompson's shooting. As it is, I don't see Curry ever as a poor enough defender to benefit greatly from Payton's historically overrated defense. If it were Curry + Nate McMillian then we might have something there.

I think Stockton, an impact titan, gaining Prime Westbrook's athleticism would be really something. As it is, he was a master at finishing when he got the chance, but would become that much better given Westbrook's athleticism. Westbrook himself has always been a mediocre finisher. You would also see Stockton's defense improve from what it already was. which would make him a monster.

But I think I will have to go with CP3 becoming 6'7--6'8. You already have a generational impactful defender at his position due to his strength, IQ, quick hands, and instincts. Give him Magic's size and then you have some other type of animal Prime CP3 was highly underrated as an athlete and give him Magic's size...I see that player as being the most impactful.

[70sFan]

If the latter part is directed at me, me saying that "on defense, Curry's a little over neutral" is somehow misjudging Curry as an "overrated defender by a significant margin."... Really? Saying Curry's slightly over neutral is a massive overrating?

It's not directly to you, although you are one of the posters who are quite high on Curry defense. I agree he's "slightly over neutral", but you also implied that he was clearly better than Magic, which means you have Magic as below average defender.

Curry's not great laterally, but to me he's quicker laterally than Magic. Neither are ideal as point of attack defenders and both are better suited elsewhere, but we do live in an era where deep playoff runs almost always require beating a team that picks on the slowest lateral defender constantly in pick and roll or isolation. To me, Curry's stronger there than Magic in the film I've seen of them both.

Yeah, Curry is quicker. He's also 5 inches smaller. I really don't understand why we treat Magic like a small PG who should defend other PGs. Magic was bigger than Draymond Green and almost as big as Looney. He'd defend forwards and today teams don't switch everything anymore.

About POA defense - I don't see this being a successfull strategy against Magic. I know teams did that against Luka last playoffs, but I doubt it would work against Magic.

[frica]

I'll go with the hot take of Isiah Thomas with Miller's shooting.

He already was an amazing ball handler, finisher and passer.
Give him (much) more than mediocre shooting and a resilient PG becomes one of the most dangerous forces there is.