NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[maxwellcu]

The use of % FG assisted stat is meaningful for players like prime DAJ and 3-and-D types but it seems silly to try to extract anything meaningful from it when comparing obviously heliocentric players.

--- A guy dribbles the air out of the ball before either passing or shooting near the end of the shotclock. There are three possible outcomes here. (1) Guy gets an unassisted bucket, (2) guy gets an assist, or (3) possession ends without team scoring.

--- A guy initiates a series of quick, decisive passes designed to get either his teammates or himself an open shot. There are four possible outcomes here. (1) Guy gets an assist, (2) guy's teammate gets an assist but guy does not, (3) guy gets the ball back and scores an assisted bucket, or (4) possession ends without team scoring.

Who is playing better offense?

[ty 4191]

Sure, but that's why Cs are on the top of TS%. They're shooting easier shots. Jokic is not doing something unprecedented there.

As was previously noted, Jokic's career FG% from 5-10 feet is an (astounding) .572 (1649 FGA).

Since 1996-1997, min 1000 FGA, here are some other leaders among players who were primarily (or exclusively) centers.

-Nikola Jokic: .572
-Jonas Valančiūnas: .499
-Karl-Anthony Towns: .485
-Rik Smits: .479
-Robin Lopez: .476
-Hakeem Olajuwon: .473
-Brook Lopez: .459
-Nikola Vučević: .456
-Yao Ming: .453
-Alonzo Mourning:
-Marc Gasol: .446
-Tim Duncan: .430
-Shaquille O'Neal: .421
-Dikembe Mutombo: .419
-Dwight Howard: .397
-Andre Drummond: .382

(PS: As another frame of reference, Giannis shoots .341 (!!) from 5-10 feet.)

If you look at all players with 1000 FGA from 5-10 feet the past 26 years, this puts Jokic's Z Score at +4.2 (standard deviations above the mean). That is 99.973rd percentile!!

As a frame of reference, Wilt scored 40.6 PPG from 1959-1960 through 1964-1965. Oscar was second with 31.1 ppg. Wilt's Z Score for PPG was "only" 3.09 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 10000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 17 PPG, FWIW.

Rodman's TRB% 1991-1992 through 1997-1998 was a staggering 26.0%. Shawn Kemp was a (very) distant second at 19.0%. Rodman's Z Score was "only" 2.85 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 15000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 11.2% TRB%.

(So, yes... I totally agree with you Bob; Jokic's playmaking and passing are his greatest assets, however, his shooting and shot selection are also unprecedented in modern NBA History.)

PS: Jokic is also third (among all players) since 1996-1997 on FG% from 10-15 feet among all players with 800 FGA. .482 FG%

Notables:
Durant: .473
Curry: .470
Nowitzki: .468
Nash: .466
Garnett: .453
Olajuwon: .447
Jordan: .442
Ray Allen: .430
Kobe: .430
Embiid: .423
Duncan: .406
Reggie Miller: .397
Ewing: .396
Karl Malone: .377
Giannis: .373
Shaq: .314 (last, out of 182 players with 800 FGA)

[Bob8]

Sure, but that's why Cs are on the top of TS%. They're shooting easier shots. Jokic is not doing something unprecedented there.

As was previously noted, Jokic's career FG% from 5-10 feet is an (astounding) .572 (1649 FGA).

Since 1996-1997, min 1000 FGA, here are some other leaders among players who were primarily (or exclusively) centers.

-Nikola Jokic: .572
-Jonas Valančiūnas: .499
-Karl-Anthony Towns: .485
-Rik Smits: .479
-Robin Lopez: .476
-Hakeem Olajuwon: .473
-Brook Lopez: .459
-Nikola Vučević: .456
-Yao Ming: .453
-Alonzo Mourning:
-Marc Gasol: .446
-Tim Duncan: .430
-Shaquille O'Neal: .421
-Dikembe Mutombo: .419
-Dwight Howard: .397
-Andre Drummond: .382

(PS: As another frame of reference, Giannis shoots .341 (!!) from 5-10 feet.)

If you look at all players with 1000 FGA from 5-10 feet the past 26 years, this puts Jokic's Z Score at +4.2 (standard deviations above the mean). That is 99.973rd percentile!!

As a frame of reference, Wilt scored 40.6 PPG from 1959-1960 through 1964-1965. Oscar was second with 31.1 ppg. Wilt's Z Score for PPG was "only" 3.09 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 10000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 17 PPG, FWIW.

Rodman's TRB% 1991-1992 through 1997-1998 was a staggering 26.0%. Shawn Kemp was a (very) distant second at 19.0%. Rodman's Z Score was "only" 2.85 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 15000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 11.2% TRB%.

(So, yes... I totally agree with you Bob; Jokic's playmaking and passing are his greatest assets, however, his shooting and shot selection are also unprecedented in modern NBA History.)

This 5-10 feet shooting might be important to Jokic, but I doubt very much it was for many on that list. Shaq had still better career FG%. You take shots you're capable of doing. Jokic is extremely selective there.

[ty 4191]

This 5-10 feet shooting might be important to Jokic, but I doubt very much it was for many on that list. Shaq had still better career FG%. You take shots you're capable of doing. Jokic is extremely selective there.

Of course Shaq had a higher FG%.

For one, Shaq dunked 20% of the time. Jokic dunks 2.1% of the time.

Shaq took 92.5% of his shots inside 10 feet. 50.9% inside three feet, with an average FG distance of 4.0 feet career. Jokic takes 60.6% of his shots inside 10 feet, 28.5% of his shots inside 3 feet, with an average FG distance of 10.8 feet.

Shaq took 22 threes and 5 were heaves as the buzzer. Jokic has taken 1624 threes in his career.

1. Jokic's shot selectivity is nonpareil in the Databall Era.

2. Jokic's efficiency from 5-10 feet and 5-15 feet is also totally unmatched in the past 26 years.

These are feathers in his cap, brother. Huge ones.

[Bob8]

The use of % FG assisted stat is meaningful for players like prime DAJ and 3-and-D types but it seems silly to try to extract anything meaningful from it when comparing obviously heliocentric players.

--- A guy dribbles the air out of the ball before either passing or shooting near the end of the shotclock. There are three possible outcomes here. (1) Guy gets an unassisted bucket, (2) guy gets an assist, or (3) possession ends without team scoring.

--- A guy initiates a series of quick, decisive passes designed to get either his teammates or himself an open shot. There are four possible outcomes here. (1) Guy gets an assist, (2) guy's teammate gets an assist but guy does not, (3) guy gets the ball back and scores an assisted bucket, or (4) possession ends without team scoring.

Who is playing better offense?

% of shots is going down by distance and type of shots. Pull-ups are less efficient than spot-up shooting. Unassisted 3s are mostly pull-ups. I doubt very much that anyone sane will say that Jokic is better shooter than Curry.

[Bob8]

This 5-10 feet shooting might be important to Jokic, but I doubt very much it was for many on that list. Shaq had still better career FG%. You take shots you're capable of doing. Jokic is extremely selective there.

Of course Shaq had a higher FG%.

For one, Shaq dunked 20% of the time. Jokic dunks 2.1% of the time.

Shaq took 92.5% of his shots inside 10 feet. 50.9% inside three feet, with an average FG distance of 4.0 feet career. Jokic takes 60.6% of his shots inside 10 feet, 28.5% of his shots inside 3 feet, with an average FG distance of 10.8 feet.

Shaq took 22 threes and 5 were heaves as the buzzer. Jokic has taken 1624 threes in his career.

1. Jokic's shot selectivity is nonpareil in the Databall Era.

2. Jokic's efficiency from 5-10 feet and 5-15 feet is also totally unmatched in the past 26 years.

These are feathers in his cap, brother. Huge ones.

And what success has brought Denver Jokic's 5-10 feet shooting? Wouldn't it be better, if he was shooting from elsewhere more and with even higher efficiency? It's nice stats, but I don't believe being the best shooter from 5-15 means anything significant.

[Statlanta]

I personally think Jokic is more likely to pass to a teammate(usually closer to the basket or at the 3 point line) then shoot those inefficient shots that aren't in dunk range. Notice how most of the high percentage guys are guys in this era because of the increased spacing and defenses giving up anything not in the restricted era or at the 3.

That said I think Jokic's touch could rival the 60's and 90's Centers who had to live with small forwards and power forwards in the paint.

[Statlanta]

If Nets finish #1 is KD definitely the MVP?

No

[BelgradeNugget]

It was widely considered that Murray was the star of that series. Not Jokic.

And no, you are wrong. Murray had 50 points twice against the Jazz, as well as another 40 points against the Jazz.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jamal-murray-bubble-stats

Murray was great in Utah series and carried Jokic to 2nd round, Jokic didn't do anything special in that series except...

averaged 26.3/8.1/5.4 on 52/49/85 shooting splits. 49% from 3 on 6.6 FGA was important to keep Gobert out of paint so Nuggets guards could penetrate and score at the rim without help defense. In Nuggets game 7 win, Jazz as a team shot 38%, Nuggets outside of Jokic scored 50pts on 32%, Jokic scored 30pts at 53% . It was 38% of Nuggets points. Oh, yes he also scored series winning shot.

In second round against LA Clippers Jokic led both teams in pts, rebs, ast, blk, fg%.

So, again what were you talking about?

26/8/5 are all star numbers. They pale in comparison to what he has done in the regular season the last three years.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

2019-20
RS 20/10/7 on 53/31/82 shooting splits.
PO 24/10/6 on 52/43/84 shooting splits.

2020-21
RS 26/11/8 on 57/39/87 shooting splits.
PO 30/12/5 on on 51/38/84 shooting splits.

2021-22
RS 27/14/8 on 58/34/81 shooting splits.
PO 31/13/6 on on 58/28/85 shooting splits.

Is hitting series winning shot against Utah something special?

[Cubbies2120]

Sure, but that's why Cs are on the top of TS%. They're shooting easier shots. Jokic is not doing something unprecedented there.

As was previously noted, Jokic's career FG% from 5-10 feet is an (astounding) .572 (1649 FGA).

Since 1996-1997, min 1000 FGA, here are some other leaders among players who were primarily (or exclusively) centers.

-Nikola Jokic: .572
-Jonas Valančiūnas: .499
-Karl-Anthony Towns: .485
-Rik Smits: .479
-Robin Lopez: .476
-Hakeem Olajuwon: .473
-Brook Lopez: .459
-Nikola Vučević: .456
-Yao Ming: .453
-Alonzo Mourning:
-Marc Gasol: .446
-Tim Duncan: .430
-Shaquille O'Neal: .421
-Dikembe Mutombo: .419
-Dwight Howard: .397
-Andre Drummond: .382

(PS: As another frame of reference, Giannis shoots .341 (!!) from 5-10 feet.)

If you look at all players with 1000 FGA from 5-10 feet the past 26 years, this puts Jokic's Z Score at +4.2 (standard deviations above the mean). That is 99.973rd percentile!!

As a frame of reference, Wilt scored 40.6 PPG from 1959-1960 through 1964-1965. Oscar was second with 31.1 ppg. Wilt's Z Score for PPG was "only" 3.09 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 10000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 17 PPG, FWIW.

Rodman's TRB% 1991-1992 through 1997-1998 was a staggering 26.0%. Shawn Kemp was a (very) distant second at 19.0%. Rodman's Z Score was "only" 2.85 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 15000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 11.2% TRB%.

(So, yes... I totally agree with you Bob; Jokic's playmaking and passing are his greatest assets, however, his shooting and shot selection are also unprecedented in modern NBA History.)

This 5-10 feet shooting might be important to Jokic, but I doubt very much it was for many on that list. Shaq had still better career FG%. You take shots you're capable of doing. Jokic is extremely selective there.

So you're telling me...he's doing what any great player should be doing and...taking great shots?! Boy I wish more greats had that attitude instead of taking bad shots to pad stats, they take great shots at a lower clip to help their team win...wow, what a novel concept!

[Cubbies2120]

This 5-10 feet shooting might be important to Jokic, but I doubt very much it was for many on that list. Shaq had still better career FG%. You take shots you're capable of doing. Jokic is extremely selective there.

Of course Shaq had a higher FG%.

For one, Shaq dunked 20% of the time. Jokic dunks 2.1% of the time.

Shaq took 92.5% of his shots inside 10 feet. 50.9% inside three feet, with an average FG distance of 4.0 feet career. Jokic takes 60.6% of his shots inside 10 feet, 28.5% of his shots inside 3 feet, with an average FG distance of 10.8 feet.

Shaq took 22 threes and 5 were heaves as the buzzer. Jokic has taken 1624 threes in his career.

1. Jokic's shot selectivity is nonpareil in the Databall Era.

2. Jokic's efficiency from 5-10 feet and 5-15 feet is also totally unmatched in the past 26 years.

These are feathers in his cap, brother. Huge ones.

And what success has brought Denver Jokic's 5-10 feet shooting? Wouldn't it be better, if he was shooting from elsewhere more and with even higher efficiency? It's nice stats, but I don't believe being the best shooter from 5-15 means anything significant.

Wouldn't it be better if he was shooting elsewhere with even higher efficiency? So better than GOAT efficiency from there, you want him to shoot from further out and shoot at even higher efficiency?

While you're making outlandish requests, wouldn't it be nice if Doncic averaged 50 on above average efficiency? His current 33 is nice but I don't think it means anything significant

"Yeah I know he's putting up GOAT efficiency numbers...but wouldn't it be nice if he did even better?"...Jokic got y'all going crazy

[bradybunch]

This 5-10 feet shooting might be important to Jokic, but I doubt very much it was for many on that list. Shaq had still better career FG%. You take shots you're capable of doing. Jokic is extremely selective there.

Of course Shaq had a higher FG%.

For one, Shaq dunked 20% of the time. Jokic dunks 2.1% of the time.

Shaq took 92.5% of his shots inside 10 feet. 50.9% inside three feet, with an average FG distance of 4.0 feet career. Jokic takes 60.6% of his shots inside 10 feet, 28.5% of his shots inside 3 feet, with an average FG distance of 10.8 feet.

Shaq took 22 threes and 5 were heaves as the buzzer. Jokic has taken 1624 threes in his career.

1. Jokic's shot selectivity is nonpareil in the Databall Era.

2. Jokic's efficiency from 5-10 feet and 5-15 feet is also totally unmatched in the past 26 years.

These are feathers in his cap, brother. Huge ones.

And what success has brought Denver Jokic's 5-10 feet shooting? Wouldn't it be better, if he was shooting from elsewhere more and with even higher efficiency? It's nice stats, but I don't believe being the best shooter from 5-15 means anything significant.

Put a Kobe on his team and find out.

Oh wait, Kobe went back to back with a similar style player in Pau Gasol. (And Jokic is far better than Pau)

[Exp0sed]

.

And what success has brought Denver Jokic's 5-10 feet shooting? Wouldn't it be better, if he was shooting from elsewhere more and with even higher efficiency? It's nice stats, but I don't believe being the best shooter from 5-15 means anything significant.

that depends what comes in place of those "worse shots" he's not taking:
if he doesn't take a shot that he would make at say at a 45% clip and that same play turns into a layup for AG with 70% to go in - then he made the right decision not taking the mediocre shot

if it ends up in a TO, or in a worse shot for his team (or himself) then the +EV play would have been to take that 45% shot when he had it

if he doesn't take a jumper on the catch from the free throw line when he's open (could probably hit 50% on those) but ends up passing to Murray who goes iso dancing with the ball for a low % shot (or TO) then he made the "wrong" decision

his ridicilous impact stats plus win column demonstrates very clearly that he's making great decisions in that regard.
obviously it's far from perfect but it's probably the best decision making in the league

imo that's whats limiting Jokic rn and it's mostly a coaching issue
he most certainly needs to take more shots with the roster he has

but the Nuggets are still daydreaming about Murray and MPJ (and other players like Bones etc.) being difference makers in the playoffs or next season etc (dream on, as they say )

obviously would be more wear and tear on Jokic to do this night in and night out but I think he should def up his volume (somewhat) - it will only be for the betterment of the team even, despite lowering his fg% a bit

to clarify, i'm 100% certain he is not doing it to protect his fg% lol, he's doing it cuz he thinks it's the best way to win and to include his teammates but i'm not sure that's the case

The Nuggets are still consistently bad when Jokic is off the court and when he is on but they are not playing thru him - they're just as bad but with an awesome rebounding presence to save some of those terrible possesions, or to bail them out late in the clock with some weirdly effective Sombor Shuffle

much like Luka in Dallas, if he takes on less the Mavs fall apart

I think he needs to take a bit more on himself for Denver to be really dangerous, not to reach Luka levels but not that far from it either

that is, until he gets some actual complimentary star\s and a decent rotation\bench

[ty 4191]

Sure he wasn't carried, but without Murray they're not making the WCF. Jokic played well, but did not have career defining moments in the bubble. People thought Murray broke out and was the next star gaurd with his performance.

I just think it's amusing that people like to compare Embiid to Jokic and bring up playoff record when Embiid had his sidekick shrivel up in the Atlanta series when they had the series in the bag. Choking the series away. Dont even get my started with Doc.

He also made game 7 of the ecsf with Kawhi hitting a miracle shot. Last year he was hobbled with two freak injuries yet played through it like an iron man with people concerned about whether he was going to do permanent damage to himself.

It's far closer in the playoffs then people think.

No, it isn't. You have no idea what you're talking about and are just spitballing.

Embiid has had a much better second star/option in the playoffs than Jokic ever had, and yet Jokic (still) has gone deeper.

Here's proof of who had the better teammate/second option:

The TOP netrtg (PO) for the best duos (minimum 500min)

1. Curry/Durant (17-19) 1293min +14.82
2. Embiid/Simmons (18-21) 795min +14.42
3. Lebron/Davis (20-23) 672min +12.88
4. Curry/Green (13-23) 3904min +10.40
5. Lebron/Irving (15-17) 1657min +10.40
6. Kawhi/Lowry (19) 780min 10.23min
7. Duncan/Kawhi (12-16) 1976min +9.11
8. Duncan/Ginobili (03-16) 4139min +8.94
9. Harden/Paul (18-19) 654min +8.73
10. O'Neal/Kobe (01-04) 2609min +8.22
11. Billups/Ben (03-06) 2610min +8.08
12. George/West (12-15) 1574min +7.09
13. Billups/Rasheed (04-09) 2932min +6.70
14. Carmelo/Billups (09-10) 709min +6.01
15. Giannis/Middleton (14-23) 1907min +5.65
16. Garnett/Pierce (08-13) 2589min +5.60
17. Durant/Westbrook (09-16) 2919min +4.88
18. Kobe/Gasol (08-14) 3094min +4.82
19. Lebron/Wade (11-14) 2754min +4.74
20. Butler/Adebayo (20-23) 1152min +4.53
21. Booker/Paul (21-23) 827min +4.32
22. Wade/O"Neal (05-08) 1094min +4.13
23. Webber/Stojakovic (01-04) 1205min +4.10
24. Kidd/Martin (02-04) 1815min +4.00
25. Howard/Lewis (08-10) 1532min +3.91
26. Tatum/Brown (18-23) 1912min +3.68
27. Nash/Amare (05-10) 1490min +3.47
28. Gasol/Conley (09-19) 1810min +3.40
29. Wall/Beal (13-19) 1215min +2.56
30. Pierce/Walker (01-05) 1247min +2.48
31. Jokic/Murray (19-22) 1066min +2.48
32. Rose/Noah (09-16) 1272min +2.12
33. James/Ilgauskas (04-10) 1739min +1.39
34. Kidd/Carter (05-07) 988min +1.34
35. Kawhi/George (20-23) 748min +1.32
36. Arenas/Jamison (05-09) 683min +1.23
37. Paul/Griffin (12-17) 1499min +1.03
38. Dirk/Nash (01-04) 1381min -0.24
39. Iverson/Mutombo (01-02) 1086min -0.30
40. Gobert/Mitchell (19-22) 790min -0.32
41. Deron/Boozer (06-10) 1509min -2.82
42. Howard/Turkoglu (05-12) 1432min -2.83
43. Paul/West (06-11) 627min -2.99
44. Lowry/Derozan (13-18) 1452min -3.00
45. Harden/Howard (14-16) 781min -3.74
46. Lillard/McCollum (14-21) 1607min -4.18
47. Johnsons/Horford (08-12) 1363min -7.42

And, who had better teammates in the playoffs, overall, since they both started playing in PO rounds?

WS/48, Min 500 MP (.100 is an average player):

Nuggets
Jokic: .205
Murray: .152
Morris: .087
Porter, Jr: .077
Millsap: .071
Craig: .071
Harris: .059
Grant: .033
Barton: -.005

Sixers:
Simmons: .167
Embiid: .155
Maxey: .128
Harris: .117
Green: .085

Jokic's teammates in the playoffs have been ABSOLUTE trash, overall, compared to Embiid's in their careers.

[BoatsNZones]

Murray is definitely starting to come around for them. From a burst standpoint he’s looked very similar to his old self in the last month, and his stats have come along in that span as well. With MPJ back in the lineup again this past week, they’re a potentially very dangerous team again. I could definitely see them holding into a top 2 seed in the West, and at this rate that would leave the major element holding Jokic back from another MVP being voters who simply won’t vote for him 3 years in a row. Which will of course be a thing.

[ty 4191]

Murray is definitely starting to come around for them. From a burst standpoint he’s looked very similar to his old self in the last month, and his stats have come along in that span as well. With MPJ back in the lineup again this past week, they’re a potentially very dangerous team again. I could definitely see them holding into a top 2 seed in the West, and at this rate that would leave the major element holding Jokic back from another MVP being voters who simply won’t vote for him 3 years in a row. Which will of course be a thing.

Everyone cited voter fatigue last year, and, it didn't happen. Everyone cited team record (6th seed) as a major detraction also, and that didn't stop the voters either.

The guy is totally dominating the NBA, and, is even better than he was last year.

If he keeps this up, or pretty close to it, he will win MVP again.

[liquidswords]

To me, it seems like we are straying away from "best player on best team" which has always been a stupid argument for MVP. Even if the Nuggets finish with the #1 seed in the West, what Jokic is doing is unprecedented even by his standards. That alone, makes him worthy of MVP. Forget that he's been multi-MVP before. We need to just look at the current season alone.

[Duke4life831]

I mean are we really bringing up assisted FG rate and easier shot selection as a negative for Jokic? Have we really hit this level? haha.

I actually think assisted FG rate can be a pretty useful tool, hell one that I dont think gets talked about enough. But with that said, I think there is still context needed for it. There are some players like a MPJ who is really bad at creating his own shot and assisted FG rate is a solid stat to view that. I also think it goes the opposite way, some players are much better at getting their rhythm and shooting off of their own creation vs more of a catch and shoot opportunity. Again useful tool to kind of view that.

But again its not just a blanket stat. You still need to watch the games to get the full context of it. So the question then comes with Jokic, is his 59% assisted FG rate because he lacks the ability to create his own shot at a high level? Or is it because of the offense they run? I dont think anyone is going to watch Jokic and come away thinking "he does kind of struggle to create his own shot." No its that high because the ball rarely sticks in his hand long enough where someone else wont be credited with an assist.

Then when it comes to him shooting easier shots. Well ya that should be a massive positive, that is kind of the name of the game for offense, get the easiest shots possible. And again this isnt like a Deandre Jordan situation where he only has a high TS% because all his shots are dunks. He is shooting elite from every area except for the 3.

[BoatsNZones]

Murray is definitely starting to come around for them. From a burst standpoint he’s looked very similar to his old self in the last month, and his stats have come along in that span as well. With MPJ back in the lineup again this past week, they’re a potentially very dangerous team again. I could definitely see them holding into a top 2 seed in the West, and at this rate that would leave the major element holding Jokic back from another MVP being voters who simply won’t vote for him 3 years in a row. Which will of course be a thing.

Everyone cited voter fatigue last year, and, it didn't happen. Everyone cited team record (6th seed) as a major detraction also, and that didn't stop the voters either.

The guy is totally dominating the NBA, and, is even better than he was last year.

If he keeps this up, or pretty close to it, he will win MVP again.

2 MVPs in a row is common enough. 3 in a row - especially with no notable playoff run - is an entirely different beast. Last season there were also no other great candidates so he was able to steal it with his elite play despite the low seeding. That is not the case this year, so it's good for his fans that they have the seeding narrative right now as well.

There WILL be pushback this season, but as of this moment he would get my vote.

[eyeatoma]

Sure he wasn't carried, but without Murray they're not making the WCF. Jokic played well, but did not have career defining moments in the bubble. People thought Murray broke out and was the next star gaurd with his performance.

I just think it's amusing that people like to compare Embiid to Jokic and bring up playoff record when Embiid had his sidekick shrivel up in the Atlanta series when they had the series in the bag. Choking the series away. Dont even get my started with Doc.

He also made game 7 of the ecsf with Kawhi hitting a miracle shot. Last year he was hobbled with two freak injuries yet played through it like an iron man with people concerned about whether he was going to do permanent damage to himself.

It's far closer in the playoffs then people think.

No, it isn't. You have no idea what you're talking about and are just spitballing.

Embiid has had a much better second star/option in the playoffs than Jokic ever had, and yet Jokic (still) has gone deeper.

Here's proof of who had the better teammate/second option:

The TOP netrtg (PO) for the best duos (minimum 500min)

1. Curry/Durant (17-19) 1293min +14.82
2. Embiid/Simmons (18-21) 795min +14.42
3. Lebron/Davis (20-23) 672min +12.88
4. Curry/Green (13-23) 3904min +10.40
5. Lebron/Irving (15-17) 1657min +10.40
6. Kawhi/Lowry (19) 780min 10.23min
7. Duncan/Kawhi (12-16) 1976min +9.11
8. Duncan/Ginobili (03-16) 4139min +8.94
9. Harden/Paul (18-19) 654min +8.73
10. O'Neal/Kobe (01-04) 2609min +8.22
11. Billups/Ben (03-06) 2610min +8.08
12. George/West (12-15) 1574min +7.09
13. Billups/Rasheed (04-09) 2932min +6.70
14. Carmelo/Billups (09-10) 709min +6.01
15. Giannis/Middleton (14-23) 1907min +5.65
16. Garnett/Pierce (08-13) 2589min +5.60
17. Durant/Westbrook (09-16) 2919min +4.88
18. Kobe/Gasol (08-14) 3094min +4.82
19. Lebron/Wade (11-14) 2754min +4.74
20. Butler/Adebayo (20-23) 1152min +4.53
21. Booker/Paul (21-23) 827min +4.32
22. Wade/O"Neal (05-08) 1094min +4.13
23. Webber/Stojakovic (01-04) 1205min +4.10
24. Kidd/Martin (02-04) 1815min +4.00
25. Howard/Lewis (08-10) 1532min +3.91
26. Tatum/Brown (18-23) 1912min +3.68
27. Nash/Amare (05-10) 1490min +3.47
28. Gasol/Conley (09-19) 1810min +3.40
29. Wall/Beal (13-19) 1215min +2.56
30. Pierce/Walker (01-05) 1247min +2.48
31. Jokic/Murray (19-22) 1066min +2.48
32. Rose/Noah (09-16) 1272min +2.12
33. James/Ilgauskas (04-10) 1739min +1.39
34. Kidd/Carter (05-07) 988min +1.34
35. Kawhi/George (20-23) 748min +1.32
36. Arenas/Jamison (05-09) 683min +1.23
37. Paul/Griffin (12-17) 1499min +1.03
38. Dirk/Nash (01-04) 1381min -0.24
39. Iverson/Mutombo (01-02) 1086min -0.30
40. Gobert/Mitchell (19-22) 790min -0.32
41. Deron/Boozer (06-10) 1509min -2.82
42. Howard/Turkoglu (05-12) 1432min -2.83
43. Paul/West (06-11) 627min -2.99
44. Lowry/Derozan (13-18) 1452min -3.00
45. Harden/Howard (14-16) 781min -3.74
46. Lillard/McCollum (14-21) 1607min -4.18
47. Johnsons/Horford (08-12) 1363min -7.42

And, who had better teammates in the playoffs, overall, since they both started playing in PO rounds?

WS/48, Min 500 MP (.100 is an average player):

Nuggets
Jokic: .205
Murray: .152
Morris: .087
Porter, Jr: .077
Millsap: .071
Craig: .071
Harris: .059
Grant: .033
Barton: -.005

Sixers:
Simmons: .167
Embiid: .155
Maxey: .128
Harris: .117
Green: .085

Jokic's teammates in the playoffs have been ABSOLUTE trash, overall, compared to Embiid's in their careers.

I'm not talking about their teammates.. I'm talking about how close Embiid was to the ECF. And Jokic getting to the WCF with Murray performing the way he did isn't all that impressive.

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