DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

[TheLand13]

Don't get into hysterics. Calm down. Listen, watch, and try to learn something instead of throwing tantrums.

You were arguing that Mobley is a dpoy level defender for half of this thread - those clips are a good display at how his lower body weakness prevents him from being able to hold his own in the post right now. If you, like Mobley, no longer hold that position, that's great, let's stop talking about Mobley in the DPOY thread.

We also saw both Mobley and Allen have trouble defending in space against forwards, but let's call that a one-off.

On the other end, you saw a good display of how OG dominates whatever assignment he's on - and that assignment is usually the other team's top scorer. Again, that's back to back games now where he's held Mitchell to season lows. And he's done this all year against everyone (except Zion). That's why he's in the dpoy conversation.

Show me. Show me right now where I ever once argued in this thread that Mobley deserved DPOY consideration this year, let alone over Allen. I’m not reading the rest of your post until you do.

Your first post in this thread:

"OG behind the 16th ranked defense has more votes than Allen (or Mobley who’s not even in the poll) on the #1 defense that’s a full point ahead of the second place team in DRTG. Totally makes sense."

Second post:

"Mobley and Allen obviously make things easier for each other, but in order to sustain a #1 ranked defense, we basically need both guys playing at DPOY levels just to cover for all the holes elsewhere.

I don't mind OG getting mentioned as an All-Defensive Team guy. I just think he has a pretty weak case when you compare him to the rim protectors in the conversation."


Should I keep going? Do you know what selective amnesia is?

breh, this might be my favorite fail from a poster.

Those were from yoyoboy, not me.

Just an FYI, I have OG as the favorite to win DOOY this season.

Congrats. You played yourself.

[Kurtz]

Show me. Show me right now where I ever once argued in this thread that Mobley deserved DPOY consideration this year, let alone over Allen. I’m not reading the rest of your post until you do.

Your first post in this thread:

"OG behind the 16th ranked defense has more votes than Allen (or Mobley who’s not even in the poll) on the #1 defense that’s a full point ahead of the second place team in DRTG. Totally makes sense."

Second post:

"Mobley and Allen obviously make things easier for each other, but in order to sustain a #1 ranked defense, we basically need both guys playing at DPOY levels just to cover for all the holes elsewhere.

I don't mind OG getting mentioned as an All-Defensive Team guy. I just think he has a pretty weak case when you compare him to the rim protectors in the conversation."


Should I keep going? Do you know what selective amnesia is?

breh, this might be my favorite fail from a poster.

Those were from yoyoboy, not me.

Just an FYI, I have OG as the favorite to win DOOY this season.

Congrats. You played yourself.

Lol my bad, you took the baton from yoyo so swiftly that I didn't notice that it was a different Cleveland poster.

Well then I'm not sure what you and I are arguing about tbh. Sounds like you have more of an argument against Yoyo than myself.

[cupcakesnake]

My all-defense teams so far:

G: Jrue Holiday
G: OG Anunoby
F: Bam Adebayo
F: Jaren Jackson Jr.
C: Jarrett Allen

G: Alex Caruso
G: Derrick White
F: Giannis Antetokoumpo
F: Evan Mobley
C: Brook Lopez

The guys I'm seriously considering: Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid, Mathisse Thybulle, Jaden McDaniels, PJ Tucker, De'Anthony Melton, Dillon Brooks, Jevon Carter, Quentin Grimes, Draymond Green, Nicholas Claxton, Rudy Gobert, Kevin Durant, Dorian Finney-Smith, Marcus Smart, Jayson Tatum, Ben Simmons, Ivica Zubac, Pascal Siakam, Mitchell Robinson, Herb Jones, Jimmy Butler, Myles Turner, Lu Dort

So funny that we get 4 guards and 2 centers every year. I always try to shove wings into guard spots and smaller centers into forward spots when I can. I get they want it to make the team look like a real team, but what's the point of awarding the leagues best defenders when more than half of the top 10 defenders are centers and we only get 2 of those.

I think one of Embiid or Melton should be a lock imo. They’ve both been great all year it’s just that the C spot is stacked with great defenders. Melton has been incredible all season I have him comfortably over Caruso, quote me if I’m wrong but it’s basically the Sixers have had the best defence once Melton got inserted into the starting spot.

But other than good lists it’s just as you said you’ll end up with 3 centers on each All NBA team lol.

I don't think anyone is a lock right now. Defense is so hard to evaluate that even if you got the 10 smartest minds in basketball, they'd have different all-defense teams. I'm not really sure how to argue Derrick White and Alex Caruso over De'Anthony Melton and Lu Dort for example. I just try to see as much footage on these guys as possible while also listening to other people talk about what they're seeing. I assume you've watched more Phili tape than you have of other guys, so you both understand and value their defense higher than other guards. So I never react much when someone says their teams guys are the best. But I do think Melton has been awesome. So have Tucker and Embiid. Top 5 defense built around their talents mean that everyone should have them at least on their lists.

[TheLand13]

Your first post in this thread:

"OG behind the 16th ranked defense has more votes than Allen (or Mobley who’s not even in the poll) on the #1 defense that’s a full point ahead of the second place team in DRTG. Totally makes sense."

Second post:

"Mobley and Allen obviously make things easier for each other, but in order to sustain a #1 ranked defense, we basically need both guys playing at DPOY levels just to cover for all the holes elsewhere.

I don't mind OG getting mentioned as an All-Defensive Team guy. I just think he has a pretty weak case when you compare him to the rim protectors in the conversation."


Should I keep going? Do you know what selective amnesia is?

breh, this might be my favorite fail from a poster.

Those were from yoyoboy, not me.

Just an FYI, I have OG as the favorite to win DOOY this season.

Congrats. You played yourself.

Lol my bad, you took the baton from yoyo so swiftly that I didn't notice that it was a different Cleveland poster.

Well then I'm not sure what you and I are arguing about tbh. Sounds like you have more of an argument against Yoyo than myself.

I do. In fact in my very first post in this thread, I point blank state that people are overrating Allen for giving him DPOY votes. There is no way he should be fourth in voting. And keep in mind, I still think he’s a better defender than Mobley. The only thing I will say is that both Allen and Mobley will probably receive all defense consideration. I don’t know if they’ll necessarily make the teams though.

My main point from before was that you should watch the teams before proclaiming that certain players are defensive liabilities. I’m referring directly to three players you named, Garland, Mitchell and Levert.

I guess I might as well give my thoughts:

I do think that Allen and Mobley are really great defenders. Elite in fact. But they aren’t carrying their defense. Okoro and Stevens have been able to provide really good perimeter defense on a consistent basis. Garland and Mitchell, while not great or anything, haven’t been hurting them.

But LeVert has been the surprise standout. He’s really taken that side of the floor very seriously this year and he’s been able to make an impact.

It’s been a group effort. Cleveland may be the best defensive team, but Allen does not deserve DPOY consideration because of it. That’s just a lazy argument.

[Kurtz]

breh, this might be my favorite fail from a poster.

Those were from yoyoboy, not me.

Just an FYI, I have OG as the favorite to win DOOY this season.

Congrats. You played yourself.

Lol my bad, you took the baton from yoyo so swiftly that I didn't notice that it was a different Cleveland poster.

Well then I'm not sure what you and I are arguing about tbh. Sounds like you have more of an argument against Yoyo than myself.

I do. In fact in my very first post in this thread, I point blank state that people are overrating Allen for giving him DPOY votes. There is no way he should be fourth in voting. And keep in mind, I still think he’s a better defender than Mobley. The only thing I will say is that both Allen and Mobley will probably receive all defense consideration. I don’t know if they’ll necessarily make the teams though.

My main point from before was that you should watch the teams before proclaiming that certain players are defensive liabilities. I’m referring directly to three players you named, Garland, Mitchell and Levert.

I guess I might as well give my thoughts:

I do think that Allen and Mobley are really great defenders. Elite in fact. But they aren’t carrying their defense. Okoro and Stevens have been able to provide really good perimeter defense on a consistent basis. Garland and Mitchell, while not great or anything, haven’t been hurting them.

But LeVert has been the surprise standout. He’s really taken that side of the floor very seriously this year and he’s been able to make an impact.

It’s been a group effort. Cleveland may be the best defensive team, but Allen does not deserve DPOY consideration because of it. That’s just a lazy argument.

Cool. I've watched Garland, Mitchell and Levert plenty over the years, the latter two especially up close during the playoffs. All 3 were bad defensively to date. I've watched lots of Allen too - and I've been a big fan of his defense since watching him closely when he faced us in the playoffs 4 years ago.

If you're telling me that those 3 turned it around this year, then I'll defer to your judgement, as I've only watched Cleveland 4-5 times this year and you must have seen them all. Although I'll point out that your fellow fan, Yoyo, stated the complete opposite - that those 3 are weak defenders this year and Allen/Mobley have been bailing them out. So one of you has to be completely wrong or both only half-right?

[TheLand13]

Lol my bad, you took the baton from yoyo so swiftly that I didn't notice that it was a different Cleveland poster.

Well then I'm not sure what you and I are arguing about tbh. Sounds like you have more of an argument against Yoyo than myself.

I do. In fact in my very first post in this thread, I point blank state that people are overrating Allen for giving him DPOY votes. There is no way he should be fourth in voting. And keep in mind, I still think he’s a better defender than Mobley. The only thing I will say is that both Allen and Mobley will probably receive all defense consideration. I don’t know if they’ll necessarily make the teams though.

My main point from before was that you should watch the teams before proclaiming that certain players are defensive liabilities. I’m referring directly to three players you named, Garland, Mitchell and Levert.

I guess I might as well give my thoughts:

I do think that Allen and Mobley are really great defenders. Elite in fact. But they aren’t carrying their defense. Okoro and Stevens have been able to provide really good perimeter defense on a consistent basis. Garland and Mitchell, while not great or anything, haven’t been hurting them.

But LeVert has been the surprise standout. He’s really taken that side of the floor very seriously this year and he’s been able to make an impact.

It’s been a group effort. Cleveland may be the best defensive team, but Allen does not deserve DPOY consideration because of it. That’s just a lazy argument.

Cool. I've watched Garland, Mitchell and Levert plenty over the years, the latter two especially up close during the playoffs. All 3 were bad defensively to date. I've watched lots of Allen too - and I've been a big fan of his defense since watching him closely when he faced us in the playoffs 4 years ago.

If you're telling me that those 3 turned it around this year, then I'll defer to your judgement, as I've only watched Cleveland 4-5 times this year and you must have seen them all. Although I'll point out that your fellow fan, Yoyo, stated the complete opposite - that those 3 are weak defenders this year and Allen/Mobley have been bailing them out. So one of you has to be completely wrong or both only half-right?

In those previous seasons you're describing? You're 100% right about all three players. But this season? They've definitely turned a corner. My theory is that for Garland and Levert, they gained a lot of confidence when the team acquired Mitchell about their chances to make a legitimate playoff run, so they're putting in the effort in the areas that are needed in order to win.

As for Mitchell, I just think he's a lot happier in Cleveland than in Utah. And he's putting in a lot more effort out there than ever before. I'm happy for the guy.

There are some things I don't always agree with Yoyoboy on. This just so happens to be one of them. I think we have much better defenders than he's giving us credit for. But we can't understate the importance of the defensive impact that Allen and Mobley bring.

[cam24thomas]

KD should be a LOCK for All-Defensive Team!

Overall, Durant is holding opponents to 39.5% when contesting their shot. That ranks third among the 71 players to contest 300 shots, per Second Spectrum, but he does his best work closer to the basket.
So far this season, 30 NBA defenders have contested at least 200 shots in the paint. Among that group, Durant has allowed the lowest field goal percentage -- opponents are converting just 45.8% of their paint shots in those situations.
https://www.espn.com.au/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

[TheLand13]

KD should be a LOCK for All-Defensive Team!

Overall, Durant is holding opponents to 39.5% when contesting their shot. That ranks third among the 71 players to contest 300 shots, per Second Spectrum, but he does his best work closer to the basket.
So far this season, 30 NBA defenders have contested at least 200 shots in the paint. Among that group, Durant has allowed the lowest field goal percentage -- opponents are converting just 45.8% of their paint shots in those situations.
https://www.espn.com.au/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

A lock? No. Durant's not going to keep up this level of defensive play. But I will say that this is the best he's looked at that end since 2017, a year where I felt like he had a realistic chance of making the all defensive team.

[Decipher]

Healthy Simmons is the best defender in the NBA & I don't think that it's all that close atm

Hasn't done anywhere near enough to be in consideration as he was putrid until recently but shutting down Giannis & Donovan is seriously impressive

[eyeatoma]

KD should be a LOCK for All-Defensive Team!

Overall, Durant is holding opponents to 39.5% when contesting their shot. That ranks third among the 71 players to contest 300 shots, per Second Spectrum, but he does his best work closer to the basket.
So far this season, 30 NBA defenders have contested at least 200 shots in the paint. Among that group, Durant has allowed the lowest field goal percentage -- opponents are converting just 45.8% of their paint shots in those situations.
https://www.espn.com.au/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

Your avatar is creeping me out.

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[cam24thomas]

Your avatar is creeping me out.

That's strange.

Healthy Simmons is the best defender in the NBA & I don't think that it's all that close atm

Hasn't done anywhere near enough to be in consideration as he was putrid until recently but shutting down Giannis & Donovan is seriously impressive

Yup will probably be penalized for the slow start, and be put into the 2nd Team All-Defensive instead of the 1st or DPOY award (which I thought he deserved in 2020-21 over Rudy).

[eyeatoma]

Your avatar is creeping me out.

That's strange.

That's basically a softcore NSFW picture.

Also I'm concerned about your obsession with him. For you to take the time to write that message on your arms, that's creepy lol. Anyways, you do you, glad you have someone to fantasize about. Just think you should go live your life.

[cupcakesnake]

KD should be a LOCK for All-Defensive Team!

Overall, Durant is holding opponents to 39.5% when contesting their shot. That ranks third among the 71 players to contest 300 shots, per Second Spectrum, but he does his best work closer to the basket.
So far this season, 30 NBA defenders have contested at least 200 shots in the paint. Among that group, Durant has allowed the lowest field goal percentage -- opponents are converting just 45.8% of their paint shots in those situations.
https://www.espn.com.au/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

A lock? No. Durant's not going to keep up this level of defensive play. But I will say that this is the best he's looked at that end since 2017, a year where I felt like he had a realistic chance of making the all defensive team.

Agree that he's not a lock but that he definitely deserves props for his defensive focus this year.
He's always been a physically blessed defender (crazy length with good footspeed relative to his size), but he's rarely been focused or "good" at defense in his career. He was fun in Golden State as part of an elite defense when he could be an extra rim protector, play small ball center next to Draymond, and show up some switchability when they went to the death lineup. But he wasn't the guy there doing the heavy lifting. It was more of a bonus when KD locked in on defense.

But there's a noticeable focus he has this year (so far), and it's on the list of reasons why Brooklyn has been able to weather all their garbage.

[Exp0sed]

KD should be a LOCK for All-Defensive Team!

Overall, Durant is holding opponents to 39.5% when contesting their shot. That ranks third among the 71 players to contest 300 shots, per Second Spectrum, but he does his best work closer to the basket.
So far this season, 30 NBA defenders have contested at least 200 shots in the paint. Among that group, Durant has allowed the lowest field goal percentage -- opponents are converting just 45.8% of their paint shots in those situations.
https://www.espn.com.au/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

A lock? No. Durant's not going to keep up this level of defensive play. But I will say that this is the best he's looked at that end since 2017, a year where I felt like he had a realistic chance of making the all defensive team.

Agree that he's not a lock but that he definitely deserves props for his defensive focus this year.
He's always been a physically blessed defender (crazy length with good footspeed relative to his size), but he's rarely been focused or "good" at defense in his career. He was fun in Golden State as part of an elite defense when he could be an extra rim protector, play small ball center next to Draymond, and show up some switchability when they went to the death lineup. But he wasn't the guy there doing the heavy lifting. It was more of a bonus when KD locked in on defense.

But there's a noticeable focus he has this year (so far), and it's on the list of reasons why Brooklyn has been able to weather all their garbage.

KD turning back the clock defensively is incredible to see and good on him
doing what's he's doing after his injury and at his age while being the primary scorer as his usual uber efficienct self is remarkable
but he isnt close to the tier of DPOY \ All defense and shouldn't be in the conversation

edit: it's be ridicilous to give defensive accolades to guys who aren't even the best defender on their own team

Durant has been the 3rd best defender on the Nets this season

he def deserves props as i've already said but all-defense? that's a conversation he shouldn't be in

[TheLand13]

edit: it's be ridicilous to give defensive accolades to guys who aren't even the best defender on their own team

So basically like what happened last year?

[Exp0sed]

edit: it's be ridicilous to give defensive accolades to guys who aren't even the best defender on their own team

So basically like what happened last year?

exactly

i was on the camp that though Smart winning it is laughable

[cupcakesnake]

edit: it's be ridicilous to give defensive accolades to guys who aren't even the best defender on their own team

So basically like what happened last year?

exactly

i was on the camp that though Smart winning it is laughable

It happens with MVP often enough when big stars are paired off (Curry and Durant were practically MVP ineligible during their time together), and I think voters are even more confused when it comes to this in the context DPOY.

When Time Lord got injured last year, the media just rallied around Smart's longstanding reputation as a defensive player and defaulted the credit to him. Boston was hilariously tough to parse with 5-6 all-defense level players in their rotation. As Boston continues to climb the defensive rating rankings, I think media will be just as clueless about who to give credit to. Heck I don't know either!

I do think about it a bit for the cases of Lopez and Allen. Not because I doubt their defensive impact in any way, I just know the voters are dumb. A lot of voters would simply rather vote for Giannis than Lopez because he's a sexier, starrier name. This holds true to a much lesser extent for potential Mobley>Allen voters. Milwaukee also has Jrue as so many people's favorite defensive guard.

[eyeatoma]

Embiid leading the league in defensive rating this year.

The top 5 are all defensive studs with Luka being the only outlier in the top 10.

Top 15 also seems to be legit as Tobias Harris is much improved on defense the last two years.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season

For those who says there's a lot of noise, here is how drating is calculated.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_rating#:~:text=The%20formula%20is%3A%20Defensive%20Player,defense%20of%20a%20player's%20teammates.

The formula is: Defensive Player Rating = (Players Steals*Blocks) + Opponents Differential= 1/5 of possessions - Times blown by + Deflections * OAPDW( Official Adjusted Players Defensive Withstand). This stat can't be influenced by the defense of a player's teammates.



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[michaelm]

KD should be a LOCK for All-Defensive Team!

Overall, Durant is holding opponents to 39.5% when contesting their shot. That ranks third among the 71 players to contest 300 shots, per Second Spectrum, but he does his best work closer to the basket.
So far this season, 30 NBA defenders have contested at least 200 shots in the paint. Among that group, Durant has allowed the lowest field goal percentage -- opponents are converting just 45.8% of their paint shots in those situations.
https://www.espn.com.au/nba/insider/story/_/id/35318632/kevin-durant-having-another-mvp-type-season-nets

A lock? No. Durant's not going to keep up this level of defensive play. But I will say that this is the best he's looked at that end since 2017, a year where I felt like he had a realistic chance of making the all defensive team.

Agree that he's not a lock but that he definitely deserves props for his defensive focus this year.
He's always been a physically blessed defender (crazy length with good footspeed relative to his size), but he's rarely been focused or "good" at defense in his career. He was fun in Golden State as part of an elite defense when he could be an extra rim protector, play small ball center next to Draymond, and show up some switchability when they went to the death lineup. But he wasn't the guy there doing the heavy lifting. It was more of a bonus when KD locked in on defense.

But there's a noticeable focus he has this year (so far), and it's on the list of reasons why Brooklyn has been able to weather all their garbage.

If KD is the best defender on a team in the regular season the team is in trouble/there are problems.with coaching as it is imo a misuse of him to have him taking heavy defensive responsibility particularly at center in the regular season cf 2019. It is a huge bonus he can be effective defensively at center in the play-offs

[Exp0sed]

Embiid leading the league in defensive rating this year.

The top 5 are all defensive studs with Luka being the only outlier in the top 10.

Top 15 also seems to be legit as Tobias Harris is much improved on defense the last two years.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season

For those who says there's a lot of noise, here is how drating is calculated.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_rating#:~:text=The%20formula%20is%3A%20Defensive%20Player,defense%20of%20a%20player's%20teammates.

The formula is: Defensive Player Rating = (Players Steals*Blocks) + Opponents Differential= 1/5 of possessions - Times blown by + Deflections * OAPDW( Official Adjusted Players Defensive Withstand). This stat can't be influenced by the defense of a player's teammates.



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lol Embiid got cooked tonight

If this was a Jokic game you would start a thread about how such defense can't result in wins

in this clip, just a partial selection of some of those plays
Embiid being utterly useless in the drop coverage (like I said, if these were Jokic plays you'd be making a thread )

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=NBA

Embiid is basically standing, not even moving his feet in most of these
not anticipating the next play, directing his teammates or any of the things you'd expect a DPOY candidate to do
in the other half he's too slow (and lacks the stamina) to even get back to defense in time

and had to find this Alvarado gem

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=Xj9VppD9w1U2rjTfJ9jCWw

Wish I had access to all the plays, this one was just symbolic because it shows Embiid biggest weakness on defense - his focus and poor decision making, thinking too slow

there were alot more

moreover, for a huge man playing big mins he's barely taking down rebounds, his Dreb% is the lowest of his career and so are his Drebs. He is also tying his career low in Blocks despite playing career high mins


Embiid's defensive highlights are beautifull, too bad he can't sustain that level and takes so many play off or just makes poor decisions, low motor defensively and that's just when he manages to sprint back in time:)

there's more to life thatn Drtg, watch the games!