Are the current TOP30 best international players a better than NBA's TOP30 all-time best retired foreign players?

[cupcakesnake]

Hakeem is a top 10 all-time player. Dirk is top 20 and Nash is top 30. Manu doesn't go super high on rankings due to his minutes (and late start on an NBA career) but we all know Manu is a bad man who can go toe-to-toe with anyone ever. The Gasols and Mutombo are top 100 locks to me. A bunch of other guys here make lots of top 100 lists (Petrovic, Parker, Horford). A huge glut of non-top 100 guys that don't make lists for reasons similar to Manu: Boris Diaw, Scola, Kirilenko.

It's hard to compare current players who we don't know what the second half or final third of their career is going to look like. But right now, Giannis and Luka are on a trajectory to fight their way into the top 10. Jokic is threatening to win his 3rd straight MVP and is already in offensive GOAT conversations. Embiid (if he can have a healthy late career) could end up the biggest combination of defense and scoring since Wilt Chamberlain. Gobert peaked as the greatest defensive center of his era. Siakam is still carving out a hell of a career. Shai is just getting started.

I think there's a very good chance that this crop on international guys eclipses the last, with 1-2 top 10 guys, and 4 total guys in the top 30. 4 guys who have a very real chance to be better than Nash imo (and I'm an absolute Steve Nash stan). The retired boys are still better but only because their careers are done and their resumes complete.

[KGtabake]

It will favour the alltimers until the current players reach their peak or even their twilight.
Right now, how can you say that Banchero for example deserves to be placed on such lists? Based on 30 games? It's not fair to him.

[CobraCommander]

Shows how weak the Jordan era really was compared to the current NBA but apparently it was like the UFC back then and every player was tough as Iron Mike Tyson or something.

Found the youngster....


MJ had to deal with magic, bird, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Barkley, Kobe, Malone & Stockton, etc etc etc....the difference between now and then is jordan dominated all his peers and it was clear to everyone watching and playing who the best was...right now - Luka and espn saying Giannis, The writers saying Tatum, the purist saying Jokic, tonight we all saying Luka, tomorrow Embiid will drop 55 and we will start this all over....

When MJ played....it was unanimous

MJ had to deal with Kobe and Kareem? Lmao really reaching for straws there buddy. Talking about youngster and posting gifs. MJ never beat Bird or Magic until they were past their prime. Stockton, Malone and Ewing are not top 20 players of all time, they were good for their era because their era sucks.

To your point about Giannis, Jokic and Luka, yes the league has way more top end talent now, glad we agree. MJ dominated a league with much less talent that was watered down by expansion and lacking the foreign stars we have today.

Those guys where in the league when he played so yeah- Kareem was in the league 5 years with MJ and we both know Kobe and MJ were in all star games together- I think the talent was just as high or higher when MJ played but now you can’t even touch Luka or Giannis or any of these guys without sending them to the line for FTs which inflates the hell out of their numbers. Hand checking and the hand being part of the ball is gone. Travel by palming the ball with a high dribble and changing direction - gone. It’s easier offensively and much more difficult to defend...hence this years scoring avg this year being 113.5!

I think scoring is easier now because of the rules changes and of course improved training has made players better..... OR do we believe training has less to do with it....Jokic, Luka and Giannis - didn’t have access to the best nba caliber training and they doing ok lol


But either way

In 2022 113.5

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-team-points-per-game-in-season-2022 with the lowest team avg being 103 and the highest being 115 with 5 teams avg that.... 113.5 a game!

In 1996 it was sub 100 ppg
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-team-points-per-game-in-season-1996. With the lowest being 89 Ppg and the highest being 105 (the bulls btw)

I think it’s fair to say everyone can score easier so stats are inflated

Either way I was joking about “finding the kid” (everyone on edge lately and can’t take a joke...online and in person people just as angry but maybe armed) either way it’s all love...

[Wolveswin]

Overall/top to bottom it’s retired for sure. But makes sense, using like 50 NBA years to create that list vs like 12 for current players list.

Who would win in a game? Retired. The fit is just so much better on almost all teams, first team especially.

Top end star talent? Current. If Giannis and Doncic hit their projection wow. And that is belittling player like Embiid (proven) and up and comers just drafted.

[K_chile22]

for all intents and purposes hard to classify players like SGA who played high school and up in u.s. as international players, they are largely devloped domestically. unless intent is weird comparison of their genetic makeup.

Paolo is also American. Not sure he's ever even been to Italy, just has citizenship through his father's ancestry

[UcanUwill]

Nikos Galis was better than most guys on that all time second team. Schmidt is overrated, but he was a superstar. Bodiroga was better than wildcard names. I mean I know this is NBA forum, but title implies best international players, not best international NBA careers.

[UcanUwill]

Found the youngster....


MJ had to deal with magic, bird, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Barkley, Kobe, Malone & Stockton, etc etc etc....the difference between now and then is jordan dominated all his peers and it was clear to everyone watching and playing who the best was...right now - Luka and espn saying Giannis, The writers saying Tatum, the purist saying Jokic, tonight we all saying Luka, tomorrow Embiid will drop 55 and we will start this all over....

When MJ played....it was unanimous

MJ had to deal with Kobe and Kareem? Lmao really reaching for straws there buddy. Talking about youngster and posting gifs. MJ never beat Bird or Magic until they were past their prime. Stockton, Malone and Ewing are not top 20 players of all time, they were good for their era because their era sucks.

To your point about Giannis, Jokic and Luka, yes the league has way more top end talent now, glad we agree. MJ dominated a league with much less talent that was watered down by expansion and lacking the foreign stars we have today.

LOL!!! The same soft foreigners that the league had to change the rules for along with the high schooler/one and done generation so they could succeed in the league without physicality are now the ones saying it's harder to score in friggin FIBA than in the NBA, UNREAL!!

Bird and Magic's teams in the 1980's were light years ahead of the Bulls, let Michael get drafted by a perennial playoff contender in Milwaukee, Dallas, Denver, Phoenix or Portland and see what happens!! He was already the best player in the NBA by 1987 and unlike Magic and Larry only needed 1 all-star level teammate to absolutely demolish the league. Also fun fact Magic was only 31 years old in 1991 and second in MVP voting!!

When did Shaq, Kobe and Duncan start making an impact in the West?!? Oh yeah after the Jazz of Malone/Stockton/Hornacek got literally decrepit heading to their late 30's after blasting the Spurs and Lakers for two straight years in the playoffs. Go ask Shaq and Duncan how much Stockton and Malone sucked Same thing with LeBron, when did he beat Duncan, in 2013?!?

And please give me a break, the top 10 players from 1988 to 1991 (The true Golden Period of the NBA) absolutely dwarf the modern list and Michael was the best player in the toughest era finally winning the title in 1991:

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Drexler
4. Olajuwon
5. Bird
6. Barkley
7. Malone
8. Ewing
9. Robinson
10. Thomas

Compare that to the rule enhanced stat inflated poseurs of today like Jokic, Doncic, Tatum, Embiid etc... and its just no contest.

I am not sure why you are so defensive? LeBron has been clearly best player for more than a decade, and now its not clear who is best player, but that doesnt mean players are worse. There is no doubt rules made offense inflated, but league is clearly the most talented its ever been without a doubt. Put Ewing, Thomas in the league, what are they now? Not superstars is the answer. Have you seen what current players are capable off? Calling current stars poseurs is just sad midlife crisy boomer call for help, mate.

And I am not denying that MJ is GOAT, I think both of you guys made some bad points, but yours is worse.

[El Turco]

Nikos Galis was better than most guys on that all time second team. Schmidt is overrated, but he was a superstar. Bodiroga was better than wildcard names. I mean I know this is NBA forum, but title implies best international players, not best international NBA careers.

galis could never cut it in nba, it clearly says nba's top 30 all time foreign players.

[JohnWillow]

MJ had to deal with Kobe and Kareem? Lmao really reaching for straws there buddy. Talking about youngster and posting gifs. MJ never beat Bird or Magic until they were past their prime. Stockton, Malone and Ewing are not top 20 players of all time, they were good for their era because their era sucks.

To your point about Giannis, Jokic and Luka, yes the league has way more top end talent now, glad we agree. MJ dominated a league with much less talent that was watered down by expansion and lacking the foreign stars we have today.

LOL!!! The same soft foreigners that the league had to change the rules for along with the high schooler/one and done generation so they could succeed in the league without physicality are now the ones saying it's harder to score in friggin FIBA than in the NBA, UNREAL!!

Bird and Magic's teams in the 1980's were light years ahead of the Bulls, let Michael get drafted by a perennial playoff contender in Milwaukee, Dallas, Denver, Phoenix or Portland and see what happens!! He was already the best player in the NBA by 1987 and unlike Magic and Larry only needed 1 all-star level teammate to absolutely demolish the league. Also fun fact Magic was only 31 years old in 1991 and second in MVP voting!!

When did Shaq, Kobe and Duncan start making an impact in the West?!? Oh yeah after the Jazz of Malone/Stockton/Hornacek got literally decrepit heading to their late 30's after blasting the Spurs and Lakers for two straight years in the playoffs. Go ask Shaq and Duncan how much Stockton and Malone sucked Same thing with LeBron, when did he beat Duncan, in 2013?!?

And please give me a break, the top 10 players from 1988 to 1991 (The true Golden Period of the NBA) absolutely dwarf the modern list and Michael was the best player in the toughest era finally winning the title in 1991:

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Drexler
4. Olajuwon
5. Bird
6. Barkley
7. Malone
8. Ewing
9. Robinson
10. Thomas

Compare that to the rule enhanced stat inflated poseurs of today like Jokic, Doncic, Tatum, Embiid etc... and its just no contest.

I am not sure why you are so defensive? LeBron has been clearly best player for more than a decade, and now its not clear who is best player, but that doesnt mean players are worse. There is no doubt rules made offense inflated, but league is clearly the most talented its ever been without a doubt. Put Ewing, Thomas in the league, what are they now? Not superstars is the answer. Have you seen what current players are capable off? Calling current stars poseurs is just sad midlife crisy boomer call for help, mate.

And I am not denying that MJ is GOAT, I think both of you guys made some bad points, but yours is worse.

I get Ewing, but IT? Please explain.

[UcanUwill]

Nikos Galis was better than most guys on that all time second team. Schmidt is overrated, but he was a superstar. Bodiroga was better than wildcard names. I mean I know this is NBA forum, but title implies best international players, not best international NBA careers.

galis could never cut it in nba, it clearly says nba's top 30 all time foreign players.

How in the hell Galis couldnt cut it in the NBA? guy was super strong guard with uncontestable and crazy hang time finishing ability. He is greatest scorer Euro ever.

[El Turco]

Nikos Galis was better than most guys on that all time second team. Schmidt is overrated, but he was a superstar. Bodiroga was better than wildcard names. I mean I know this is NBA forum, but title implies best international players, not best international NBA careers.

galis could never cut it in nba, it clearly says nba's top 30 all time foreign players.

How in the hell Galis couldnt cut it in the NBA? guy was super strong guard with uncontestable and crazy hang time finishing ability. He is greatest scorer Euro ever.

one of many unathletic high scoring euro guards that failed in nba up until mid 2000s. regardless he never played in nba, cut as a 4th round rookie.

[UcanUwill]

galis could never cut it in nba, it clearly says nba's top 30 all time foreign players.

How in the hell Galis couldnt cut it in the NBA? guy was super strong guard with uncontestable and crazy hang time finishing ability. He is greatest scorer Euro ever.

one of many unathletic high scoring euro guards that failed in nba up until mid 2000s. regardless he never played in nba, cut as a 4th round rookie.

How is he unathletic, are you insane? He had best hang time in Euro history, every of his pull up Js were 40 inch vertical leaps, and he was so strong bigger guards where bouncing off him. Out of all surest things in non NBA history, he is easily THE surest thing. This take is right up there with Luka is slow and wont do d*** against NBA defenses lol, but even Luka wasnt nearly as sure a thing as Galis.

''Unathletic''

[El Turco]

right such a sure prospect passed over for 100 picks and ended up with 0 minutes played in the league

[UcanUwill]

I get Ewing, but IT? Please explain.

IT was great, but I don't know, I never was overly impressed, DO you think he could be superstar today, Game has very few superstars guards as we speak, but still some of the guys and what they can do is insane, even second tier guys like Kyrie, Booker, Lillard. I am not saying IT is worse than them, but none of them are really superstars, ultimately they are background stars.

[UcanUwill]

right such a sure prospect passed over for 100 picks and ended up with 0 minutes played in the league

I am not talking about him as prospect, but what you said doesnt even mean anything. Many greats were overlooked by draft, thats just a sad excuse for an argument.

Many NBA teams wanted to bring him anyway after they saw what hes capable of, at a time Euro signings were non existent in the NBA, but Galis refused, because if he joined NBA, he couldn't have played for Greek National team.

''The only big mistake of my career was not signing Galis in 1979'' - Red Auerbach

[LoveMyRaps]

Foreigners in the past 2 weeks:

Doncic 60-21-10 , 50-8-10
Jokic 41-15-15 , 40-27-10
Embiid 48-10 , 53-12
Giannis 45-14-4 , 42-10
SGA 44-10-6
Sabonis 28-23-7 , 21-20-7
Siakam 52-9-7 , 38-15-6


Looks scary even for 2 seasons' highlights!

SGA North American like drake and Celine dion and Ryan Reynolds -

SGA is Canadian, stop with the Non-American nonsense. Lol.

[El Turco]

right such a sure prospect passed over for 100 picks and ended up with 0 minutes played in the league

I am not talking about him as prospect, but what you said doesnt even mean anything. Many greats were overlooked by draft, thats just a sad excuse for an argument.

Many NBA teams wanted to bring him anyway after they saw what hes capable of, at a time Euro signings were non existent in the NBA, but Galis refused, because if he joined NBA, he couldn't have played for Greek National team.

''The only big mistake of my career was not signing Galis in 1979'' - Red Auerbach

really? how many nba greats dropped to latter rounds of the draft and then got cut in the training camp? if he cared so much about greek national team why did he try out for celtics first place? people will believe in any off color comment and create dumb myths lol

[CobraCommander]

Foreigners in the past 2 weeks:

Doncic 60-21-10 , 50-8-10
Jokic 41-15-15 , 40-27-10
Embiid 48-10 , 53-12
Giannis 45-14-4 , 42-10
SGA 44-10-6
Sabonis 28-23-7 , 21-20-7
Siakam 52-9-7 , 38-15-6


Looks scary even for 2 seasons' highlights!

SGA North American like drake and Celine dion and Ryan Reynolds -

SGA is Canadian, stop with the Non-American nonsense. Lol.

Naw we stealing him - I mean claiming him like all great Ex-Canadians in the past lol

Bro - real real talk- we need to get rid of that northern border for us southern for y’all and team up…. Cause Luka, giannis and jokic own the league… if Banchero is a monster and if VW is anything near what he appears to be…. The NBA is gonna a European league….

What am I saying…. It already is…

When Steph, Lebron and KD age out it’s over

Lol - the curse of the dream teams globalization and the end of the American basketball exceptionalism is upon us… dread lol

Team up on lose too bro - make North America great again in basketball

[UcanUwill]

right such a sure prospect passed over for 100 picks and ended up with 0 minutes played in the league

I am not talking about him as prospect, but what you said doesnt even mean anything. Many greats were overlooked by draft, thats just a sad excuse for an argument.

Many NBA teams wanted to bring him anyway after they saw what hes capable of, at a time Euro signings were non existent in the NBA, but Galis refused, because if he joined NBA, he couldn't have played for Greek National team.

''The only big mistake of my career was not signing Galis in 1979'' - Red Auerbach

really? how many nba greats dropped to latter rounds of the draft and then got cut in the training camp? if he cared so much about greek national team why did he try out for celtics first place? people will believe in any off color comment and create dumb myths lol

When he first try out for the NBA, he was just a young chicken who didnt even knew he would ever play for greek National team. If you really knew anything about Galis game, you would understand your take is really off. Calling him unathletic while in reality he is one of the most athletic small guards ever.

[CobraCommander]

How in the hell Galis couldnt cut it in the NBA? guy was super strong guard with uncontestable and crazy hang time finishing ability. He is greatest scorer Euro ever.

one of many unathletic high scoring euro guards that failed in nba up until mid 2000s. regardless he never played in nba, cut as a 4th round rookie.

How is he unathletic, are you insane? He had best hang time in Euro history, every of his pull up Js were 40 inch vertical leaps, and he was so strong bigger guards where bouncing off him. Out of all surest things in non NBA history, he is easily THE surest thing. This take is right up there with Luka is slow and wont do d*** against NBA defenses lol, but even Luka wasnt nearly as sure a thing as Galis.

''Unathletic''

I’m about to get banned but I can’t help it… I gotta say it- it feels like unathletic is a slick way of saying - “not black”. The rim only 10 feet for everyone

I keep hearing guys that are dunking in traffic and pulling down 20 rebounds and playing 48 minutes a game with high usage and I’m hearing they not athletic and I’m wondering wtf are y’all watching and how are you measuring athleticism.

This ain’t a bench press, dead lift, squat comp so we can see who joins the 1000 pound club or a race to see who fastest in the 40.:. And we don’t have the true measurables on any of the nba players - these are facts…. So why does this keep coming up? Is it to make someone look better or worse?

The point is he was athletic enough to ball at a high level and may have translated to nba if given a chance