How many Centers would you take over current Jokic?

[70sFan]

Not against 1992-96 pre injury Robinson

Great point. Everyone here forgets just how diminished Robinson was after he broke his foot (December 24, 1996).

He was clearly becoming one of the greatest players ever before that injury.

--Shaq vs. D Rob before he broke his foot: 25.3/13.3/1.7/0.6/1.7 with 3.7 TOV/G on .511 shooting.

--D Rob vs. Shaq: 29.4/12.0/4.6/3.0/2.7 with 2.7 TOV/G on .487 shooting

Nobody forgets anything here. You include rookie and sophomore games in these averages, of course Shaq wasn't as good as Robinson then.

[falcolombardi]

Also i wouldnt judge two players by their stats in individusl duels either

[ty 4191]

Nobody forgets anything here. You include rookie and sophomore games in these averages, of course Shaq wasn't as good as Robinson then.

The general public and average fan, Amigo. They don't know how much breaking his foot decimated an ATG career.

Shaq was a monster from day one. On both sides of the ball. You disagree?

(PS: Merry Christmas, brother! Or, whatever you celebrate!!)

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Not against 1992-96 pre injury Robinson

Great point. Everyone here forgets just how diminished Robinson was after he broke his foot (December 24, 1996).

He was clearly becoming one of the greatest players ever before that injury.

--Shaq vs. D Rob before he broke his foot: 25.3/13.3/1.7/0.6/1.7 with 3.7 TOV/G on .511 shooting.

--D Rob vs. Shaq: 29.4/12.0/4.6/3.0/2.7 with 2.7 TOV/G on .487 shooting

I remember watching this game live in NBC and I'm rewatching their meeting in the 93-94 season here:

Watch on YouTube

Shaq got Robinson to bite on a fake with slick up under and at 1:46 leading a dunk (Jokic could never do that move from that distance as he lacks the fast twitch explosion of Orlando Shaq) and also later he got Robinson to bite on a fake resulting in a foul. Other than that Robinson contested everything from Shaq in a defensively sound manner without being caught out of place.

This was the 2nd highest scoring season of Shaqs entire career. For someone to bring up him being a sophomore is just a excuse imho. Shaq was already pretty much "there" as a offensive force.

[falcolombardi]

Why are we comparing robinson and shaq based on stats in games vs each other?

[ty 4191]

Why are we comparing robinson and shaq based on stats in games vs each other?

Why wouldn't/shouldn't we?

[falcolombardi]

Why are we comparing robinson and shaq based on stats in games vs each other?

Why wouldn't/shouldn't we?

Because basketball is not a 1vs1 game where the goal is to out-stat your "man" and the games between shaq and robinson were a ultra tiny part of theur overall games in that period

Robinson doing well vs shaq in this period doesmt change his offense struggles in the playoffs

[MyUniBroDavis]

Re: How many Centers would you take over current Jokic?

Wilt
Kareem
Russell

That's probably it. A few more years of this and he's approaching Wilt/Russell/Kareem territory.

Jokic has become one of the top few offensive players in NBA history. And, the narrative surrounding his defense is overblown. He's slow and can't jump, true, so he's not a rim protector, but, he leads all centers in steals by a 50% margin the past 3 seasons. He's tremendous at deflections and disrupting in the paint, despite his physical limitations.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-bolstered-his-mvp-case-with-his-defense/

Last 3 seasons, including playoffs: (189 games) 26.7/12.0/8.1 on +9.5 rTS%.

Who's had a better 3 year average offensively (all around) than that?

The narrative about his defense is about him getting targeted in extended pick and roll in the playoffs

He’s a good defender in the RS so far, and been a horrible one in the playoffs

It’s not an issue that is unique to him in the modern era and I don’t think it’s quite as bad as the stats would indicate maybe but it’s pretty horrible in that regard

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Why are we comparing robinson and shaq based on stats in games vs each other?

I personally wasn't....it was more of a reference to the earlier post that the skilled post players could exploit Robinsons supposed weakness of biting on fakes and drawing a parallel to Jokic being able to.

From the 90s matchups only Hakeem from that era was able to get Robinson to repeatedly bite on fakes in games. Shaq had very good scoring games vs Robinson, but his brute physical strength was more the determining factor in getting points vs Robinson than elusiveness.

[70sFan]

Nobody forgets anything here. You include rookie and sophomore games in these averages, of course Shaq wasn't as good as Robinson then.

The general public and average fan, Amigo. They don't know how much breaking his foot decimated an ATG career.

Shaq was a monster from day one. On both sides of the ball. You disagree?

(PS: Merry Christmas, brother! Or, whatever you celebrate!!)

Yeah, he was a monster from day one, but he improved with experience. One doesn't change the other.

I do celebrate Christmas, definitely. Thank you and I also wish you the best!

[70sFan]

I remember watching this game live in NBC and I'm rewatching their meeting in the 93-94 season here:

Watch on YouTube

Shaq got Robinson to bite on a fake with slick up under and at 1:46 leading a dunk (Jokic could never do that move from that distance as he lacks the fast twitch explosion of Orlando Shaq) and also later he got Robinson to bite on a fake resulting in a foul. Other than that Robinson contested everything from Shaq in a defensively sound manner without being caught out of place.

Let's take a closer look at this video. Here are all the possessions Admiral guarded Shaq:

0:52 - sound defense, bad shot by Shaq
1:43 - Robinson bitten on a pump fake, dunk by Shaq
1:57 - unsuccessful gamble by Robinson leading to a foul
2:24 - sound defense, hook missed
3:35 - no mistake here, Shaq made hook without contest
4:05 - again, Shaq made hook (goaltending)
5:07 - no major weakness, but Robinson showed no resistance against Shaq strength, he didn't even try physically to fight for position
5:55 - successfull gamble, steal
6:52 - good shot defense, but no boxout and easy second chance points by Shaq
7:40 - bitten on a pump fake, foul
9:10 - successfull gamble, steal

We can see Robinson going for pump fake twice, went for a steal three times (missing one), contesting two shots well, allowing for easy putback and showing little physicality inside. This is only one game from his sophomore season, peak Shaq was a different beast.

Of course Jokic couldn't dunk on him all the time, but these positional mistakes would have a high cost against someone as refined offensively as Jokic. Not to mention that Jokic could punish him from basically any area on the floor.

This was the 2nd highest scoring season of Shaqs entire career. For someone to bring up him being a sophomore is just a excuse imho. Shaq was already pretty much "there" as a offensive force.

Just because his scoring production was similar to 2000 doesn't mean he was "there". Shaq became significantly more refined low post scorer, there is no debate here.

[ty 4191]

I remember watching this game live in NBC and I'm rewatching their meeting in the 93-94 season here:

Watch on YouTube

Shaq got Robinson to bite on a fake with slick up under and at 1:46 leading a dunk (Jokic could never do that move from that distance as he lacks the fast twitch explosion of Orlando Shaq) and also later he got Robinson to bite on a fake resulting in a foul. Other than that Robinson contested everything from Shaq in a defensively sound manner without being caught out of place.

Let's take a closer look at this video. Here are all the possessions Admiral guarded Shaq:

0:52 - sound defense, bad shot by Shaq
1:43 - Robinson bitten on a pump fake, dunk by Shaq
1:57 - unsuccessful gamble by Robinson leading to a foul
2:24 - sound defense, hook missed
3:35 - no mistake here, Shaq made hook without contest
4:05 - again, Shaq made hook (goaltending)
5:07 - no major weakness, but Robinson showed no resistance against Shaq strength, he didn't even try physically to fight for position
5:55 - successfull gamble, steal
6:52 - good shot defense, but no boxout and easy second chance points by Shaq
7:40 - bitten on a pump fake, foul
9:10 - successfull gamble, steal

We can see Robinson going for pump fake twice, went for a steal three times (missing one), contesting two shots well, allowing for easy putback and showing little physicality inside. This is only one game from his sophomore season, peak Shaq was a different beast.

Of course Jokic couldn't dunk on him all the time, but these positional mistakes would have a high cost against someone as refined offensively as Jokic. Not to mention that Jokic could punish him from basically any area on the floor.

This was the 2nd highest scoring season of Shaqs entire career. For someone to bring up him being a sophomore is just a excuse imho. Shaq was already pretty much "there" as a offensive force.

Just because his scoring production was similar to 2000 doesn't mean he was "there". Shaq became significantly more refined low post scorer, there is no debate here.

Outstanding, professional breakdown, as per your usual. Well done, Sir!!!

Question: How would Jokic do against prime Wilt? My friends don't think Jokic would get a shot off from 15 feet and in....

[70sFan]

I remember watching this game live in NBC and I'm rewatching their meeting in the 93-94 season here:

Watch on YouTube

Shaq got Robinson to bite on a fake with slick up under and at 1:46 leading a dunk (Jokic could never do that move from that distance as he lacks the fast twitch explosion of Orlando Shaq) and also later he got Robinson to bite on a fake resulting in a foul. Other than that Robinson contested everything from Shaq in a defensively sound manner without being caught out of place.

Let's take a closer look at this video. Here are all the possessions Admiral guarded Shaq:

0:52 - sound defense, bad shot by Shaq
1:43 - Robinson bitten on a pump fake, dunk by Shaq
1:57 - unsuccessful gamble by Robinson leading to a foul
2:24 - sound defense, hook missed
3:35 - no mistake here, Shaq made hook without contest
4:05 - again, Shaq made hook (goaltending)
5:07 - no major weakness, but Robinson showed no resistance against Shaq strength, he didn't even try physically to fight for position
5:55 - successfull gamble, steal
6:52 - good shot defense, but no boxout and easy second chance points by Shaq
7:40 - bitten on a pump fake, foul
9:10 - successfull gamble, steal

We can see Robinson going for pump fake twice, went for a steal three times (missing one), contesting two shots well, allowing for easy putback and showing little physicality inside. This is only one game from his sophomore season, peak Shaq was a different beast.

Of course Jokic couldn't dunk on him all the time, but these positional mistakes would have a high cost against someone as refined offensively as Jokic. Not to mention that Jokic could punish him from basically any area on the floor.

This was the 2nd highest scoring season of Shaqs entire career. For someone to bring up him being a sophomore is just a excuse imho. Shaq was already pretty much "there" as a offensive force.

Just because his scoring production was similar to 2000 doesn't mean he was "there". Shaq became significantly more refined low post scorer, there is no debate here.

Outstanding, professional breakdown, as per your usual. Well done, Sir!!!

Question: How would Jokic do against prime Wilt? My friends don't think Jokic would get a shot off from 15 feet and in....

I think Jokic would give him a lot of problems with his shooting and movement. Wilt would likely negate his inside game, but Jokic is too complete to be stopped one on one

[Peregrine01]

Jokic, like Shaq, doesn’t really struggle as much against the tall lean centers. Sturdy dudes with lower centers of gravity give them more trouble like Draymond and Rodman.

[falcolombardi]

Jokic, like Shaq, doesn’t really struggle as much against the tall lean centers. Sturdy dudes with lower centers of gravity give them more trouble like Draymond and Rodman.

Wilt seems so outlier strong on tape that even with his tall and lean frame i wouldnt be surprisef if he was as sturdy to move as some lower center of gravity guys....but i have no way of proving that lol

[migya]

Also i wouldnt judge two players by their stats in individusl duels either

In regards to Robinson marry did judge him on his matchup with Olajuwon in the 95 wcf. Not many look at their matchups throughout their career and how Robinson did well.

The only way to see how one player fares against another is in matchups against each other.

[falcolombardi]

Also i wouldnt judge two players by their stats in individusl duels either

In regards to Robinson marry did judge him on his matchup with Olajuwon in the 95 wcf. Not many look at their matchups throughout their career and how Robinson did well.

The only way to see how one player fares against another is in matchups against each other.

And they would be wrong in doing so, as the issue with robinson was not having -one- weaker series, but a consistent history of struggling as a first option in the post season (more often against utah)

Judging players head to head is only useful insofar as those players meet, which wont be often for mosr star players

So for evaluating which player is better you need to look at them against the field, not in the head to head

[TheFire]

I think he’s the greatest offensive center already and top 10 offensive player ever. If you give Jokic Darko’s D and athleticism, he’s the greatest center of all time in my book.

[70sFan]

Jokic, like Shaq, doesn’t really struggle as much against the tall lean centers. Sturdy dudes with lower centers of gravity give them more trouble like Draymond and Rodman.

Is this related to the Wilt question?

[Laimbeer]

Wilt and Kareem were more dominant. Probably Shaq and Hakeem as well. Mikan in his time might be the most dominant player ever.

Centers aren't as dominant now given how the game is played. Joker may be the best for this game.