Make Your Best Offer: Gordon Hayward

[NYG]

The issue here is that Gordan Haywood is negative salary. Unless the Hornets are willing to take on even worse salary than his, they won't get any value for Haywood and likely have to attach assets if they want any decent value players.

You think Fournier and Rose gets it done?

[Colbinii]

Charlotte is 7-12 when Hayward plays. They’re 3-14 when he doesn’t play. I think they’d say that he’s still a major positive impact on winning for them.

Keep in mind 8 of the 19 games Hayward played in were with Ball [Ball has played in just 12 games].

The sample size is really small [19 games with, 17 games without] and his +/- family numbers aren't great [+4.4 On/Off].

Hayward is still a positive player [I wouldnt say major but thats a subjective term] but he misses time [a lot of time] which doesn't justify his current contract.

I dont see Charlotte doing the deal unless one of the protected 1sts are coming back.

Fournier + Rose + Protected 1st which becomes 2nds for Hayward

I have 1st owed by Hornets.

It doesn't matter though what you think of the value in a vacuum.

Charlotte isn't doing the deal unless a real asset is coming back.

New York likely doesn't do the deal either but if they think Hayward gets them into the post-season, then they may consider the 1st.

[Resistance]

How much value are Hornets willing to add to Hayward?

Is Hayward playing well enough to not be considered negative value?

He is negative value

So the Knicks could get him for Fournier and Rose?

I thought that the Knicks are in a youth movement and trying to shift away from older players.

Since Reddish might not be back next season, maybe the Knicks will draft a Wing. If Hayward is there, then the Rookie Wing won't get many minutes.............until Hayward gets injured.

[Wolveswin]

Keep in mind 8 of the 19 games Hayward played in were with Ball [Ball has played in just 12 games].

The sample size is really small [19 games with, 17 games without] and his +/- family numbers aren't great [+4.4 On/Off].

Hayward is still a positive player [I wouldnt say major but thats a subjective term] but he misses time [a lot of time] which doesn't justify his current contract.

I dont see Charlotte doing the deal unless one of the protected 1sts are coming back.

Fournier + Rose + Protected 1st which becomes 2nds for Hayward

I have 1st owed by Hornets.

It doesn't matter though what you think of the value in a vacuum.

Charlotte isn't doing the deal unless a real asset is coming back.

New York likely doesn't do the deal either but if they think Hayward gets them into the post-season, then they may consider the 1st.

Well if you think that Knicks think Hayward is their difference maker (more than what healthy Fournier +
Rose does) at cost of a 1st, sure use those subjective variables to make your case.

[jbk1234]

He is negative value

So the Knicks could get him for Fournier and Rose?

Why would Knicks do that? Fournier last year is TO, so he is same length as Hayward but less money. Rose is expiring on TO. Knicks would say no to Hayward zapping their cap flexibility.

Well, Fournier has been wracking up DNPs and even at 80% of what he use to be, Hayward is the better player.

[Colbinii]

I have 1st owed by Hornets.

It doesn't matter though what you think of the value in a vacuum.

Charlotte isn't doing the deal unless a real asset is coming back.

New York likely doesn't do the deal either but if they think Hayward gets them into the post-season, then they may consider the 1st.

Well if you think that Knicks think Hayward is their difference maker (more than what healthy Fournier +
Rose does) at cost of a 1st, sure use those subjective variables to make your case.

Healthy Fournier...is that like a unicorn or a mermaid?

[jbk1234]

I'd think about Cedi and LeVert for Hayward and asking for a couple of seconds back, but really, I just don't trust Hayward to stay healthy. I think I'd rather struggle with spacing this season and find a more reliable option this summer.

[Wolveswin]

So the Knicks could get him for Fournier and Rose?

Why would Knicks do that? Fournier last year is TO, so he is same length as Hayward but less money. Rose is expiring on TO. Knicks would say no to Hayward zapping their cap flexibility.

Well, Fournier has been wracking up DNPs and even at 80% of what he use to be, Hayward is the better player.

Fournier is the devil they know at the price that is better. Trading for Hayward isn’t JUST a debatable upgrade with own equal health risks, it’s being on the hook for a lot more money and less flexibility. Hayward isn’t that good.

[jbk1234]

Why would Knicks do that? Fournier last year is TO, so he is same length as Hayward but less money. Rose is expiring on TO. Knicks would say no to Hayward zapping their cap flexibility.

Well, Fournier has been wracking up DNPs and even at 80% of what he use to be, Hayward is the better player.

Fournier is the devil they know at the price that is better. Trading for Hayward isn’t JUST a debatable upgrade with own equal health risks, it’s being on the hook for a lot more money and less flexibility. Hayward isn’t that good.

If you see Fournier and Hayward as comparable players when healthy, then we just have a fundamental disagreement that we're not going to get past.

[Texas Chuck]

I was about to say it looks my Mavs offers are the best. But if jbk and Cleveland were really okay with his, I think that's a deal the Hornets should take.

And I get the risk factor for the Cavs causing him pause. Mavs are in a different situation so maybe they move back to the front of this line?

But I find it hilarous that Fournier makes $20M and offers nothing at all because the coach won't play him and we are asking if Hayward is more valuable? IT's like signing him to less than an MLE deal. And getting to dump Rose the first year. No way the Hornets owe the Knicks value there. If anything its the absolute opposite.

[NYG]

I was about to say it looks my Mavs offers are the best. But if jbk and Cleveland were really okay with his, I think that's a deal the Hornets should take.

And I get the risk factor for the Cavs causing him pause. Mavs are in a different situation so maybe they move back to the front of this line?

But I find it hilarous that Fournier makes $20M and offers nothing at all because the coach won't play him and we are asking if Hayward is more valuable? IT's like signing him to less than an MLE deal. And getting to dump Rose the first year. No way the Hornets owe the Knicks value there. If anything its the absolute opposite.

Yeah I'm surprised everyone seems so low on Hayward versus Fournier.

[NYG]

Also, what would the Mavs offer?

[Wolveswin]

Well, Fournier has been wracking up DNPs and even at 80% of what he use to be, Hayward is the better player.

Fournier is the devil they know at the price that is better. Trading for Hayward isn’t JUST a debatable upgrade with own equal health risks, it’s being on the hook for a lot more money and less flexibility. Hayward isn’t that good.

If you see Fournier and Hayward as comparable players when healthy, then we just have a fundamental disagreement that we're not going to get past.

It’s not what I am saying. And if you are reading that (being I never typed that - typed opposite really) not sure I can help you. Hayward (and any player) value is a lot more than production. Is Hayward producing more than Fournier right now: of course. Is that production Delta (including what Rose provided) worth Knicks zapping their cap flexibility and paying more for Hayward next season (vs Fournier and expired Rose): nope. And no way they are adding a 1st unless highly protected fake 1st.

[Wolveswin]

I was about to say it looks my Mavs offers are the best. But if jbk and Cleveland were really okay with his, I think that's a deal the Hornets should take.

And I get the risk factor for the Cavs causing him pause. Mavs are in a different situation so maybe they move back to the front of this line?

But I find it hilarous that Fournier makes $20M and offers nothing at all because the coach won't play him and we are asking if Hayward is more valuable? IT's like signing him to less than an MLE deal. And getting to dump Rose the first year. No way the Hornets owe the Knicks value there. If anything its the absolute opposite.

Yeah I'm surprised everyone seems so low on Hayward versus Fournier.

Where are people saying Fournier and Hayward are similar production players? Just thought obvious way more goes into evaluating value of players than production.

[Texas Chuck]

Also, what would the Mavs offer?

I have a variety of structures I have offered over the past several months. Best one is probably Bertans to Charlotte, Bullock to a 3rd team for an expiring and minor asset which goes to Charlotte along with something else minor from Dallas unless Bullock returns more than this board thinks. Something like Bertans/expiring/2 2nds/Jaden Hardy? Hornets cut his deal in half next year, take on $5M in dead the year after and get some minor incentives since Bertans is a much worse player.

But it could be different. Could be Powell/McGee to Charlotte, Bullock to 3rd team with expiring to Charlotte, now the Bullock incentive goes to Dallas along with the worst young big Charlotte wants to send Dallas.

Or it could involve Wood to a 3rd team--or to Charlotte potentially if they want to try him out and think they want to compete next year.

Or something else. But I think the first two are the most logical.

[Scoot McGroot]

Hayward has been pretty bad when healthy I guess? I don't watch a ton of Charlotte games

Charlotte is 7-12 when Hayward plays. They’re 3-14 when he doesn’t play. I think they’d say that he’s still a major positive impact on winning for them.

Is he even a talent upgrade to Fournier at this point?

He absolutely is. Wildly so.

Hayward has been pretty bad when healthy I guess? I don't watch a ton of Charlotte games

Charlotte is 7-12 when Hayward plays. They’re 3-14 when he doesn’t play. I think they’d say that he’s still a major positive impact on winning for them.

Keep in mind 8 of the 19 games Hayward played in were with Ball [Ball has played in just 12 games].

The sample size is really small [19 games with, 17 games without] and his +/- family numbers aren't great [+4.4 On/Off].

Hayward is still a positive player [I wouldnt say major but thats a subjective term] but he misses time [a lot of time] which doesn't justify his current contract.

I dont see Charlotte doing the deal unless one of the protected 1sts are coming back.

Fournier + Rose + Protected 1st which becomes 2nds for Hayward

I don’t disagree in any way. I’m merely pointing out that Charlotte, a team that probably doesn’t have a ton of interest in entering free agency in a major way in a very down free agent offseason, probably still values wins above all, and they can probably easily convince (fool?) themselves that Hayward is very important to that.

I just think that Charlotte would want something to hang their hats on. Maybe they can sell a depressed value young player like Reddish? I don’t know. Maybe it’s a top 20 protected first? I don’t know. But I bet they’d want something. They’re the same front office that signed Hayward to that deal, so I bet they wouldn’t be prepared to cut bait for just some cap savings and paint their premiere signing as bad money right now.

[Scoot McGroot]

As a Pacers fan, I’d like for them to not consider an offer, but I bet they would. A Buddy Hield makes little sense for Charlotte, but a straight swap of Buddy for Hayward would make sense for Indy, positionally. I also fear that Indy would basically swap Buddy for Hayward, and then use the rest of the cap space to renegotiate and extend Turner and basically call it a rebuild and say their a “win-now” team.

[jbk1234]

Fournier is the devil they know at the price that is better. Trading for Hayward isn’t JUST a debatable upgrade with own equal health risks, it’s being on the hook for a lot more money and less flexibility. Hayward isn’t that good.

If you see Fournier and Hayward as comparable players when healthy, then we just have a fundamental disagreement that we're not going to get past.

It’s not what I am saying. And if you are reading that (being I never typed that - typed opposite really) not sure I can help you. Hayward (and any player) value is a lot more than production. Is Hayward producing more than Fournier right now: of course. Is that production Delta (including what Rose provided) worth Knicks zapping their cap flexibility and paying more for Hayward next season (vs Fournier and expired Rose): nope. And no way they are adding a 1st unless highly protected fake 1st.

Guys getting DNP'd as much as Fournier have league minimum value. Derrick Rose has started zero games this season, only played in 25, and looked pretty washed in the 13 MPG he's played when he was out there. Pretty close to league minimum value on Rose as well. So if you're paying for production, and Hayward can stay on the court, Hayward is clearly the better investment of those dollars this year. The delta between what Fourneir's owed next season, and what he's likely to provide is going to be in excess of $15M per unless something dramatically changes. I'm knocking that $15M in salary wasted on Fournier off of what's owed to Hayward before doing my calculus. The only value cost to the Knicks is the possibility of getting stuck paying the luxury tax.

[mg]

I'd think about Cedi and LeVert for Hayward and asking for a couple of seconds back, but really, I just don't trust Hayward to stay healthy. I think I'd rather struggle with spacing this season and find a more reliable option this summer.

I don't think Cavs go into the tax this season for Hayward which would happen here. With Garland's injury they might need LeVert the next few weeks too.

Love for Hayward would work without them going into the tax. Love is an expiring if Charlotte wants the salary off their books. This would take the Cavs into the tax next season with Hayward's salary limiting any other moves they could potentially make in terms of LeVert deals, etc at the deadline or this summer.

[Texas Chuck]

I don’t disagree in any way. I’m merely pointing out that Charlotte, a team that probably doesn’t have a ton of interest in entering free agency in a major way in a very down free agent offseason, probably still values wins above all, and they can probably easily convince (fool?) themselves that Hayward is very important to that.

I just think that Charlotte would want something to hang their hats on. Maybe they can sell a depressed value young player like Reddish? I don’t know. Maybe it’s a top 20 protected first? I don’t know. But I bet they’d want something. They’re the same front office that signed Hayward to that deal, so I bet they wouldn’t be prepared to cut bait for just some cap savings and paint their premiere signing as bad money right now.

I think you make really good points.

I also think its possible they are more ready to move on from this specific player than this. They may not be, but I think when his wife got publicly involved with some ugly accusations regarding on how they treated his injury, I think it at least opens the question up more for me.

But that's pure speculation and perhaps reading too much into it for me, and if I'm fully honest maybe some wishful thinking because if he comes free he's probably the best player Dallas could in theory get without having to trade stuff they shouldn't be traded if not for a legit 2nd banana.

Charlotte and Jordan definitely have never been interested in a long-term tanking. I think that market is one of the most challenging ones in the whole league and I think for as competitive as Mike was as a player, he seems to have very different priorities governing a team.