NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[moderndarwin]

Zion. Closest thing to Orlando Shaq we’ve seen. In power and explosiveness and agility for someone that size. Not in playing style obviously.

[Infinite Llamas]

Giannis back to back 40/20 games, last guy was Moses Malone in 1982

He’s also taken 62 field goal attempts and 38 free throw attempts the past two games which brings the numbers down to earth a bit. The knee issue really has messed up his efficiency this year.

[Bob8]

The 5-0 win streak is against 0 teams over .500, the closest being the Knicks who were without RJ Barret and Brunson. Great performances by him, but not exactly the most impressive stretch we can find. He has the Spurs and Rockets coming up, so at least the narrative can grow against the continued weak competition.

Jokic is the clear MVP thus far, but I like that there is a host of candidates.

You have to remember, the Mavs are missing their key defensive players with this stretch and Luka's 2nd best player is Spencer. The Nuggets has more depth. If Jokic managed to win last year with his team at number 6 in the West, why not Luka if Dallas continues to win games?

The Nuggets last year, minus Jokic, are probably a middle of the pack g League team. That’s why.

And what are Mavs without Luka? The only team, which didn't win a single game without their top player this year.

[Mick Dundee]

And what are Mavs without Luka? The only team, which didn't win a single game without their top player this year.

That's a very good argument.

But, still, I mean ... how we gonna give the MVP to Luka if the Mavs remain 6th or worse?

[Andri]

Zion. Closest thing to Orlando Shaq we’ve seen. In power and explosiveness and agility for someone that size. Not in playing style obviously.

I love Zion, and IMO he will be in the conversation from next year. But NBA is making him no favor with some of those phantom calls. The noise around the league will be spreading soon about his special treatment

[Bob8]

And what are Mavs without Luka? The only team, which didn't win a single game without their top player this year.

That's a very good argument.

But, still, I mean ... how we gonna give the MVP to Luka if the Mavs remain 6th or worse?

It depends how those with teams in front will do. Team standing alone can be very misleading. For example, Pelicans are first but Zion and Luka have very similar record, when both are playing for their teams.

[JayMKE]

Giannis back to back 40/20 games, last guy was Moses Malone in 1982

He’s also taken 62 field goal attempts and 38 free throw attempts the past two games which brings the numbers down to earth a bit. The knee issue really has messed up his efficiency this year.

Its more not having Middleton or Jrue, efficiency takes a hit when he has no help. Giannis has had less than Jokic did last year.

[Exp0sed]

Giannis back to back 40/20 games, last guy was Moses Malone in 1982

He’s also taken 62 field goal attempts and 38 free throw attempts the past two games which brings the numbers down to earth a bit. The knee issue really has messed up his efficiency this year.

Its more not having Middleton or Jrue, efficiency takes a hit when he has no help. Giannis has had less than Jokic did last year.

no, he hasn't

but he is effectively without his #2 option all season and that's obviously significant and def can explain some (but not all) of his efficiency struggles

but even then you have a guy like Jrue who isn't a good #2 but still can do it in a pinch without hurting you too much

Jrue, Lopez and Portis are much better than what Jokic worked with last season, even if u only look at offense
but don't forget good defense creates good offense as well, Carter, Allen, Jrue, Lopez, Giannis is a hell of a defensive starting 5

The Nuggets were defending with Facu, Monte Morris and the corpse of Green

Portis might be a slightly worse defender than AG but all 3 are better offensively

add a few more guys who are playing at a decent NBA level like Carter, Grayson Allen etc - u got urself an NBA team
their bench is the problem when short handed but whose isn't? (not many teams and certainly not the Nuggets)

Jokic was playing with a G-league team, geriatric Jeff Green, useless Barton and guys like Facu and Austin Rivers
Giannis absoultely does NOT have "less" than what Jokic played with last season

that Nuggets team was beyond bad

[infinite11285]

2-man race between Luka and Tatum.

[Packbuckman]

He’s also taken 62 field goal attempts and 38 free throw attempts the past two games which brings the numbers down to earth a bit. The knee issue really has messed up his efficiency this year.

Its more not having Middleton or Jrue, efficiency takes a hit when he has no help. Giannis has had less than Jokic did last year.

no, he hasn't

but he is effectively without his #2 option all season and that's obviously significant and def can explain some (but not all) of his efficiency struggles

but even then you have a guy like Jrue who isn't a good #2 but still can do it in a pinch without hurting you too much

Jrue, Lopez and Portis are much better than what Jokic worked with last season, even if u only look at offense
but don't forget good defense creates good offense as well, Carter, Allen, Jrue, Lopez, Giannis is a hell of a defensive starting 5

The Nuggets were defending with Facu, Monte Morris and the corpse of Green

Portis might be a slightly worse defender than AG but all 3 are better offensively

add a few more guys who are playing at a decent NBA level like Carter, Grayson Allen etc - u got urself an NBA team
their bench is the problem when short handed but whose isn't? (not many teams and certainly not the Nuggets)

Jokic was playing with a G-league team, geriatric Jeff Green, useless Barton and guys like Facu and Austin Rivers
Giannis absoultely does NOT have "less" than what Jokic played with last season

that Nuggets team was beyond bad

Those players you mentioned for the bucks are not shooting the ball very well this year 29% on wide open 3’s is pathetically bad they started out last nite 3-22 and were down 11 at the half even with Giannis dominance I bet the nuggets players are not shooting that bad last year or this year.

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

[NO-KG-AI]

Zion. Closest thing to Orlando Shaq we’ve seen. In power and explosiveness and agility for someone that size. Not in playing style obviously.

I love Zion, and IMO he will be in the conversation from next year. But NBA is making him no favor with some of those phantom calls. The noise around the league will be spreading soon about his special treatment

Lmao, that's a wild take. The dude has far and away the most shots at the rim and has taken the most contact on his way there, I don't think that's even debatable at this point, is it? Nobody plays through and with more contact right now, he literally doesn't shoot unless it's a collision at the rim.

And despite that, he's 9th in FTA, some guys are shooting 4-5 more attempts per game. He's like 0.6 ahead of rookie Paolo Banchero. There are sub 200 pound jump shooting guards ahead of him. How many should he be shooting per game? 5? 6? Where is the line drawn for the most prolific paint attacker in the league?

Zion is not MVP, but he's very far from special treatment with fouls. He's getting the benefit of the doubt way less than his contemporaries, as it's he and Giannis way out ahead of the pack in interior attempts, and a bigger chunk of Giannis' are on fast break in less congested conditions (Zion is leading the league by a small margin in shots inside 5 feet, right ahead of Giannis. 5.7 of Giannis attempts are in transition compared to 2.5 for Zion).

This narrative that he's getting calls and other guys aren't is insanely laughable. It's like you guys want something to be real so bad so you can be mad and try to speak it into existence.

[JayMKE]

He’s also taken 62 field goal attempts and 38 free throw attempts the past two games which brings the numbers down to earth a bit. The knee issue really has messed up his efficiency this year.

Its more not having Middleton or Jrue, efficiency takes a hit when he has no help. Giannis has had less than Jokic did last year.

no, he hasn't

but he is effectively without his #2 option all season and that's obviously significant and def can explain some (but not all) of his efficiency struggles

but even then you have a guy like Jrue who isn't a good #2 but still can do it in a pinch without hurting you too much

Jrue, Lopez and Portis are much better than what Jokic worked with last season, even if u only look at offense
but don't forget good defense creates good offense as well, Carter, Allen, Jrue, Lopez, Giannis is a hell of a defensive starting 5

The Nuggets were defending with Facu, Monte Morris and the corpse of Green

Portis might be a slightly worse defender than AG but all 3 are better offensively

add a few more guys who are playing at a decent NBA level like Carter, Grayson Allen etc - u got urself an NBA team
their bench is the problem when short handed but whose isn't? (not many teams and certainly not the Nuggets)

Jokic was playing with a G-league team, geriatric Jeff Green, useless Barton and guys like Facu and Austin Rivers
Giannis absoultely does NOT have "less" than what Jokic played with last season

that Nuggets team was beyond bad

Jokic fans are so attached to this narrative they gatekeep it

Jrue and Khris have both missed time and not looked good when they have played, Portis/Lopez are streaky bigs and Allen/Carter aren't starters anywhere in the league. This isn't close to a playoff team without Giannis, its would probably be the worst team in the league if Giannis went done, I would not bother watching the games.

[moderndarwin]

Zion getting calls lol. This like Orlando Shaq all over again. He takes an absolute beating out there and gets barely any calls because he’s so strong.

[Peregrine01]

Its more not having Middleton or Jrue, efficiency takes a hit when he has no help. Giannis has had less than Jokic did last year.

no, he hasn't

but he is effectively without his #2 option all season and that's obviously significant and def can explain some (but not all) of his efficiency struggles

but even then you have a guy like Jrue who isn't a good #2 but still can do it in a pinch without hurting you too much

Jrue, Lopez and Portis are much better than what Jokic worked with last season, even if u only look at offense
but don't forget good defense creates good offense as well, Carter, Allen, Jrue, Lopez, Giannis is a hell of a defensive starting 5

The Nuggets were defending with Facu, Monte Morris and the corpse of Green

Portis might be a slightly worse defender than AG but all 3 are better offensively

add a few more guys who are playing at a decent NBA level like Carter, Grayson Allen etc - u got urself an NBA team
their bench is the problem when short handed but whose isn't? (not many teams and certainly not the Nuggets)

Jokic was playing with a G-league team, geriatric Jeff Green, useless Barton and guys like Facu and Austin Rivers
Giannis absoultely does NOT have "less" than what Jokic played with last season

that Nuggets team was beyond bad

Jokic fans are so attached to this narrative they gatekeep it

Jrue and Khris have both missed time and not looked good when they have played, Portis/Lopez are streaky bigs and Allen/Carter aren't starters anywhere in the league. This isn't close to a playoff team without Giannis, its would probably be the worst team in the league if Giannis went done, I would not bother watching the games.

Giannis isn’t the offensive player that Jokic is and Jokic isn’t the defensive player that Giannis is.

[_NoMas]

Its more not having Middleton or Jrue, efficiency takes a hit when he has no help. Giannis has had less than Jokic did last year.

no, he hasn't

but he is effectively without his #2 option all season and that's obviously significant and def can explain some (but not all) of his efficiency struggles

but even then you have a guy like Jrue who isn't a good #2 but still can do it in a pinch without hurting you too much

Jrue, Lopez and Portis are much better than what Jokic worked with last season, even if u only look at offense
but don't forget good defense creates good offense as well, Carter, Allen, Jrue, Lopez, Giannis is a hell of a defensive starting 5

The Nuggets were defending with Facu, Monte Morris and the corpse of Green

Portis might be a slightly worse defender than AG but all 3 are better offensively

add a few more guys who are playing at a decent NBA level like Carter, Grayson Allen etc - u got urself an NBA team
their bench is the problem when short handed but whose isn't? (not many teams and certainly not the Nuggets)

Jokic was playing with a G-league team, geriatric Jeff Green, useless Barton and guys like Facu and Austin Rivers
Giannis absoultely does NOT have "less" than what Jokic played with last season

that Nuggets team was beyond bad

Jokic fans are so attached to this narrative they gatekeep it

Jrue and Khris have both missed time and not looked good when they have played, Portis/Lopez are streaky bigs and Allen/Carter aren't starters anywhere in the league. This isn't close to a playoff team without Giannis, its would probably be the worst team in the league if Giannis went done, I would not bother watching the games.

They’re 4-1 without Giannis (and with Middleton missing those games too). I can assure you they would not be the worst team in the league without Giannis

[JayMKE]

no, he hasn't

but he is effectively without his #2 option all season and that's obviously significant and def can explain some (but not all) of his efficiency struggles

but even then you have a guy like Jrue who isn't a good #2 but still can do it in a pinch without hurting you too much

Jrue, Lopez and Portis are much better than what Jokic worked with last season, even if u only look at offense
but don't forget good defense creates good offense as well, Carter, Allen, Jrue, Lopez, Giannis is a hell of a defensive starting 5

The Nuggets were defending with Facu, Monte Morris and the corpse of Green

Portis might be a slightly worse defender than AG but all 3 are better offensively

add a few more guys who are playing at a decent NBA level like Carter, Grayson Allen etc - u got urself an NBA team
their bench is the problem when short handed but whose isn't? (not many teams and certainly not the Nuggets)

Jokic was playing with a G-league team, geriatric Jeff Green, useless Barton and guys like Facu and Austin Rivers
Giannis absoultely does NOT have "less" than what Jokic played with last season

that Nuggets team was beyond bad

Jokic fans are so attached to this narrative they gatekeep it

Jrue and Khris have both missed time and not looked good when they have played, Portis/Lopez are streaky bigs and Allen/Carter aren't starters anywhere in the league. This isn't close to a playoff team without Giannis, its would probably be the worst team in the league if Giannis went done, I would not bother watching the games.

They’re 4-1 without Giannis (and with Middleton missing those games too). I can assure you they would not be the worst team in the league without Giannis

I can assure you since I actually watch games and Bud load managing against tanking teams doesn't make this a deep team, 100% without Giannis this team is trash with little redeemable qualities. Giannis has no help compared to years in the past which is why he his efficiency has suffered, its just a fact.

[Smirk]

Zion. Closest thing to Orlando Shaq we’ve seen. In power and explosiveness and agility for someone that size. Not in playing style obviously.

I love Zion, and IMO he will be in the conversation from next year. But NBA is making him no favor with some of those phantom calls. The noise around the league will be spreading soon about his special treatment

You are joking correct? No one gets less calls than him. People have gone back and calculated the calls he should have gotten and it’s absurd. He gets the shaq treatment and gets physically abused with no calls.

He’s gotten nice whistles the past two games but those games are not indicative of how’s been officiated in his career.

[Exp0sed]

Its more not having Middleton or Jrue, efficiency takes a hit when he has no help. Giannis has had less than Jokic did last year.

Jokic fans are so attached to this narrative they gatekeep it

Jrue and Khris have both missed time and not looked good when they have played, Portis/Lopez are streaky bigs and Allen/Carter aren't starters anywhere in the league. This isn't close to a playoff team without Giannis, its would probably be the worst team in the league if Giannis went done, I would not bother watching the games.

i'm a Jokic and a Giannis fan too, imagine that

Bucks are one of my fav Franchises as well, for decades (no idea why, just happened)

Jrue has played 26 games
he is shooting well below what he shot last two season for the Bucks, but 45% and 36% from 3 is decent enogh, it's not like he's a liability out there (like u make him out to be). he has an OBPM of 2.5 (well above average and 2nd this season after Giannis for the Bucks)

just because he shoots (a bit more) at a 56 TS% instead of his usual 59% (on slightly less volume) doesn't mean doesn't impact the game positively on the offensive end

Lopez is shooting 50% from the field and almost 39% from 3 (on decent volume) and is one the best and most reliable spacing bigs in the league

Grayson Allen has his limitations but he can chuck at an NBA level and that's not new
he has the best offensive rating (bball reference, not nba.com) on this Bucks team

Portis is a good scorer

and like i said, defense creates offense as well

yes, this team obviously wouldn't be anywhere without Giannis - is that news to somebody?

duh, they aren't good offensively thus far and that's making Giannis life even harder

but don't kid urself, Giannis is struggling (relative to himself, not in general) has alot to do with Giannis himself and not his cast

If he was his usual self, it'd make life easier for his cast as well
like we see from other candidates such as Luka, Jokic, and others to a lesser extent (Tatum, Durant, Zion etc.

it works both ways

i'm guessing this knee issue is real and that he's just not a 100%

without Middelton they don't have enough to beat the real contenders (as we saw last playoffs) but there's no need for hyperbole - this is an NBA roster, Jokic played last season with a G-league roster

5 players that played over a 1000 mins for the Nuggets last season wouldn't get off the bench in the Bucks rotation: injured Jamychal Green, Facu, rookie Bones, Rivers and the corpse of Jeff Green

over 2000 mins were played by Will Barton and Monte Morris
Morris might get some uneventful backup mins for the Bucks but Barton wouldn't

Portis, Lopez, Jrue and even Allen would be starters on last season's Nuggets

other than Joker, AG is the only player that would be a starter (probably) on this Bucks team, but if your argument is that Jrue has played somewhat subpar you'd have to realize that AG was pretty bad last season and that his 33% from 3 won't help Giannis much

AG of last season isn't a starter for the Bucks

so you can keep telling urself that Giannis has what Jokic had to work with last season if it makes you feel better but that's simply not true

I also think that voters saw very clearly just how historically bad his team was and decided to give him the award despite finishing just 6th

[Dripdear]

Most Valuable Player could be interpreted in more than one way.
If by it we mean the most valuable player on both ends of the floor, then Giannis and Tatum are leading the race.
If on the other hand valuable is interpreted as how impactful and essential has a player been during the season regardless of how complete his game is (ex. Luca's offensive impact while being sorta weak on defense), then Luca and jokic are in the lead.