2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[ty 4191]

Then Embiid can't miss two more games this season - need I remind you that only 1 MVP in 40+ years has missed over 10 games? Embiid is almost there, if he gets there it's a moot point.

Embiid is a part time player. He missed his first two entire seasons. That's 164 games.

Since then, he's missed 159 games. Two full seasons, basically.

He's awesome when he actually plays, but he's never going to win MVP being a part time player.

Bill Walton is the only MVP in NBA history to miss 20+ team games, correct?

[Cubbies2120]

Then Embiid can't miss two more games this season - need I remind you that only 1 MVP in 40+ years has missed over 10 games? Embiid is almost there, if he gets there it's a moot point.

Embiid is a part time player. He missed his first two entire seasons. That's 164 games.

Since then, he's missed 159 games. Two full seasons, basically.

He's awesome when he actually plays, but he's never going to win MVP being a part time player.

Bill Walton is the only MVP in NBA history to miss 20+ team games, correct?

20+ team games...try lowering the bar to even less, I think only Iverson has won with more than 10 games missed (he missed 11 in '01). Embiid would have to have insane, eyepopping stats SIGNIFICANTLY better than the other MVP competitors to be allowed to miss double digit games.

The award is most VALUABLE player, and it's hard to call someone valuable when they're sitting in a suit on the sidelines for 15% of a season...

[ty 4191]

20+ team games...try lowering the bar to even less, I think only Iverson has won with more than 10 games missed (he missed 11 in '01). Embiid would have to have insane, eyepopping stats SIGNIFICANTLY better than the other MVP competitors to be allowed to miss double digit games.

The award is most VALUABLE player, and it's hard to call someone valuable when they're sitting in a suit on the sidelines for 15% of a season...

His stats are certainly staggering, but, for the third year in a row.......he's not as valuable as Jokic. Even on a per game basis.

He's played only 395 games and he's missed 323 games in his career, including the playoffs.

Part time player.

[Fencer reregistered]

Why have him on your list at all then?

I respect him. In any other year he'd be top 2 or 3... But given that he has already won two I can't see how he gets another. They wouldn't even give Giannis 2 and he's won a chip, but they'll give Jokic 3 with zero chips?

1. The MVP is decided before the playoffs. Chips are irrelevant to MVP.

2. You laughed off Jokic and pimped Embiid all year last season, every single day here, said Jokic had no chance of another MVP, said his MVP the year before was illegitimate, ranted about voter fatigue, Nuggets team record, etc. etc..

And yet, Jokic won MVP easily. Again.

It essentially puts him as a top 10 to 20 player of all time. Which you can't be without a chip.

Second, you wouldn't consider these guys top 10-20 all time?
Charles Barkley
John Stockton
Elgin Baylor
Steve Nash
Reggie Miller
Karl Malone

Few people would put Reggie top 20. I'm biased toward longevity and trend-setting, both of which favor him, and even I wouldn't put him that high. Stockton and Nash aren't consensus top-20 either. The other 3 probably are, although of course they slip as other players surpass them.

[eyeatoma]

In order:
1. Embiid
2. Giannis
3. Durant
4. Tatum
5. Jokic

True Shooting %:
Jokic: .683 (4th)
Embiid: .639 (24th)

On/Off:
Jokic: +22.8 (1st)
Embiid: +9.2 (20th)

Raw Plus/Minus:
Jokic: +226 (2nd)
Embiid: +147 (15th)

eFG%:
Jokic: .641 (5th)
Embiid: .555 (50th)

PER:
Jokic: 31.2 (1st)
Embiid: 30.2 (4th)

Win Shares:
Jokic: 5.7 (1st)
Embiid: 4.3 (10th)

WS/48:
Jokic: .297 (1st)
Embiid: .248 (3rd)

BPM:
Jokic: 12.0 (1st)
Embiid: 8.9 (4th)

VORP:
Jokic: 3.3 (2nd)
Embiid: 2.2 (10th)

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9 (1st)
Embiid: 6.9 (4th)

Real Plus Minus:
Jokic: 7.80 (3rd)
Embiid: 6.95 (5th)

RAPTOR:
Jokic: +14.4 (1st)
Embiid: +7.5 (9th)

RAPTOR WAR:
Jokic: +8.3 (1st)
Embiid: +4.3 (9th)

Jokic: Chips

0

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[eyeatoma]

Why have him on your list at all then?

I respect him. In any other year he'd be top 2 or 3... But given that he has already won two I can't see how he gets another. They wouldn't even give Giannis 2 and he's won a chip, but they'll give Jokic 3 with zero chips?

1. The MVP is decided before the playoffs. Chips are irrelevant to MVP.

2. You laughed off Jokic and pimped Embiid all year last season, every single day here, said Jokic had no chance of another MVP, said his MVP the year before was illegitimate, ranted about voter fatigue, Nuggets team record, etc. etc..

And yet, Jokic won MVP easily. Again.

It essentially puts him as a top 10 to 20 player of all time. Which you can't be without a chip.

Second, you wouldn't consider these guys top 10-20 all time?
Charles Barkley
John Stockton
Elgin Baylor
Steve Nash
Reggie Miller
Karl Malone

The NBA has an official to 75...

The only player without a chip there is Karl Malone.

And no I wouldn't consider them top 20...

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

[NoDopeOnSundays]

In order:
1. Embiid
2. Giannis
3. Durant
4. Tatum
5. Jokic

True Shooting %:
Jokic: .683 (4th)
Embiid: .639 (24th)

On/Off:
Jokic: +22.8 (1st)
Embiid: +9.2 (20th)

Raw Plus/Minus:
Jokic: +226 (2nd)
Embiid: +147 (15th)

eFG%:
Jokic: .641 (5th)
Embiid: .555 (50th)

PER:
Jokic: 31.2 (1st)
Embiid: 30.2 (4th)

Win Shares:
Jokic: 5.7 (1st)
Embiid: 4.3 (10th)

WS/48:
Jokic: .297 (1st)
Embiid: .248 (3rd)

BPM:
Jokic: 12.0 (1st)
Embiid: 8.9 (4th)

VORP:
Jokic: 3.3 (2nd)
Embiid: 2.2 (10th)

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9 (1st)
Embiid: 6.9 (4th)

Real Plus Minus:
Jokic: 7.80 (3rd)
Embiid: 6.95 (5th)

RAPTOR:
Jokic: +14.4 (1st)
Embiid: +7.5 (9th)

RAPTOR WAR:
Jokic: +8.3 (1st)
Embiid: +4.3 (9th)

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?



Team defense falls on the shoulders of centers, hence Rudy Gobert winning all the DPOY because of where the Jazz ranked. Embiid is elite on both sides of the court, not just one.

[Sharkboy242]

In order:
1. Embiid
2. Giannis
3. Durant
4. Tatum
5. Jokic

True Shooting %:
Jokic: .683 (4th)
Embiid: .639 (24th)

On/Off:
Jokic: +22.8 (1st)
Embiid: +9.2 (20th)

Raw Plus/Minus:
Jokic: +226 (2nd)
Embiid: +147 (15th)

eFG%:
Jokic: .641 (5th)
Embiid: .555 (50th)

PER:
Jokic: 31.2 (1st)
Embiid: 30.2 (4th)

Win Shares:
Jokic: 5.7 (1st)
Embiid: 4.3 (10th)

WS/48:
Jokic: .297 (1st)
Embiid: .248 (3rd)

BPM:
Jokic: 12.0 (1st)
Embiid: 8.9 (4th)

VORP:
Jokic: 3.3 (2nd)
Embiid: 2.2 (10th)

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9 (1st)
Embiid: 6.9 (4th)

Real Plus Minus:
Jokic: 7.80 (3rd)
Embiid: 6.95 (5th)

RAPTOR:
Jokic: +14.4 (1st)
Embiid: +7.5 (9th)

RAPTOR WAR:
Jokic: +8.3 (1st)
Embiid: +4.3 (9th)

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?



Team defense falls on the shoulders of centers, hence Rudy Gobert winning all the DPOY because of where the Jazz ranked. Embiid is elite on both sides of the court, not just one.

Nuggets are first in the West, that’s where they are. Lol @ trying to regard defensive rating as something more meaningful than actual record.

Even with Phillys respectable record, how many games did Embiid miss and what was philly’s record in those games?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

True Shooting %:
Jokic: .683 (4th)
Embiid: .639 (24th)

On/Off:
Jokic: +22.8 (1st)
Embiid: +9.2 (20th)

Raw Plus/Minus:
Jokic: +226 (2nd)
Embiid: +147 (15th)

eFG%:
Jokic: .641 (5th)
Embiid: .555 (50th)

PER:
Jokic: 31.2 (1st)
Embiid: 30.2 (4th)

Win Shares:
Jokic: 5.7 (1st)
Embiid: 4.3 (10th)

WS/48:
Jokic: .297 (1st)
Embiid: .248 (3rd)

BPM:
Jokic: 12.0 (1st)
Embiid: 8.9 (4th)

VORP:
Jokic: 3.3 (2nd)
Embiid: 2.2 (10th)

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9 (1st)
Embiid: 6.9 (4th)

Real Plus Minus:
Jokic: 7.80 (3rd)
Embiid: 6.95 (5th)

RAPTOR:
Jokic: +14.4 (1st)
Embiid: +7.5 (9th)

RAPTOR WAR:
Jokic: +8.3 (1st)
Embiid: +4.3 (9th)

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?



Team defense falls on the shoulders of centers, hence Rudy Gobert winning all the DPOY because of where the Jazz ranked. Embiid is elite on both sides of the court, not just one.

Nuggets are first in the West, that’s where they are. Lol @ trying to regard defensive rating as something more meaningful than actual record.

Even with Phillys respectable record, how many games did Embiid miss and what was philly’s record in those games?

Does the criteria just change on a whim? The Sixers were first two years ago, Jokic won, last year Jokic won cause his 2nd and 3rd best players were out while they maintained a "respectable" record. This year, Harden has missed almost half the season, Maxey has missed half the season, the Sixers are 19-12. Just say you want to give Jokic the MVP no matter what.


The Nuggets defense this year is atrocious, some of that falls on Jokic since Centers are the anchors of defense, Embiid is elite on both ends. Period. I also want to hear your explanation for Jokic over Giannis too

[maxwellcu]

Jokic won in years when Embiid had a better W/L record (or better seed) because Jokic's individual performance was far, far ahead of Embiid's. Furthermore, I don't care to check two years ago, but last year IIRC the Nuggets had a better W/L with Jokic on the court than the Sixers had with Embiid on the court.

This year, not only is Jokic much better than Embiid individually, but Denver is as good or better than Philadelphia.

So the argument for Embiid is even weaker than it has been in years past. Not better.

These one-stat "gotcha" arguments are weak. Jokic winning MVP instead of Embiid was never predicated on a single goalpost, much less a single moving goalpost, despite what you would have people believe. Jokic has been a *clearly* better player than Embiid over the past few seasons according to any reasonable aggregation of meaningful criteria/stats/whatever. This year, the argument is probably stronger than ever before.

[Sharkboy242]

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?



Team defense falls on the shoulders of centers, hence Rudy Gobert winning all the DPOY because of where the Jazz ranked. Embiid is elite on both sides of the court, not just one.

Nuggets are first in the West, that’s where they are. Lol @ trying to regard defensive rating as something more meaningful than actual record.

Even with Phillys respectable record, how many games did Embiid miss and what was philly’s record in those games?

Does the criteria just change on a whim? The Sixers were first two years ago, Jokic won, last year Jokic won cause his 2nd and 3rd best players were out while they maintained a "respectable" record. This year, Harden has missed almost half the season, Maxey has missed half the season, the Sixers are 19-12. Just say you want to give Jokic the MVP no matter what.


The Nuggets defense this year is atrocious, some of that falls on Jokic since Centers are the anchors of defense, Embiid is elite on both ends. Period. I also want to hear your explanation for Jokic over Giannis too

Jokic won the past two seasons because he had better individual stats than Embiid. What’s hard to understand about that?

Yes the sixers are 19-12… but Embiid has missed like 5 games. Does he get credit for those Ws? Why would you not subtract them from that win total?

And once again, regardless of team stuff Jokic has better individual numbers. Cry about it all you want, its facts.

[Sharkboy242]

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?



Team defense falls on the shoulders of centers, hence Rudy Gobert winning all the DPOY because of where the Jazz ranked. Embiid is elite on both sides of the court, not just one.

Nuggets are first in the West, that’s where they are. Lol @ trying to regard defensive rating as something more meaningful than actual record.

Even with Phillys respectable record, how many games did Embiid miss and what was philly’s record in those games?

Does the criteria just change on a whim? The Sixers were first two years ago, Jokic won, last year Jokic won cause his 2nd and 3rd best players were out while they maintained a "respectable" record. This year, Harden has missed almost half the season, Maxey has missed half the season, the Sixers are 19-12. Just say you want to give Jokic the MVP no matter what.


The Nuggets defense this year is atrocious, some of that falls on Jokic since Centers are the anchors of defense, Embiid is elite on both ends. Period. I also want to hear your explanation for Jokic over Giannis too

Jokic won the past two seasons because he had better individual stats than Embiid. What’s hard to understand about that?

Yes the sixers are 19-12… but Embiid has missed like 5 games. Does he get credit for those Ws? Why would you not subtract them from that win total?

And once again, regardless of team stuff Jokic has better individual numbers. Cry about it all you want, its facts.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Nuggets are first in the West, that’s where they are. Lol @ trying to regard defensive rating as something more meaningful than actual record.

Even with Phillys respectable record, how many games did Embiid miss and what was philly’s record in those games?

Does the criteria just change on a whim? The Sixers were first two years ago, Jokic won, last year Jokic won cause his 2nd and 3rd best players were out while they maintained a "respectable" record. This year, Harden has missed almost half the season, Maxey has missed half the season, the Sixers are 19-12. Just say you want to give Jokic the MVP no matter what.


The Nuggets defense this year is atrocious, some of that falls on Jokic since Centers are the anchors of defense, Embiid is elite on both ends. Period. I also want to hear your explanation for Jokic over Giannis too

Jokic won the past two seasons because he had better individual stats than Embiid. What’s hard to understand about that?

Yes the sixers are 19-12… but Embiid has missed like 5 games. Does he get credit for those Ws? Why would you not subtract them from that win total?

And once again, regardless of team stuff Jokic has better individual numbers. Cry about it all you want, its facts.

When do you plan on talking about defense?

[Sharkboy242]

Does the criteria just change on a whim? The Sixers were first two years ago, Jokic won, last year Jokic won cause his 2nd and 3rd best players were out while they maintained a "respectable" record. This year, Harden has missed almost half the season, Maxey has missed half the season, the Sixers are 19-12. Just say you want to give Jokic the MVP no matter what.


The Nuggets defense this year is atrocious, some of that falls on Jokic since Centers are the anchors of defense, Embiid is elite on both ends. Period. I also want to hear your explanation for Jokic over Giannis too

Jokic won the past two seasons because he had better individual stats than Embiid. What’s hard to understand about that?

Yes the sixers are 19-12… but Embiid has missed like 5 games. Does he get credit for those Ws? Why would you not subtract them from that win total?

And once again, regardless of team stuff Jokic has better individual numbers. Cry about it all you want, its facts.

When do you plan on talking about defense?

Basketball success is measured by wins… did we crown the Celtics last year for being the best defensive team? I dont get the argument. The Nuggets have a better record than the Sixers. Do we make the standings based on defensive rating? Is that what you’re saying? Pick a better argument.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Jokic won the past two seasons because he had better individual stats than Embiid. What’s hard to understand about that?

Yes the sixers are 19-12… but Embiid has missed like 5 games. Does he get credit for those Ws? Why would you not subtract them from that win total?

And once again, regardless of team stuff Jokic has better individual numbers. Cry about it all you want, its facts.

When do you plan on talking about defense?

Basketball success is measured by wins… did we crown the Celtics last year for being the best defensive team? I dont get the argument. The Nuggets have a better record than the Sixers. Do we make the standings based on defensive rating? Is that what you’re saying? Pick a better argument.

The Celtics defense is why they made it to the finals, that and Middleton being hurt. I see you don't want to talk about defense, and how it would matter that one guy is averaging 33ppg while being a top 3 DPOY candidate as well, while you and your ilk just post offensive stats and never want to talk defense, the Nuggets are 24th defensively since you didn't answer earlier. Good day sir.

[Sharkboy242]

/

[Sharkboy242]

When do you plan on talking about defense?

Basketball success is measured by wins… did we crown the Celtics last year for being the best defensive team? I dont get the argument. The Nuggets have a better record than the Sixers. Do we make the standings based on defensive rating? Is that what you’re saying? Pick a better argument.

The Celtics defense is why they made it to the finals, that and Middleton being hurt. I see you don't want to talk about defense, and how it would matter that one guy is averaging 33ppg while being a top 3 DPOY candidate as well, while you and your ilk just post offensive stats and never want to talk defense, the Nuggets are 24th defensively since you didn't answer earlier. Good day sir.

You’d think that being the best scorer + having a top 3 defense would get you to the ECF at least eh? Anyways, you bringing up defense is no different than me bring up passing. There’s difference facets to basketball and defense is one of them, yes. But at least smart people realize that defense is more team dependent rather than individual.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Basketball success is measured by wins… did we crown the Celtics last year for being the best defensive team? I dont get the argument. The Nuggets have a better record than the Sixers. Do we make the standings based on defensive rating? Is that what you’re saying? Pick a better argument.

The Celtics defense is why they made it to the finals, that and Middleton being hurt. I see you don't want to talk about defense, and how it would matter that one guy is averaging 33ppg while being a top 3 DPOY candidate as well, while you and your ilk just post offensive stats and never want to talk defense, the Nuggets are 24th defensively since you didn't answer earlier. Good day sir.

You’d think that being the best scorer + having a top 3 defense would get you to the ECF at least eh? Anyways, you bringing up defense is no different than me bring up passing. There’s difference facets to basketball and defense is one of them, yes. But at least smart people realize that defense is more team dependent rather than individual.

Isn't that what Trae Young fans used to say about Luka, that he didn't make the conference finals? Passing is just another facet of offense, it's on the same side of the court Jokic is elite at, on the other side of the floor he hasn't been very good this season, certainly not as good as last season. There are 2 sides of the court, both are equally as important, one guy is elite on both sides, the other isn't. Smart people also know how to quote properly without furiously hitting submit so much that they keep doubling their replies.

[ty 4191]

Embiid is way way way ahead on defense, the Sixers are 2nd in the league, where are the Nuggets?

Team defense falls on the shoulders of centers, hence Rudy Gobert winning all the DPOY because of where the Jazz ranked. Embiid is elite on both sides of the court, not just one.

Nuggets are first in the West, that’s where they are. Lol @ trying to regard defensive rating as something more meaningful than actual record.

Even with Phillys respectable record, how many games did Embiid miss and what was philly’s record in those games?

Embiid has missed 8 games, already, and the Sixers record is still 5-3 without him. +58 point differential.

Jokic missed 3 games due to COVID, and the Nuggets are 1-2 without him. One miracle win and a point differential of -30 in those three games.

[ty 4191]

Nuggets are first in the West, that’s where they are. Lol @ trying to regard defensive rating as something more meaningful than actual record.

Even with Phillys respectable record, how many games did Embiid miss and what was philly’s record in those games?

Does the criteria just change on a whim? The Sixers were first two years ago, Jokic won, last year Jokic won cause his 2nd and 3rd best players were out while they maintained a "respectable" record. This year, Harden has missed almost half the season, Maxey has missed half the season, the Sixers are 19-12. Just say you want to give Jokic the MVP no matter what.


The Nuggets defense this year is atrocious, some of that falls on Jokic since Centers are the anchors of defense, Embiid is elite on both ends. Period. I also want to hear your explanation for Jokic over Giannis too

Jokic won the past two seasons because he had better individual stats than Embiid. What’s hard to understand about that?

Yes the sixers are 19-12… but Embiid has missed like 5 games. Does he get credit for those Ws? Why would you not subtract them from that win total?

And once again, regardless of team stuff Jokic has better individual numbers. Cry about it all you want, its facts.

Jokic team record when he's played this year: 19-9 (.679)

Embiid's team record when he's played this year: 14-9 (.609)