NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[Andri]

Zion. Closest thing to Orlando Shaq we’ve seen. In power and explosiveness and agility for someone that size. Not in playing style obviously.

I love Zion, and IMO he will be in the conversation from next year. But NBA is making him no favor with some of those phantom calls. The noise around the league will be spreading soon about his special treatment

Lmao, that's a wild take. The dude has far and away the most shots at the rim and has taken the most contact on his way there, I don't think that's even debatable at this point, is it? Nobody plays through and with more contact right now, he literally doesn't shoot unless it's a collision at the rim.

And despite that, he's 9th in FTA, some guys are shooting 4-5 more attempts per game. He's like 0.6 ahead of rookie Paolo Banchero. There are sub 200 pound jump shooting guards ahead of him. How many should he be shooting per game? 5? 6? Where is the line drawn for the most prolific paint attacker in the league?

Zion is not MVP, but he's very far from special treatment with fouls. He's getting the benefit of the doubt way less than his contemporaries, as it's he and Giannis way out ahead of the pack in interior attempts, and a bigger chunk of Giannis' are on fast break in less congested conditions (Zion is leading the league by a small margin in shots inside 5 feet, right ahead of Giannis. 5.7 of Giannis attempts are in transition compared to 2.5 for Zion).

This narrative that he's getting calls and other guys aren't is insanely laughable. It's like you guys want something to be real so bad so you can be mad and try to speak it into existence.

Hey, yesterday even the Pel's crew (the best by far in the league IMO) recognized during the game in 2 specific fouls that there was little contact or not at all. Take what happened with the elbow to Gobert's face two days ago.

Saying 'insanely laughable' is quite lame to be honest. And who are 'you guys'? I root for Zion, so drop that automatic reactions and try to listen a little bit more.

[Infinite Llamas]

“Giannis team this year is worse than Jokic team last year” is an historically bad take. Nuggets winning 4 games without Jokic last year would have been an act of god.

Giannis playing 1-5 for a lot of the year has a lot to with his efficiency as well. It’s clear he’s lost some trust in his teammates but his teammates aren’t as bad shooters as the numbers would appear. You’d have to be delusional to take Rivers/Morris/Barton/Gordon over Lopez/Jrue/Portis/Allen/Pat

[JayMKE]

Jokic fans are so attached to this narrative they gatekeep it

Jrue and Khris have both missed time and not looked good when they have played, Portis/Lopez are streaky bigs and Allen/Carter aren't starters anywhere in the league. This isn't close to a playoff team without Giannis, its would probably be the worst team in the league if Giannis went done, I would not bother watching the games.

i'm a Jokic and a Giannis fan too, imagine that

Bucks are one of my fav Franchises as well, for decades (no idea why, just happened)

Jrue has played 26 games
he is shooting well below what he shot last two season for the Bucks, but 45% and 36% from 3 is decent enogh, it's not like he's a liability out there (like u make him out to be). he has an OBPM of 2.5 (well above average and 2nd this season after Giannis for the Bucks)

just because he shoots (a bit more) at a 56 TS% instead of his usual 59% (on slightly less volume) doesn't mean doesn't impact the game positively on the offensive end

Lopez is shooting 50% from the field and almost 39% from 3 (on decent volume) and is one the best and most reliable spacing bigs in the league

Grayson Allen has his limitations but he can chuck at an NBA level and that's not new
he has the best offensive rating (bball reference, not nba.com) on this Bucks team

Portis is a good scorer

and like i said, defense creates offense as well

yes, this team obviously wouldn't be anywhere without Giannis - is that news to somebody?

duh, they aren't good offensively thus far and that's making Giannis life even harder

but don't kid urself, Giannis is struggling (relative to himself, not in general) has alot to do with Giannis himself and not his cast

If he was his usual self, it'd make life easier for his cast as well
like we see from other candidates such as Luka, Jokic, and others to a lesser extent (Tatum, Durant, Zion etc.

it works both ways

i'm guessing this knee issue is real and that he's just not a 100%

without Middelton they don't have enough to beat the real contenders (as we saw last playoffs) but there's no need for hyperbole - this is an NBA roster, Jokic played last season with a G-league roster

5 players that played over a 1000 mins for the Nuggets last season wouldn't get off the bench in the Bucks rotation: injured Jamychal Green, Facu, rookie Bones, Rivers and the corpse of Jeff Green

over 2000 mins were played by Will Barton and Monte Morris
Morris might get some uneventful backup mins for the Bucks but Barton wouldn't

Portis, Lopez, Jrue and even Allen would be starters on last season's Nuggets

other than Joker, AG is the only player that would be a starter (probably) on this Bucks team, but if your argument is that Jrue has played somewhat subpar you'd have to realize that AG was pretty bad last season and that his 33% from 3 won't help Giannis much

AG of last season isn't a starter for the Bucks

so you can keep telling urself that Giannis has what Jokic had to work with last season if it makes you feel better but that's simply not true

I also think that voters saw very clearly just how historically bad his team was and decided to give him the award despite finishing just 6th

Jokic is an amazing player but I respect his fans that like him because he's fat big guy who plays in the place with mountains & weed more than the ones who trumpet stuff like VORP and sabermetrics who are obsessed with regular season hardware especially ones that aren't even Denver fans. It was an ugly look with Harden, its uglier now. Giannis having no help this year is objective fact, Jokic fans need to step back & stop trying to gatekeep that narrative but I'm guessing you guys must not be done with it.

Giannis knee is more an issue of usage just like his efficiency, he's had to carry a much heavier load and gets fatigued especially at the end of games. Nobody besides Giannis can create their own shot, our team is allergic to wide open 3 pointers, Giannis has been forced to face up and facilitate the offense far more this season with Jrue/Jevon being pure dogs*** as PGs offensively. If the team was healthy and playing to expectation then his efficiency would be better and the Bucks would probably be the #1 seed as opposed to a couple games out.

[CharityStripe34]

I'm just happy we get to watch 5-7 elite players playing at incredible levels.

[NO-KG-AI]

I love Zion, and IMO he will be in the conversation from next year. But NBA is making him no favor with some of those phantom calls. The noise around the league will be spreading soon about his special treatment

Lmao, that's a wild take. The dude has far and away the most shots at the rim and has taken the most contact on his way there, I don't think that's even debatable at this point, is it? Nobody plays through and with more contact right now, he literally doesn't shoot unless it's a collision at the rim.

And despite that, he's 9th in FTA, some guys are shooting 4-5 more attempts per game. He's like 0.6 ahead of rookie Paolo Banchero. There are sub 200 pound jump shooting guards ahead of him. How many should he be shooting per game? 5? 6? Where is the line drawn for the most prolific paint attacker in the league?

Zion is not MVP, but he's very far from special treatment with fouls. He's getting the benefit of the doubt way less than his contemporaries, as it's he and Giannis way out ahead of the pack in interior attempts, and a bigger chunk of Giannis' are on fast break in less congested conditions (Zion is leading the league by a small margin in shots inside 5 feet, right ahead of Giannis. 5.7 of Giannis attempts are in transition compared to 2.5 for Zion).

This narrative that he's getting calls and other guys aren't is insanely laughable. It's like you guys want something to be real so bad so you can be mad and try to speak it into existence.

Hey, yesterday even the Pel's crew (the best by far in the league IMO) recognized during the game in 2 specific fouls that there was little contact or not at all. Take what happened with the elbow to Gobert's face two days ago.

Saying 'insanely laughable' is quite lame to be honest. And who are 'you guys'? I root for Zion, so drop that automatic reactions and try to listen a little bit more.

Pointing out two fouls on a guy that is involved in contact 20+ drives IS laughable.

There’s no way that you can make a case that Zion is getting the most undeserved calls compared to his fellow stars that are absorbing a lot less contact and shooting a lot more foul shots, but anecdotal evidence might be the worst.

But since the Pels commentary team is the holy grail of analysis, they’ve been complaining all year that he doesn’t get nearly enough compared to other stars that get hit a lot less.

I really don’t complain about foul shots because I think Zion and his opponents get away with a lot of contact against each other and it’s kind of how it should be called.

But compared to other MVP guys listed? Totally laughable. Dudes are flopping, flailing and falling their way to more free throws than the dude setting a new standard for amount of times attacking the rim in the half court

[Gregoire]

Tatum
Giannis
Doncic
Durant
Jokic
Zion

[p0peye]

2020's will be remembered as legendary era of basketball, IMHO.

[Packbuckman]

no, he hasn't

but he is effectively without his #2 option all season and that's obviously significant and def can explain some (but not all) of his efficiency struggles

but even then you have a guy like Jrue who isn't a good #2 but still can do it in a pinch without hurting you too much

Jrue, Lopez and Portis are much better than what Jokic worked with last season, even if u only look at offense
but don't forget good defense creates good offense as well, Carter, Allen, Jrue, Lopez, Giannis is a hell of a defensive starting 5

The Nuggets were defending with Facu, Monte Morris and the corpse of Green

Portis might be a slightly worse defender than AG but all 3 are better offensively

add a few more guys who are playing at a decent NBA level like Carter, Grayson Allen etc - u got urself an NBA team
their bench is the problem when short handed but whose isn't? (not many teams and certainly not the Nuggets)

Jokic was playing with a G-league team, geriatric Jeff Green, useless Barton and guys like Facu and Austin Rivers
Giannis absoultely does NOT have "less" than what Jokic played with last season

that Nuggets team was beyond bad

Jokic fans are so attached to this narrative they gatekeep it

Jrue and Khris have both missed time and not looked good when they have played, Portis/Lopez are streaky bigs and Allen/Carter aren't starters anywhere in the league. This isn't close to a playoff team without Giannis, its would probably be the worst team in the league if Giannis went done, I would not bother watching the games.

They’re 4-1 without Giannis (and with Middleton missing those games too). I can assure you they would not be the worst team in the league without Giannis

Who did they play in those gms they won without Giannis they sure weren’t playoff teams and those gms were at the beginning of the year when they could shoot a little bit and jrue was playing pretty good so not the worst but not very good either.

[CobraCommander]

2020's will be remembered as legendary era of basketball, IMHO.

Or they will have to change the rules to stop all these historically high statistical outburst. Giannis going back to back 40/20 is insane. He is back on top or at least right there behind Jokic again...

[CobraCommander]

I'm just happy we get to watch 5-7 elite players playing at incredible levels.

This year and this era proves why it’s so hard to be the unanimous best player on earth Like MJ and Lebron did...usually there are a few guys that can claim the crown

[p0peye]

2020's will be remembered as legendary era of basketball, IMHO.

Or they will have to change the rules to stop all these historically high statistical outburst. Giannis going back to back 40/20 is insane. He is back on top or at least right there behind Jokic again...

Purely from talent perspective, disregards raw numbers.

[_NoMas]

Jokic fans are so attached to this narrative they gatekeep it

Jrue and Khris have both missed time and not looked good when they have played, Portis/Lopez are streaky bigs and Allen/Carter aren't starters anywhere in the league. This isn't close to a playoff team without Giannis, its would probably be the worst team in the league if Giannis went done, I would not bother watching the games.

They’re 4-1 without Giannis (and with Middleton missing those games too). I can assure you they would not be the worst team in the league without Giannis

Who did they play in those gms they won without Giannis they sure weren’t playoff teams and those gms were at the beginning of the year when they could shoot a little bit and jrue was playing pretty good so not the worst but not very good either.

Frankly it doesn’t matter who. I was rejecting the point that the bucks ‘would be the worst team in the league without Giannis’. They were literallly 4-1 without him, so saying ‘yeah but they beat really bad teams’ makes no sense if you’re trying to argue a Giannis-less bucks would be THE worst.

[CobraCommander]

2020's will be remembered as legendary era of basketball, IMHO.

Or they will have to change the rules to stop all these historically high statistical outburst. Giannis going back to back 40/20 is insane. He is back on top or at least right there behind Jokic again...

Purely from talent perspective, disregards raw numbers.

I think the perceived talent is a product of the rule changes....palming the ball and delayed high dribbles would be travels...the gather euro step would be travels...that would impact ja, Luka, Giannis and Lebron all day every day...their gather and dribble plus steps are impossible to watch and not think...that’s a travel at the park or 24 hour fitness...plus no hand check you can’t even look at some of these guys wrong and not get a foul or a tech.. those inflate the numbers big time. A guy like Rik Smits would be vastly improved in this era...same with someone like Yao Ming...I think Kevin Johnson would flourish even more as well...a lot of guys that would have had higher stats if you couldn’t touch them and they could travel lol.

[Exp0sed]

2020's will be remembered as legendary era of basketball, IMHO.

Or they will have to change the rules to stop all these historically high statistical outburst. Giannis going back to back 40/20 is insane. He is back on top or at least right there behind Jokic again...

how are current rules impacting Giannis rebounds?
scoring, sure but he would score plenty in any era \ rules

his usage is first in the league, WB broke the all time usage record in 16-17 with about 41% iirce
Giannis is 37-38% (just like last season)

sure, we'[ve had a few more like Harden, Luka etc but it's a relatively new phenomenon
past players with past rules didn't reach such heights (rarely)

Young Jordan for a full season, hit 38% only once in 86-87 and played 40 mpg as well
most of his career including his prime he was at around 32-33%

Giannis is using up more possesions than prime Jordan, hard to wrap ur head around ain't it?

taking so many shots and getting so many touches (more than past scorers who were better scorers and playmakers than Giannis) - results in a lot of points. does the current rules and the way the'yre enforced inflate that? sure, by not by that much

And it's not that hard to grab 20 boards when ur uber athletic, strong and with Giannis's size
especially when u play alongside the best box-out artist of his generation haha, who just loves to box out so his teammates can grab the board

it'll happen from time to time, back to back is an outlier but if u play ur odds long enough...

[CobraCommander]

2020's will be remembered as legendary era of basketball, IMHO.

Or they will have to change the rules to stop all these historically high statistical outburst. Giannis going back to back 40/20 is insane. He is back on top or at least right there behind Jokic again...

how are current rules impacting Giannis rebounds?
scoring, sure but he would score plenty in any era \ rules

his usage is first in the league, WB broke the all time usage record in 16-17 with about 41% iirce
Giannis is 37-38% (just like last season)

sure, we'[ve had a few more like Harden, Luka etc but it's a relatively new phenomenon
past players with past rules didn't reach such heights (rarely)

Young Jordan for a full season, hit 38% only once in 86-87 and played 40 mpg as well
most of his career including his prime he was at around 32-33%

Giannis is using up more possesions than prime Jordan, hard to wrap ur head around ain't it?

taking so many shots and getting so many touches (more than past scorers who were better scorers and playmakers than Giannis) - results in a lot of points. does the current rules and the way the'yre enforced inflate that? sure, by not by that much

And it's not that hard to grab 20 boards when ur uber athletic, strong and with Giannis's size
especially when u play alongside the best box-out artist of his generation haha, who just loves to box out so his teammates can grab the board

it'll happen from time to time, back to back is an outlier but if u play ur odds long enough...

It’s hard to wrap my head around Giannis getting more possessions than MJ...

But my secondary thought based on what you said is this,

if we gonna now start respecting this historically high numbers then we need to say...it is possible to do this...and put more considerations into the the guy who these guys are challenging as the actual goat.

What I am saying is ....every time one of these records get challenged or fall....who’s record do you first think is being broken?

Jordan? Lebron? No....

It’s always Wilt.... Wilt Wilt Wilt....

Maybe the jumpman marketing fooled us

Maybe Wilt is the goat

[Bob8]

Or they will have to change the rules to stop all these historically high statistical outburst. Giannis going back to back 40/20 is insane. He is back on top or at least right there behind Jokic again...

how are current rules impacting Giannis rebounds?
scoring, sure but he would score plenty in any era \ rules

his usage is first in the league, WB broke the all time usage record in 16-17 with about 41% iirce
Giannis is 37-38% (just like last season)

sure, we'[ve had a few more like Harden, Luka etc but it's a relatively new phenomenon
past players with past rules didn't reach such heights (rarely)

Young Jordan for a full season, hit 38% only once in 86-87 and played 40 mpg as well
most of his career including his prime he was at around 32-33%

Giannis is using up more possesions than prime Jordan, hard to wrap ur head around ain't it?

taking so many shots and getting so many touches (more than past scorers who were better scorers and playmakers than Giannis) - results in a lot of points. does the current rules and the way the'yre enforced inflate that? sure, by not by that much

And it's not that hard to grab 20 boards when ur uber athletic, strong and with Giannis's size
especially when u play alongside the best box-out artist of his generation haha, who just loves to box out so his teammates can grab the board

it'll happen from time to time, back to back is an outlier but if u play ur odds long enough...

It’s hard to wrap my head around Giannis getting more possessions than MJ...

But my secondary thought based on what you said is this,

if we gonna now start respecting this historically high numbers then we need to say...it is possible to do this...and put more considerations into the the guy who these guys are challenging as the actual goat.

What I am saying is ....every time one of these records get challenged or fall....who’s record do you first think is being broken?

Jordan? Lebron? No....

It’s always Wilt.... Wilt Wilt Wilt....

Maybe the jumpman marketing fooled us

Maybe Wilt is the goat

https://stathead.com/tiny/Bcfzk

[juanc]

Dear Americans!

I come from the future - the year of 2023! And I am here to tell you this is the year when Luka Dončić gets his first MVP award!

Happy new year yall!

[ty 4191]

What I am saying is ....every time one of these records get challenged or fall....who’s record do you first think is being broken?

Jordan? Lebron? No....

It’s always Wilt.... Wilt Wilt Wilt....

Maybe the jumpman marketing fooled us

Maybe Wilt is the goat

Why couldn't he be?

[Stribor]

Or they will have to change the rules to stop all these historically high statistical outburst. Giannis going back to back 40/20 is insane. He is back on top or at least right there behind Jokic again...

how are current rules impacting Giannis rebounds?
scoring, sure but he would score plenty in any era \ rules

his usage is first in the league, WB broke the all time usage record in 16-17 with about 41% iirce
Giannis is 37-38% (just like last season)

sure, we'[ve had a few more like Harden, Luka etc but it's a relatively new phenomenon
past players with past rules didn't reach such heights (rarely)

Young Jordan for a full season, hit 38% only once in 86-87 and played 40 mpg as well
most of his career including his prime he was at around 32-33%

Giannis is using up more possesions than prime Jordan, hard to wrap ur head around ain't it?

taking so many shots and getting so many touches (more than past scorers who were better scorers and playmakers than Giannis) - results in a lot of points. does the current rules and the way the'yre enforced inflate that? sure, by not by that much

And it's not that hard to grab 20 boards when ur uber athletic, strong and with Giannis's size
especially when u play alongside the best box-out artist of his generation haha, who just loves to box out so his teammates can grab the board

it'll happen from time to time, back to back is an outlier but if u play ur odds long enough...

It’s hard to wrap my head around Giannis getting more possessions than MJ...

But my secondary thought based on what you said is this,

if we gonna now start respecting this historically high numbers then we need to say...it is possible to do this...and put more considerations into the the guy who these guys are challenging as the actual goat.

What I am saying is ....every time one of these records get challenged or fall....who’s record do you first think is being broken?

Jordan? Lebron? No....

It’s always Wilt.... Wilt Wilt Wilt....

Maybe the jumpman marketing fooled us

Maybe Wilt is the goat

I think he is ... although I always support Jordan claim BUT it is true that NBA as a business changed officiating to help Jordan, while in Wilt era they were doing everything to make him less powerful, and he is still the guys with all the records.

[Andri]

Lmao, that's a wild take. The dude has far and away the most shots at the rim and has taken the most contact on his way there, I don't think that's even debatable at this point, is it? Nobody plays through and with more contact right now, he literally doesn't shoot unless it's a collision at the rim.

And despite that, he's 9th in FTA, some guys are shooting 4-5 more attempts per game. He's like 0.6 ahead of rookie Paolo Banchero. There are sub 200 pound jump shooting guards ahead of him. How many should he be shooting per game? 5? 6? Where is the line drawn for the most prolific paint attacker in the league?

Zion is not MVP, but he's very far from special treatment with fouls. He's getting the benefit of the doubt way less than his contemporaries, as it's he and Giannis way out ahead of the pack in interior attempts, and a bigger chunk of Giannis' are on fast break in less congested conditions (Zion is leading the league by a small margin in shots inside 5 feet, right ahead of Giannis. 5.7 of Giannis attempts are in transition compared to 2.5 for Zion).

This narrative that he's getting calls and other guys aren't is insanely laughable. It's like you guys want something to be real so bad so you can be mad and try to speak it into existence.

Hey, yesterday even the Pel's crew (the best by far in the league IMO) recognized during the game in 2 specific fouls that there was little contact or not at all. Take what happened with the elbow to Gobert's face two days ago.

Saying 'insanely laughable' is quite lame to be honest. And who are 'you guys'? I root for Zion, so drop that automatic reactions and try to listen a little bit more.

Pointing out two fouls on a guy that is involved in contact 20+ drives IS laughable.

There’s no way that you can make a case that Zion is getting the most undeserved calls compared to his fellow stars that are absorbing a lot less contact and shooting a lot more foul shots, but anecdotal evidence might be the worst.

But since the Pels commentary team is the holy grail of analysis, they’ve been complaining all year that he doesn’t get nearly enough compared to other stars that get hit a lot less.

I really don’t complain about foul shots because I think Zion and his opponents get away with a lot of contact against each other and it’s kind of how it should be called.

But compared to other MVP guys listed? Totally laughable. Dudes are flopping, flailing and falling their way to more free throws than the dude setting a new standard for amount of times attacking the rim in the half court

You can list whatever hyperbole (holy grail of what? Seriously? I had made a case of what?), you should think you are the holy grail of a lot things.

Waste of time. The moment you are into discussing how some really bad calls can impact perception about Zion is progressing, let me know. Happy new year!