Is there a case to made for anyone in NBA history being a better rebounder in NBA history then Wilt.

[penbeast0]

...But my main thing would be the team context matters. If your team forces a lot of misses and doesn't miss a lot, you tilt percentage of the available rebounds towards the defensive end where it's easier to get them, which may be a case for separating offensive and defensive rebounding....

Random response: That wouldn't be any of Russell, Wilt, or Rodman's teams as at least the Boston, SF, Philly, and Detroit teams were generally well below average in offensive efficiency, particularly Russell's Boston teams. There may be other factors, such as pace where Russell's motor could have him consistently beating other centers up the floor to get offensive rebounds off Boston's quick shots, but I have no tracking data for that.

[LewisnotMiller]

A case?
Sure...Russell, Rodman and maybe Mikan (I'll readily admit to having little clue on the last apart from some anecdotal stuff) have a case.

Ask me who is #1 and I'd say Chamberlain, even though I suspect Rodman (especially) and Russell had better rebounding technique.

Chamberlain's combination of playing inside, superior coordination, soft hands, massive size and great athleticism are pretty overwhelming.

[ceoofkobefans]

I think Moses is the greatest rebounder ever closely followed by Wilt who’s followed by bill Russell who’s followed by Charles Barkley who’s followed by Dennis Rodman

[Cavsfansince84]

I think it might be worth looking into different types of rebounding as well because I don't think that one guy is actually the best at each type. Be it def reb near the rim, off rebounding, put backs or ones that go off at awkward angles that guys really have to anticipate or react to then move faster to get. Just as there's different types of shooting that guys excel at.

[OhayoKD]

In Wilt’s peak rebounding season, he averaged 27 RPG while his team missed 65 shots per game. In Rodman’s peak rebounding season, he averaged 19 RPG while his team missed 45 shots per game.

So Rodman actually grabbed a higher percentage of the total rebounds per game despite playing “only” 40 MPG compared to Wilt’s 48. Rodman’s definitely GOAT rebounder IMO.

Rodman's rebounding rate dropped considerably in the playoffs though, while Wilt's raised.

Also, how much help is rodman getting when he's winning rebounds? He generally played with stronger/sturdier defenders right?

Ultimately rebounds aren't worth much if they're uncontested and how contested they are affects the actual value getting a rebound contributes. Feel like that should be considered here

[penbeast0]

In Wilt’s peak rebounding season, he averaged 27 RPG while his team missed 65 shots per game. In Rodman’s peak rebounding season, he averaged 19 RPG while his team missed 45 shots per game.

So Rodman actually grabbed a higher percentage of the total rebounds per game despite playing “only” 40 MPG compared to Wilt’s 48. Rodman’s definitely GOAT rebounder IMO.

Rodman's rebounding rate dropped considerably in the playoffs though, while Wilt's raised.

Also, how much help is rodman getting when he's winning rebounds? He generally played with stronger/sturdier defenders right?

Ultimately rebounds aren't worth much if they're uncontested and how contested they are affects the actual value getting a rebound contributes. Feel like that should be considered here

Not sure what you are getting at here. Rodman played much of his career with a stronger rebounder (Laimbeer, or for that matter David Robinson) than Wilt ever played with except possibly 1 year of Thurmond, and 1 year of Baylor.

IF you are bringing up the fact that they changed how they scored "team rebounds," that's what Hollinger was attempting to estimate with his estimated reb% since you can't calculate it simply as we don't have those numbers.

[OhayoKD]

Rodman's rebounding rate dropped considerably in the playoffs though, while Wilt's raised.

Also, how much help is rodman getting when he's winning rebounds? He generally played with stronger/sturdier defenders right?

Ultimately rebounds aren't worth much if they're uncontested and how contested they are affects the actual value getting a rebound contributes. Feel like that should be considered here

Not sure what you are getting at here. Rodman played much of his career with a stronger rebounder (Laimbeer, or for that matter David Robinson) than Wilt ever played with except possibly 1 year of Thurmond, and 1 year of Baylor.

IF you are bringing up the fact that they changed how they scored "team rebounds," that's what Hollinger was attempting to estimate with his estimated reb% since you can't calculate it simply as we don't have those numbers.

Difficulty(and by extension value) of a rebound is influenced by how contested they are by opposing players right?

So if this is the case, then how many/how well attackers are able to contest your rebounding affects your rebound rate or rebound totals or whatever metric you're using.

Put another way, rebounds are not exclusively an individual accomplishment. Just like playing with better creators can spike your scoring efficacy, playing with certain teammates can spike your rebound rate

[penbeast0]

True but how much of an effect is there? These are careers spanning over a decade with multiple different big man partners in each case. It's a difference but probably not that much of one. Of course I've been wrong about things like this many times as new data emerges.

[OhayoKD]

True but how much of an effect is there? These are careers spanning over a decade with multiple different big man partners in each case. It's a difference but probably not that much of one. Of course I've been wrong about things like this many times as new data emerges.

might be worth looking into tho. All else equal, you'd probably expect a bigger player to be doing(can we call it rebound assisting?) to do more of that than a smaller one and benefit less from rebound assisting. I recall blocked noting that there were games(like 87 bird vs the pistons) where almost all the rebounds were uncontested. Not sure the extent this would apply(if at all) to rodman, but its something to think about ig

[Laimbeer]

Wilt v. Mikan -- can't speak to this without accurate numbers.

Wilt v. Russell -- Wilt had larger totals due to larger minutes and you will see this v. everyone else in the history of the NBA. Wilt played more minutes per game than anyone else ever. The Russell side of the argument is two-fold. Per minute, according to our statistics, Russell had slightly better rebound totals, thus Hollinger's rebound rate has him higher. Also, Russell played further from the basket on both sides of the ball with his more active defense and his late career high post passing hub on offense. And yet he still had a higher rebound rate than Wilt, mainly due to his ability to quick jump and to see where things were going on the court.

Wilt v. Rodman and Drummond. IF Russell had a higher estimated rebound rate than Wilt, Rodman and Drummond are the all time leaders in actual calculated rebound rate and by a considerable amount. Their numbers look considerably better than Hollinger's estimated rate for Wilt (or Russell).

Wilt still has the highest rebound totals and rebounds per game numbers due to his ridiculous minutes and stamina and due to the era he played in where there were more rebounds available. Also, in his day, teams used their PF as a banger and rebounder as well so there were more players fighting for rebounds than in the modern era of 4 out offenses. So Wilt does have a case as well.

Can't think of anyone else that has a case; don't see Unseld in this category despite him being my favorite player growing up.

I'm not sure about this. Wilt was never pulled away from the basket and I'd think rebounds are longer now.

[Laimbeer]

Drummond is widely considered a low IQ, low motor player. Those would seem to be two things needed to be a great rebounder. Thoughts?

[penbeast0]

I don't think IQ is involved in most rebounding, maybe instinct a bit. Moses was not considered a high IQ player either and he's on any short list of great rebounders. Hadn't heard complaints about Drummond's motor, just his lack of shooting range. He's actually has surprisingly good steal numbers for a center too, fwiw.

[ty 4191]

I don't think IQ is involved in most rebounding, maybe instinct a bit.

High IQ was certainly the case with Rodman, who might very well be the greatest ever to do it. I agree with you he's probably an extreme outlier though in his approach.

I wish I could find the excerpt, free, but I can't. I can only recommend you watch this, if you haven't seen it. Fascinating and incredibly well made, all around:

Watch on YouTube

And this is one hell of an article from the SI Vault:
https://vault.si.com/vault/1996/03/04/tricks-of-the-trade-with-elbows-and-erudition-dennis-rodman-of-chicago-rules-over-nba-rebounders

Rodman would watch only misses of shots for hours on end. How many times does the ball revolve? Where does each player's shot tend to land on the rim? Which side and which angle and trajectory? Etc. etc. He said (paraphrasing): "It's not about jumping high. Most of the work is already done in rebounding before you even leave the floor."

He certainly separated from his peers by a much bigger degree during his prime than anyone else in basketball history, and was relatively short and small (in bulk) compared to almost all of the greatest rebounders in history.

So, I think it is worth noting.

[penbeast0]

Jerry Lucas was similar; he would calculate which side of the basket the ball would more frequently miss to for shots from each spot on the floor, etc. then move to those spots. I think most of the great rebounders do this instinctively rather than intellectually but it's nice to see someone actually studying it.

[OhayoKD]

Jerry Lucas was similar; he would calculate which side of the basket the ball would more frequently miss to for shots from each spot on the floor, etc. then move to those spots. I think most of the great rebounders do this instinctively rather than intellectually but it's nice to see someone actually studying it.

is it an instinct thing or "i'm bigger so i dont have to be as precise"

[OhayoKD]

Drummond is widely considered a low IQ, low motor player. Those would seem to be two things needed to be a great rebounder. Thoughts?

Drummond is someone i'd probably want to scrutinize a bit with this framework in mind:

True but how much of an effect is there? These are careers spanning over a decade with multiple different big man partners in each case. It's a difference but probably not that much of one. Of course I've been wrong about things like this many times as new data emerges.

might be worth looking into tho. All else equal, you'd probably expect a bigger player to be doing(can we call it rebound assisting?) to do more of that than a smaller one and benefit less from rebound assisting. I recall blocked noting that there were games(like 87 bird vs the pistons) where almost all the rebounds were uncontested. Not sure the extent this would apply(if at all) to rodman, but its something to think about ig