Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash?

[SFour]

US $ from Biden to Ukraine, FTC washes it and sends back to Dem candidates as donations. Zelinsky calls for peace as soon as it is discovered.
wow

Someones been reading too much facebook

there's a lot of corruption in this world...on both sides....at the end of the day it's the average citizen who gets screwed.

[deck]

i am still massive up in crypto like millions. one company going under is just like a monthly event nothing to see here. the smart money is in bitcoin and eth and in cold storage not in some dumb exchange. there has to be dumb money to have smart money altho I did make a **** ton from binance coins an acual exchange thats been around 8 years thats more safe. but if you have alot of your assets ina ponzi sceme exchange you deserve to lose it tbh. I also sold most of my crypto at like 60k 6 months ago this bitcoin downswing has been predicated for a very long time

It is important to understand that the vast majority of blockchain based currencies are zero sum and many are massively negative sum, meaning, if you are up millions, someone else must be down millions. The simple act of mining BTC extracts value from the system in the form of miners converting to cash. This makes BTC at best a greater fool scheme, as it is dependent on an infinite chain of people buying-in in order for the value to go up. As a simple mind experiment to this effect, what do you think would happen if everyone tried to cash out at current BTC valuations? How much of it's $318 billion of current market cap could actually be converted to cash? I suspect not much.

Couldn't you say the same thing about any currency or liquid asset? What would happen to the stock market if everyone sold Tesla at once? What would happen to the banks if everyone went on a bank run?

The difference is that Telsa has income, assets, and the potential to earn future revenue. Bitcoin has none of these things, only the perception of some future value. And an increase in that future value is predicated on someone else buying in at more than you bought in at, which is why by definition, Bitcoin is mathematically a greater fool scheme.

As for the zero-sum comment, money doesn't come out of thin air. For every person that has a dollar, another person or entity is down one dollar.

This is not true.

You are correct that money doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from people expending effort to mine raw materials, manufacture those raw materials into products that can be exchanged for goods, or by providing services that people need. Generally speaking, the economy on a whole is not negative sum, because there is an abundance of materials available, and plenty of services that people can provide that others are willing to pay for. The only utility provided by Bitcoin is the act of mining Bitcoin itself, and the transactions that can be performed as a result. If miners choose to convert that value to a fiat currency so they can... you know... buy stuff, or pay their obscene electricity bills, then Bitcoin becomes a negative sum currency. Because PoW cryptos effectively waste large amounts of electricity to produce something that is not nearly as valuable in real terms (a transaction on chain), PoW cryptos are generally negative sum.

[hype_2004]

I wonder if governments will use these failures to increase regulation and promote CBDC's as a 'safe' alternative.

I think all this Crypto crash is by design, Central Bankers don't want to get rid of crypto they just want a really big piece of that pie that they can control. There's a rumour that the Feds will introduce "Fedcoin" to be that "alternative" to the crypto market, I don't know what their motivations are but it seems subtly nefarious.

[bboyskinnylegs]

I wonder if governments will use these failures to increase regulation and promote CBDC's as a 'safe' alternative.

I think all this Crypto crash is by design, Central Bankers don't want to get rid of crypto they just want a really big piece of that pie that they can control. There's a rumour that the Feds will introduce "Fedcoin" to be that "alternative" to the crypto market, I don't know what their motivations are but it seems subtly nefarious.

there was a 12-week NY Fed CBDC pilot launched two days ago. Aside from the obvious privacy issue of having complete oversight into every transaction made, there are a lot of problems that CBDCs will likely introduce. With programmability, you can have money that expires, limits to how much can be saved within a given time period, reward/punish behaviours based on ESG or other guidelines, really the list of scary possibilities is endless.

It will be framed as the safe, regulated, easy to use alternative to the existing wild west of unregulated centralized exchanges that exist in crypto today.

[brownbobcat]

i am still massive up in crypto like millions. one company going under is just like a monthly event nothing to see here. the smart money is in bitcoin and eth and in cold storage not in some dumb exchange. there has to be dumb money to have smart money altho I did make a **** ton from binance coins an acual exchange thats been around 8 years thats more safe. but if you have alot of your assets ina ponzi sceme exchange you deserve to lose it tbh. I also sold most of my crypto at like 60k 6 months ago this bitcoin downswing has been predicated for a very long time

It is important to understand that the vast majority of blockchain based currencies are zero sum and many are massively negative sum, meaning, if you are up millions, someone else must be down millions. The simple act of mining BTC extracts value from the system in the form of miners converting to cash. This makes BTC at best a greater fool scheme, as it is dependent on an infinite chain of people buying-in in order for the value to go up. As a simple mind experiment to this effect, what do you think would happen if everyone tried to cash out at current BTC valuations? How much of it's $318 billion of current market cap could actually be converted to cash? I suspect not much.

Couldn't you say the same thing about any currency or liquid asset? What would happen to the stock market if everyone sold Tesla at once? What would happen to the banks if everyone went on a bank run?

As for the zero-sum comment, money doesn't come out of thin air. For every person that has a dollar, another person or entity is down one dollar.

Sure it does, how else do you think inflation happens? You're conflating debt (both direct and indirect, e.g. central banking) and money - while there's definitely a large overlap, it's not exactly the same thing. When used as a unit of account, money is representational and not zero-sum. As a medium of exchange and store of value, that's when temporality is introduced.

[KL78192020]

I wonder if governments will use these failures to increase regulation and promote CBDC's as a 'safe' alternative.

I think all this Crypto crash is by design, Central Bankers don't want to get rid of crypto they just want a really big piece of that pie that they can control. There's a rumour that the Feds will introduce "Fedcoin" to be that "alternative" to the crypto market, I don't know what their motivations are but it seems subtly nefarious.

This has nothing to do with any bankers. The whole market is down including stocks due to rising inflation and thus high interest rates. Crytpo apparently was supposed to be the hedge against the regular financial system, clearly its not.

Plus what happened with FTX has nothing to do with the US, its was run out of the Bahamas, thus skirting any US regulation, not that their was much.

[bluerap23]

So is this a good time to buy crypto?

[brownbobcat]

This has nothing to do with any bankers. The whole market is down including stocks due to rising inflation and thus high interest rates. Crytpo apparently was supposed to be the hedge against the regular financial system, clearly its not.

Plus what happened with FTX has nothing to do with the US, its was run out of the Bahamas, thus skirting any US regulation, not that their was much.

The asset bubble and subsequent crash is very clearly related to monetary policy direction from central banks.

[libertyYYZ]

So is this a good time to buy crypto?

Read on Twitter

For those uninitiated in Ponzi scheme mechanics, sustaining a Ponzi requires more money coming in the front door than is being grifted out the back. Read these desperate comments and ask yourself if this is a Ponzi. Get your assets off the exchanges or expect a complete loss.

[DelAbbot]

Read on Twitter

[SharoneWright]

Meh, I have a house, kid, mortgage. I don't love the idea of taking the risk on Crypto.

Me. +2 more kids.

[SharoneWright]

So is this a good time to buy crypto?

Nah. Look at Tesla.

[SharoneWright]

I wonder if governments will use these failures to increase regulation and promote CBDC's as a 'safe' alternative.

I think all this Crypto crash is by design, Central Bankers don't want to get rid of crypto they just want a really big piece of that pie that they can control. There's a rumour that the Feds will introduce "Fedcoin" to be that "alternative" to the crypto market, I don't know what their motivations are but it seems subtly nefarious.

This has nothing to do with any bankers. The whole market is down including stocks due to rising inflation and thus high interest rates. Crytpo apparently was supposed to be the hedge against the regular financial system, clearly its not.

Plus what happened with FTX has nothing to do with the US, its was run out of the Bahamas, thus skirting any US regulation, not that their was much.

Crypto could have been a hedge. (The dollar isn't safe)... but crypto was/is also run by pirates.

[Badonkadonk]

It is important to understand that the vast majority of blockchain based currencies are zero sum and many are massively negative sum, meaning, if you are up millions, someone else must be down millions. The simple act of mining BTC extracts value from the system in the form of miners converting to cash. This makes BTC at best a greater fool scheme, as it is dependent on an infinite chain of people buying-in in order for the value to go up. As a simple mind experiment to this effect, what do you think would happen if everyone tried to cash out at current BTC valuations? How much of it's $318 billion of current market cap could actually be converted to cash? I suspect not much.

Couldn't you say the same thing about any currency or liquid asset? What would happen to the stock market if everyone sold Tesla at once? What would happen to the banks if everyone went on a bank run?

The difference is that Telsa has income, assets, and the potential to earn future revenue. Bitcoin has none of these things, only the perception of some future value. And an increase in that future value is predicated on someone else buying in at more than you bought in at, which is why by definition, Bitcoin is mathematically a greater fool scheme.

As for the zero-sum comment, money doesn't come out of thin air. For every person that has a dollar, another person or entity is down one dollar.

This is not true.

You are correct that money doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from people expending effort to mine raw materials, manufacture those raw materials into products that can be exchanged for goods, or by providing services that people need. Generally speaking, the economy on a whole is not negative sum, because there is an abundance of materials available, and plenty of services that people can provide that others are willing to pay for. The only utility provided by Bitcoin is the act of mining Bitcoin itself, and the transactions that can be performed as a result. If miners choose to convert that value to a fiat currency so they can... you know... buy stuff, or pay their obscene electricity bills, then Bitcoin becomes a negative sum currency. Because PoW cryptos effectively waste large amounts of electricity to produce something that is not nearly as valuable in real terms (a transaction on chain), PoW cryptos are generally negative sum.

Great post.

[Ackshun]

So is this a good time to buy crypto?

Nah. Look at Tesla.

Man, Tesla has just been messing with me since late last week.

Feeling like the resistance is closer to the $102 price than I want to admit.

[V]

Couldn't you say the same thing about any currency or liquid asset? What would happen to the stock market if everyone sold Tesla at once? What would happen to the banks if everyone went on a bank run?

The difference is that Telsa has income, assets, and the potential to earn future revenue. Bitcoin has none of these things, only the perception of some future value. And an increase in that future value is predicated on someone else buying in at more than you bought in at, which is why by definition, Bitcoin is mathematically a greater fool scheme.

As for the zero-sum comment, money doesn't come out of thin air. For every person that has a dollar, another person or entity is down one dollar.

This is not true.

You are correct that money doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from people expending effort to mine raw materials, manufacture those raw materials into products that can be exchanged for goods, or by providing services that people need. Generally speaking, the economy on a whole is not negative sum, because there is an abundance of materials available, and plenty of services that people can provide that others are willing to pay for. The only utility provided by Bitcoin is the act of mining Bitcoin itself, and the transactions that can be performed as a result. If miners choose to convert that value to a fiat currency so they can... you know... buy stuff, or pay their obscene electricity bills, then Bitcoin becomes a negative sum currency. Because PoW cryptos effectively waste large amounts of electricity to produce something that is not nearly as valuable in real terms (a transaction on chain), PoW cryptos are generally negative sum.

Great post.

No its not a good post.

ROI on most PoW asics is about 6 months, and they are not negative sum. You sure say a lot about crypto without really knowing anything about crypto. The idea behind PoW is to find efficiencies in balancing fixed costs in ops. Renewable energy is where this is heading. but but crypto scam scam.

Also bitcoin is accepted all over the world to pay for things that normally you can buy with fiat. but but no one accepts scam coin.

I am not getting into crypto discussion with any of you since its not worth my time. I will leave you with this.. FTX acted as a bank/exchange that lent out depositors funds to Alameda (investment branch) and funded its own investing/sponsorships based on the value of its on FTT token. When the token did not have 1:1 backing with usd (or usdt/busd) that is when things went down hill. Imagine after a bank run your TD bank saying, "we can't provide you with your money because we do not have enough deposits in our vaults". That was what happened with FTX. It went under because it acted in bad faith with its depositors and a bank run occurred.

[ItsDanger]

Crypto market is unregulated. Now, regulations have their own issues but having none makes it fraught with risk. Would you trust me if I walked up to your door asking for cash in exchange for a digital password and account? Of course not.

[refshateRaps]

Buying bundles at these levels...

Sam Bankman Frei-mason & the other triangle hand crew playing out their public rituals to to create hysterics & influence the masses only make it more obvi.

Markets bout to blow upward in 2023. Could be imminent now.

Stay strong to those in the hole & shut off the news

[deck]

The difference is that Telsa has income, assets, and the potential to earn future revenue. Bitcoin has none of these things, only the perception of some future value. And an increase in that future value is predicated on someone else buying in at more than you bought in at, which is why by definition, Bitcoin is mathematically a greater fool scheme.



This is not true.

You are correct that money doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from people expending effort to mine raw materials, manufacture those raw materials into products that can be exchanged for goods, or by providing services that people need. Generally speaking, the economy on a whole is not negative sum, because there is an abundance of materials available, and plenty of services that people can provide that others are willing to pay for. The only utility provided by Bitcoin is the act of mining Bitcoin itself, and the transactions that can be performed as a result. If miners choose to convert that value to a fiat currency so they can... you know... buy stuff, or pay their obscene electricity bills, then Bitcoin becomes a negative sum currency. Because PoW cryptos effectively waste large amounts of electricity to produce something that is not nearly as valuable in real terms (a transaction on chain), PoW cryptos are generally negative sum.

Great post.

No its not a good post.

ROI on most PoW asics is about 6 months, and they are not negative sum. You sure say a lot about crypto without really knowing anything about crypto. The idea behind PoW is to find efficiencies in balancing fixed costs in ops. Renewable energy is where this is heading. but but crypto scam scam.

Also bitcoin is accepted all over the world to pay for things that normally you can buy with fiat. but but no one accepts scam coin.

I am not getting into crypto discussion with any of you since its not worth my time. I will leave you with this.. FTX acted as a bank/exchange that lent out depositors funds to Alameda (investment branch) and funded its own investing/sponsorships based on the value of its on FTT token. When the token did not have 1:1 backing with usd (or usdt/busd) that is when things went down hill. Imagine after a bank run your TD bank saying, "we can't provide you with your money because we do not have enough deposits in our vaults". That was what happened with FTX. It went under because it acted in bad faith with its depositors and a bank run occurred.

You have said a lot here without really saying much of anything.

ROI on most PoW asics is about 6 months, and they are not negative sum.

You misunderstand completely. When I talk about bitcoin being negative sum, I am talking about the currency itself. Nothing to do with the ROI for miners. In fact, I am talking about the opposite. I am talking about the ROI for purchasers or holders of bitcoin. (Who the fk cares about what the miners are making?!?)

I am referring to the fact that when a coin is mined at it's point in time value, some percentage of that coins value must be removed from the currency (and converted to fiat) in order to pay for the costs involved in minting the coin. Core Scientific is going out of business right now because at the current price of bitcoin, they cannot sell the coins at a profit to cover their operating costs. So at approximately $17K, one of the largest crypto mining organizations is struggling to stay profitable. Bitcoin and POW in general are negative sum, because the act of mining bitcoin extracts massive value from the currency back into fiat. In 2021, I believe miners were extracting about $21 billion annually in the form of bitcoin block rewards. People buying bitcoin as an investment are the bag holders for all of this money flowing out of the system.

You sure say a lot about crypto without really knowing anything about crypto.

I only know an average amount about crypto and blockchain. Most of what I am talking about is economics, basic math, and common sense. You can use acronyms like ASIC and say crypto a bunch of times, it really doesn't credentialize yourself at all in this context.

The idea behind PoW is to find efficiencies in balancing fixed costs in ops. Renewable energy is where this is heading. but but crypto scam scam.

You seem to misunderstand a fundamental aspect of POW. As electricity becomes cheaper, or the cost of GPUs or ASICs becomes cheaper, or the any aspect of the 'ops' as you say becomes cheaper, the difficulty of calculating bitcoin hashes goes up. Proof of Work block chains are secured via electrical waste. So when renewable energy becomes more available and electricity becomes cheaper, POW block chains will simply scale to consume more power.

Also bitcoin is accepted all over the world to pay for things that normally you can buy with fiat. but but no one accepts scam coin.

This is a straw-man argument. I don't see anyone here claiming bitcoin isn't used for transactions.

I am not getting into crypto discussion with any of you since its not worth my time. I will leave you with this.. FTX acted as a bank/exchange that lent out depositors funds to Alameda (investment branch) and funded its own investing/sponsorships based on the value of its on FTT token. When the token did not have 1:1 backing with usd (or usdt/busd) that is when things went down hill. Imagine after a bank run your TD bank saying, "we can't provide you with your money because we do not have enough deposits in our vaults". That was what happened with FTX. It went under because it acted in bad faith with its depositors and a bank run occurred.

Thanks... I think we all understand what happened with FTX. It's not that complicated. The question you and anyone else holding bitcoin should be asking is, how prevalent is this practice right now in the industry? How many FTX companies are out there? What percentage of bitcoin value is being propped up by wash trading and synthetic transactions resulting from stable coins? The Tether house of cards is yet to come tumbling down, and it is pretty clear from even a casual investigation that Tether was actively issuing USDT without actual backing. There is an incredible amount of money sloshing around in the crypto space today. The real question is, how much of that value is real, and how much of it is the result of unregulated accounting practices where crypto is bought and sold without any real world, tangible, liquid asset backing the transaction?

Also not really worth my time to get into a debate with someone that can barely put forward a legible post. But I will leave you with this; I believe there is value in blockchain and there are use cases for crypto currency. But the narrative that we will see exponential price growth in crypto is naive, dangerous, and ahistoric. I also believe DeFi and decentralization is empty posturing and is misleading. Yes, peer to peer transactions are compelling, but consider that you are still paying fees to perform those transactions, and the institutions that are making money from you when you perform those transactions are providing far less services than you get today from the current centralized banking system. You are paying a lot more for way less, and it is not really even close. Web3 is a dystopian future; a public distributed ledger of all of my interactions on the internet?!? This is HTTP cookies on steroids, and it is incredibly naive to think that big tech isn't going to exploit that in the same way that google and facebook do today. The current centralized systems suck... The realized end state of crypto and blockchain will almost certainly be worse.

[Oakvillehoops]

Crypto will just always over amplify what the market is doing. Good or bad. I would absolutely buy crypto again