Luka Doncic and Nikola Jokic, the greatest white player ever

[DatAsh]

Don't mean for this to be a topic of race, I just know that for some time, Larry Bird has been seen as the greatest white player ever. I'm curious to know how many people think either Luka or Nikola have a realistic chance of surpassing Larry. Also, how has the international popularization of basketball affected the overall demographics? I ask genuinely, because I don't know. Personally, I like that my favorite sport is spreading across the world, and I think that the more countries that join the sport, the better.

[70sFan]

Larry Bird isn't the only great white player they have to surpass:

Jerry West
George Mikan
Dirk Nowitzki
Steve Nash
Bob Pettit

So far, they have a long road to surpass them.

[Dutchball97]

The ratio of black and white players in the league hasn't changed much due to the influence of international players. While the percentage of white players is nearly the same as it was at the start of the modern era, there is an interesting trend of less and less of those white players being American. We're at a point where when you see a white guy on the court in the NBA he's more likely to be from Europe than the States now.

Another thing is a rise in mixed race players. Before players were usually either black or white with a miniscule latino and asian representation but now over 5% of players identify with at least 2 races.

What helps guys like Jokic and Luka is that in Europe basketball isn't necessarily seen as a black man's game and more just as a tall man's game. You don't see these guys walk onto the court with some athletic inferiority complex like many white Americans seem to have nowadays. Downside of this is that short people don't really play much basketball in most places. Even for like the 5'11-6'3 range, which a large part of NBA guards fall into, it's uncommon in Europe for people like that to try and go pro in basketball.

[Ambrose]

Barring injury I think both have a great shot at being in the conversation. Jokic is playing at such a high level right now and could conceivably do this for another 3-4 years before any decline. That'd put him really high up there. Luka, for what he's done at his age, is nearly unprecedented.

[No-more-rings]

Luka and Jokic still have a ways to go, as of now it’s still clearly Bird.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Both will surpass Bird if they have decent enough longevity without injuries and motivation to keep playing. Regardless of where you land on the evaluation of the guys at their peaks, Bird lacked longevity.

Both are better offensively than Bird, albeit I recognize them as clearly worse defensively. Still I expect Luka and Jokic have games that should age well.

[70sFan]

Luka and Jokic still have a ways to go, as of now it’s still clearly Bird.

I think Mikan, West and Dirk have a word for it as well.

[70sFan]

Both will surpass Bird if they have decent enough longevity without injuries and motivation to keep playing. Regardless of where you land on the evaluation of the guys at their peaks, Bird lacked longevity.

Both are better offensively than Bird, albeit I recognize them as clearly worse defensively. Still I expect Luka and Jokic have games that should age well.

I think calling them clearly better offensively is a stretch, although I understand they have arguments.

[prolific passer]

I think Bird will have that locked in pretty much forever.

[No-more-rings]

Luka and Jokic still have a ways to go, as of now it’s still clearly Bird.

I think Mikan, West and Dirk have a word for it as well.

Ok.

[tsherkin]

As always with cross-era comparisons so distant, I have trouble even considering someone like Mikan in this conversation. Anything you might look to regarding Russell's achievements in the smaller league with the shorter season and the shorter playoff rounds with first-round byes and all of that, any concerns you have about competition and comparable nature of the game... it all goes like triple for Mikan, who in his own era started to tail off as soon as they widened the lane.

I don't think Luka or Joker have to do a lot to pass Mikan, though that's obviously IMHO. Criteria differ from person to person. He was a forerunner, his drills remain relevant, etc, etc, but like, it's also clear that Jokic is a considerably better player than Mikan was at any point in his life. He shoots better from 16-23 feet than Mikan did spending his whole career in the paint. Obviously, the game and the league and so forth were all different at the time, but it puts into perspective the difference between these guys.

West is still The Logo, and has a whole variety of iconic stuff in his career, for sure. Dirk is a very good mention because he was a major impact persona on the league in terms of international players, building on Drazen Petrovic and such, as well as obviously an amazing player. Luka is going to surpass him if he stays healthy, though, I think that's pretty evident already, but yeah, it's not quite time for that coronation just yet. Luka certainly has the postseason chops to stand with these guys, and we'll have to see how he gets treated in terms of individual accolades and team success and all that going forward.

[LesGrossman]

In the end much comes down to how high people rate the longevity aspect. To me, i care more about peak brilliance and dominance than being very good for very long. In that sense, Dirks championship season should be very high on the list, and even Dražen Petrović would have a say, even though his tragic death has robbed us all of possibly one of the GOAT candidates.

[tsherkin]

even Dražen Petrović would have a say, even though his tragic death has robbed us all of possibly one of the GOAT candidates.

I assume you mean GOAT in the context of this particular thread? And even then... he was more important than he was a contender in terms of realized ability for that purpose, and was already in his late 20s when he died. It seems unlikely that he'd suddenly take another major leap forward and add tools he wasn't really showcasing to begin with.

[LesGrossman]

even Dražen Petrović would have a say, even though his tragic death has robbed us all of possibly one of the GOAT candidates.

I assume you mean GOAT in the context of this particular thread? And even then... he was more important than he was a contender in terms of realized ability for that purpose, and was already in his late 20s when he died. It seems unlikely that he'd suddenly take another major leap forward and add tools he wasn't really showcasing to begin with.

There are people out there who claimed he could have become as good or better as Jordan, to be honest. I think he is probably the most overlooked "could have been" in the history of the league. So no, i dont limit his possibilities to only becoming the best white player ever. He stood up to the guy everyone considers the GOAT and traded punches with MJ. And prime MJ if i'm not mistaken. Dont know many guys we could say they lived up to that challenge.

To clarify, i'm not saying he WAS the greatest to ever play, i just say he should be in the conversation, if we dont rank longevity that high (and i dont think many people outside a certain bubble do). Heres a random example:

Watch on YouTube

calling him the GOAT (with a question mark).

[LukaTheGOAT]

Forgot to add, I think Jerry West is ahead of Bird all-time, so I fundamentally disagree with the question.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Both will surpass Bird if they have decent enough longevity without injuries and motivation to keep playing. Regardless of where you land on the evaluation of the guys at their peaks, Bird lacked longevity.

Both are better offensively than Bird, albeit I recognize them as clearly worse defensively. Still I expect Luka and Jokic have games that should age well.

I think calling them clearly better offensively is a stretch, although I understand they have arguments.

I know my opinion of having those 2 ahead is unpopular but I just can't personally get there with Bird. With regards to him relying on a heavy diet of tough long 2-pt shots, inability to create easy rim-attempts, not a great foul drawer, lack of resilience in the PS...

He just fundamentally represents the opposite of what I look for in the very best of the best offensive players.

[parsnips33]

Nobody's made a he's not white he's clear joke yet?

[1993Playoffs]

Luka isn’t better than Bird or West imo.

Edit - what’s the argument that he’s better than either?

[Texas Chuck]

Why do we never have a best black player thread?

And yes I say this to illustrate how stupid this is.

[eminence]

Why do we never have a best black player thread?

And yes I say this to illustrate how stupid this is.

That's obviously because everyone agrees LeBron is the no questions asked GOAT.

/s