NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[eyeatoma]

Two things:

1. Few weeks ago when #1 seed looked out of question, you said Jokic would need #1 seed. Now he needs a SIZEABLE lead at first? Despite his numbers getting even better?

2. In another thread, when Nuggets had same record as Grizzlies, you said they are TIED for first. Now, with same scenario in this MVP thread, Pelicans are > Nuggets for first.

Guess when Nuggets are in 1st with another team they’re either “tied” for first or 2nd seed

I seem to remember the same thing from you two years ago, offering a bunch of mental gymnastics of why Sixers being in first wasn't enough for Embiid to win MVP.

Pot meet kettle.

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So you’re finally admitting you can’t be impartial about Jokic? Perfect, thanks!

Like you can with Embiid lol.

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[juanc]

Jrue
Allen
Middleton(Pat?)
X(Portis)
Lopez

Maxey
Harden
Milton/Tucker
Harris
X

Murray
KCP
MPJ
Gordon
X(Deandre Jordan?)

White/Brogdon
Smart
Brown
X(Williams?)
Horford/TimeLord

X(KEMBA!)
Dinwiddie
THJ
Finney-Smith
Dwight Powell/Wood

The bold names are injured guys

How would you guys rank these supporting casts?

[eyeatoma]

Jrue
Allen
Middleton(Pat?)
X(Portis)
Lopez

Maxey
Harden
Milton/Tucker
Harris
X

Murray
KCP
MPJ
Gordon
X(Deandre Jordan?)

White/Brogdon
Smart
Brown
X(Williams?)
Horford/TimeLord

X(KEMBA!)
Dinwiddie
THJ
Finney-Smith
Dwight Powell/Wood

The bold names are injured guys

How would you guys rank these supporting casts?

Boston 1
Philly 2
Bucks 3
Nuggets 4
Mavs 5

[Sharkboy242]

Luka just has to drag his team to a respectable top 4 position and the MVP is his. Seems like Dallas has the momentum to make it happen.

[eyeatoma]

Luka just has to drag his team to a respectable top 4 position and the MVP is his. Seems like Dallas has the momentum to make it happen.

Yeah could be another Jokic type MVP where he's the only good player and he drags them to respectability.

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[Exp0sed]

Jrue
Allen
Middleton(Pat?)
X(Portis)
Lopez

Maxey
Harden
Milton/Tucker
Harris
X

Murray
KCP
MPJ
Gordon
X(Deandre Jordan?)

White/Brogdon
Smart
Brown
X(Williams?)
Horford/TimeLord

X(KEMBA!)
Dinwiddie
THJ
Finney-Smith
Dwight Powell/Wood

The bold names are injured guys

How would you guys rank these supporting casts?

what's the purpose of this ranking\list?

If Middelton will be out or will play but will be far from his old self, The Bucks won't win enough and Giannis won't dominate enough to be a real MVP candidate, not with the season so many other superstars are having

Tyrese has generaly been healthy and he's expected back as soon as friday's game, why is it significant how this cast is ranked without him when they're gonna be with him?

is that healthy Murray on your list or current Murray?
because current Murray is available (sometimes, when he's not load-managed and eased back in) but he's as good as "injured" \\

DFS is a low end starter and probaby a bench playe for most teams with playoff aspirations (and higher)
he's not a difference maker in anyway, tho it's true that Dallas lacks depth, especially with Maxi out (possibly for the season? long term anyway, you should have listed him haha) and that means that is he valuable in the sense there's no1 really to take his place atm, latest update said he'll be re-evaluated in two weeks

who knows, but my guess he'll be back in action in a couple of weeks

[OxAndFox]

I was thinking the other day how lucky us Kings fans are getting to watch Sabonis each game. Then I thought, how do Nuggets fans feel then!
So it was great to see Jokic the last couple of nights and he didn't disappoint.
30/8/8.5 average
22/34 FGs totals
16/16 FTs totals

All I will say on the MVP discussion is Jokic, Embiid, Luka and obviously, Giannis all have that factor when you play against them, like, how in the hell are we going to stop them? And we need to do so to beat them. Tatum is on that level now IMO as well so count him in this.
So enjoy watching these special players along the way.

[Cubbies2120]

Luka just has to drag his team to a respectable top 4 position and the MVP is his. Seems like Dallas has the momentum to make it happen.

Yeah could be another Jokic type MVP where he's the only good player and he drags them to respectability.

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While setting all-time advanced stats records in the process*

Jokic didn't win it just because he dragged them to respectability - it's because he was 1. The best player in the NBA, 2. Broke advanced stats

[LessEyeTest]

Luka just has to drag his team to a respectable top 4 position and the MVP is his. Seems like Dallas has the momentum to make it happen.

Yeah could be another Jokic type MVP where he's the only good player and he drags them to respectability.

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While setting all-time advanced stats records in the process*

Jokic didn't win it just because he dragged them to respectability - it's because he was 1. The best player in the NBA, 2. Broke advanced stats

You know who you’re talking to, right? That dude won’t rest until a day Embiid actually lives up to his potential and becomes the best center. Which, if we’re honest, he ain’t gonna be unless Jokic retires lol

[cam24thomas]

I think KD has the best narrative, overcoming that huge injury to return to career-best form, plus he's old. Plus he's averaging 30ppg for a team that looks likely to finish #1 in the East easily. What he's doing is more impressive than Doncic, Jokic and anyone else. I bet my arms and legs that KD will win MVP!

[deneem4]

I think KD has the best narrative, overcoming that huge injury to return to career-best form, plus he's old. Plus he's averaging 30ppg for a team that looks likely to finish #1 in the East easily. What he's doing is more impressive than Doncic, Jokic and anyone else. I bet my arms and legs that KD will win MVP!

Zion?

[cam24thomas]

I think KD has the best narrative, overcoming that huge injury to return to career-best form, plus he's old. Plus he's averaging 30ppg for a team that looks likely to finish #1 in the East easily. What he's doing is more impressive than Doncic, Jokic and anyone else. I bet my arms and legs that KD will win MVP!

Zion?

Zion is in his athletic prime, so not as impressive when compared to a 34-year-old playing the best ball of his life
Zion and KD are the same level of dominance, so it'll come down to narrative I think, and KD has it.
Plus the way things are going, I think Nets will win the East by a HUGE margin (plus I heard we've got the 7th easiest schedule for the remaining games of the season, so probably going to have lots of 10-game winning streaks), whereas Pelicans probably won't be far ahead of the rest of the West if at all.

[Exp0sed]

I think KD has the best narrative, overcoming that huge injury to return to career-best form, plus he's old. Plus he's averaging 30ppg for a team that looks likely to finish #1 in the East easily. What he's doing is more impressive than Doncic, Jokic and anyone else. I bet my arms and legs that KD will win MVP!

Durant has been amazing considering his age etc but don't kid urself, his offensive impact on the whole team has been a good tier below Jokic and Luka

there's a clear second tier in Zion, Tatum and Embiid and Durant is firmly in that tier

moreover, Kyrie has been killing it offensively (and in general)

it cannot be understated how Kyrie being an elite 2nd option (and he has this season thus far, no matter how crazy he is or what u think of his antics etc.) - makes life easier for Durant

the same goes for Jaylen Brown and Harden

there is def an argument to be made about Luka and Jokic being that far offensively from the rest of the candidates is in large part due to the weak rosters they are carrying in relation to the others

be that as it may, there aren't many players in NBA history that can produce what they are producing with the teammates they have and the amount of defensive attention they are getting

Kyrie, JB and Harden have all been argubaly top 20 players this season, maybe even higher
since when does that not impact MVP voting?

and no, what he's doing isn't more impressive

but it's damn impressive nonetheless

[Exp0sed]

I think KD has the best narrative, overcoming that huge injury to return to career-best form, plus he's old. Plus he's averaging 30ppg for a team that looks likely to finish #1 in the East easily. What he's doing is more impressive than Doncic, Jokic and anyone else. I bet my arms and legs that KD will win MVP!

Zion?

Zion is in his athletic prime, so not as impressive when compared to a 34-year-old playing the best ball of his life
Zion and KD are the same level of dominance, so it'll come down to narrative I think, and KD has it.
Plus the way things are going, I think Nets will win the East by a HUGE margin (plus I heard we've got the 7th easiest schedule for the remaining games of the season, so probably going to have lots of 10-game winning streaks), whereas Pelicans probably won't be far ahead of the rest of the West if at all.

Zion is still ramping up, don't forget he was out for a while
in his breakout season, he was on a different level. he's just starting to look a bit like that lately
he already flashed that ability when he was younger (in that season) so we know he's capable of it and that was a while ago
he's gaining experience, reps , confidence and growing as a player

Durant is at 100% of what he can possibly give rn and that's an amazing level and very close to Zion, but Zion isn't finished yet haha
I suspect post ASB Zion gonna leave some jaws on the floor health permitting

[Sharkboy242]

yeah im sorry but I just don't get the argument for KD and Tatum.

The stats just aren't there when compared to the likes of someone like Doncic, and to bolster their argument simply because of team record does a disservice to Jaylen Brown and Kyrie Irving.

People will make weird arguments based off precedent or some ****, but first things first: you have to have the best stats. They don't have them. If people with better stats have a much worse team record then okay lets consider them, but that's not the case.

[Woodsanity]

yeah im sorry but I just don't get the argument for KD and Tatum.

The stats just aren't there when compared to the likes of someone like Doncic, and to bolster their argument simply because of team record does a disservice to Jaylen Brown and Kyrie Irving.

People will make weird arguments based off precedent or some ****, but first things first: you have to have the best stats. They don't have them. If people with better stats have a much worse team record then okay lets consider them, but that's not the case.

KD isn't top 3 for me but I rank him higher than Giannis atm. Giannis is having a down season. KD is arguably having a better season with a better record.

[Bob8]

yeah im sorry but I just don't get the argument for KD and Tatum.

The stats just aren't there when compared to the likes of someone like Doncic, and to bolster their argument simply because of team record does a disservice to Jaylen Brown and Kyrie Irving.

People will make weird arguments based off precedent or some ****, but first things first: you have to have the best stats. They don't have them. If people with better stats have a much worse team record then okay lets consider them, but that's not the case.

KD isn't top 3 for me but I rank him higher than Giannis atm. Giannis is having a down season. KD is arguably having a better season with a better record.

Yes, it's just weird how Giannis is for some people still at the top in MVP race.

Here's comparison to Luka,

https://stathead.com/tiny/gnwIU

All advanced stats are a lot worse. Majority of counting stats and efficiency too.

And no he doesn't have substantially better record when playing for Bucks than Luka for Mavs. Giannis is 19/11 and Luka is 19/13. The difference in standings are in games they didn't play. I believe we don't count their cheerleading abilities.

Jokic, Tatum, Luka, Embiid, KD are all better than him.

[Duke4life831]

Here is how I look at it at the moment.

Having legit MVP worthy seasons:
Tatum
KD
Embiid

On any given year if they continue to do what theyve been doing, I would have zero hesitation on any of these guys winning. They check off everything you want in a MVP. As much crap as I (and many give) eyeatoma, on any given season the points he makes about Embiid are all legit (he loses it when he starts saying advanced metrics are fads and stuff). Embiid is having a MVP worthy season. There is just one thing, the next category.

Having statistical anomaly seasons/dragging below average to bad rosters into contention:
Jokic
Luka

These guys numbers just dont make sense. They're legit putting up video game numbers. Also they dont have a supporting cast like they other guys have. The other 3 guys have deep teams and legit all star/all nba caliber #2 options. Jokic's #2 is Aaron Gordon and Luka's is Christian Wood. Yet Jokic has Denver tied for the 1st seed and Dallas is 2 games back from a top 3 seed.

For Jokic to win I think he needs to continue this level of play and get Denver that #1 seed (media narrative wise, I think this will be a huge selling point). For Luka to win I think he needs to continue his play and get a top 3 seed. If both of these guys cant do this, I think it really probably comes down to (assuming they all continue a similar level of play as of right now), who gets the #1 overall seed between BOS/PHI/NETS.

I just think its pretty pointless to try and point out negatives with these 5 guys. They're all elite and they're playing like it. Really wont take much for the dice to fall a certain way to open up their chance to win it.

[Exp0sed]

Here is how I look at it at the moment.

Having legit MVP worthy seasons:
Tatum
KD
Embiid

and those three just happen to have the best three #2 options in the league?
what a glorious coincidence

honoable mention to Cleveland, there's an argument to make there (maybe)
but I don't see any other team whose #2 has been arguably bette this season than those 3, maybe i'm forgetting someone

do they enjoy the extra space etc of having a great number 1? ofc they do

Embiid is taking a ton of shots, getting to the line alot but his rebounds are down despite playing more mins (not even 10 a game for a dude his size who plays 35-36 mins is meh) and he has an AST\TO ratio that's barely positive

yeah, he takes alot of shots and gets to the stripe and converts well from both
he thinks he'll get an MVP if he wins another scoring title i guess

Harden has played just 20 games but still, the Sixers are basically on pace for 50 wins

can u think of a dominant "legit" MVP big man in his prime, who would play beside one of the top 3 #2 options in the league
with guys like Maxey, Harris and Melton at that and only win 50-ish games?

something doesn't add up

Embiid is having a great season, but unless MVP turned into the PPG award - I don't think he's having a legit MVP worthy season

he's not far but he's not there
(regardless of other guys that are better than him)

the league is stacked rn, that needs to be taken into account 50 wins is a mark harder to come by this year compared to an average season but still, gotta say i don't see it

[Jamaaliver]

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