Draymond's all-time defensive ranking among PFs?

[kcktiny]

I think Green peaked clearly higher than Rodman and he's more consistent career-wise.

Curious to your thoughts as to why.

I ask as Green was DPOY once, all-defensive 1st team 4 times.

Rodman was DPOY twice, all-defensive 1st team 8 times.

Only 3 non-Cs ever won back-to-back DPOY awards - Sidney Moncrief, Kawhi Leonard, and Rodman.

Rodman did so against two really great defensive Cs in David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon. I'd say that's one helluva defensive peak.

And 8 vs. 4 all-D 1st team honors seems like a more consistent career defensively.

[70sFan]

I think Green peaked clearly higher than Rodman and he's more consistent career-wise.

Curious to your thoughts as to why.

I ask as Green was DPOY once, all-defensive 1st team 4 times.

Rodman was DPOY twice, all-defensive 1st team 8 times.

Only 3 non-Cs ever won back-to-back DPOY awards - Sidney Moncrief, Kawhi Leonard, and Rodman.

Rodman did so against two really great defensive Cs in David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon. I'd say that's one helluva defensive peak.

And 8 vs. 4 all-D 1st team honors seems like a more consistent career defensively.

Because I do not rank players defense based on awards.

[AEnigma]

Mark Eaton was the only big to win Defensive Player of the Year during the award’s first nine years.

Anyway, I would have Draymond third or fourth, depending on how much we want to credit Hayes’ longevity.

[Colbinii]

I would have him as a clear #2 next to KG

I assume you have Duncan as a center?

Yeah I do view him as a Center and I've debated viewing KG in that way as well.

I dont think its wild to have both Draymond and KG > Duncan defensively though, especially with an emphasis on versatility.

[Doctor MJ]

Definitely, at this point I can see him as high as 3rd.

He's definitely Top 3 for me.

[Doctor MJ]

I think Green peaked clearly higher than Rodman and he's more consistent career-wise.

Curious to your thoughts as to why.

I ask as Green was DPOY once, all-defensive 1st team 4 times.

Rodman was DPOY twice, all-defensive 1st team 8 times.

Only 3 non-Cs ever won back-to-back DPOY awards - Sidney Moncrief, Kawhi Leonard, and Rodman.

Rodman did so against two really great defensive Cs in David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon. I'd say that's one helluva defensive peak.

And 8 vs. 4 all-D 1st team honors seems like a more consistent career defensively.

Because I do not rank players defense based on awards.

And to tweak that:

I do not substitute other people's opinions for my own.
This is the case when talking about opinions that I think are clearly more informed than my own...though I wouldn't actually say that about MVP voters tbh.

In my case, I have Green as DPOY 4-times, I don't have Rodman as DPOY ever, so...pretty easy to see how I might put Green above Rodman.

[Doctor MJ]

I would have him as a clear #2 next to KG

I assume you have Duncan as a center?

Yeah I do view him as a Center and I've debated viewing KG in that way as well.

I dont think its wild to have both Draymond and KG > Duncan defensively though, especially with an emphasis on versatility.

Prime-wise, I do.

[OhayoKD]

Curious to your thoughts as to why.

I ask as Green was DPOY once, all-defensive 1st team 4 times.

Rodman was DPOY twice, all-defensive 1st team 8 times.

Only 3 non-Cs ever won back-to-back DPOY awards - Sidney Moncrief, Kawhi Leonard, and Rodman.

Rodman did so against two really great defensive Cs in David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon. I'd say that's one helluva defensive peak.

And 8 vs. 4 all-D 1st team honors seems like a more consistent career defensively.

Because I do not rank players defense based on awards.

And to tweak that:

I do not substitute other people's opinions for my own.
This is the case when talking about opinions that I think are clearly more informed than my own...though I wouldn't actually say that about MVP voters tbh.

In my case, I have Green as DPOY 4-times, I don't have Rodman as DPOY ever, so...pretty easy to see how I might put Green above Rodman.

Considering playoff resiliency, is it crazy to see Draymond as having the best post-russell defensive prime?

I guess in his era, you could argue Giannis is equally resilient and may translate better in previous contexts and AD/Giannis have cases as better defensive peaks.

[VanWest82]

Draymond has had an incredible run. He's arguably the greatest non-big help defender of all time. But let's be real - his man defense leaves something to be desired. I'm not even talking about him getting lit up by KD, Lebron, and Jokic. Siakam did him dirty in the Finals, the important games anyway. Trez rekt him in the first round a few years ago. LMA that last KD year. AD got him too same playoffs though less than some might've expected. The list who got him in the RS over the years is lonnnnnggg.

One can make the argument that help defense is more important than man, but man is still really important. Rodman made life miserable for Bird. He admirably defended Shaq and Mailman. When he couldn't guard MJ, he hipchecked him out of midair to get the upper hand in 90 ECF. That one play was the difference in the series. He was the OG 1-5 defender. Rodman > Draymond.

[70sFan]

I would have him as a clear #2 next to KG

I assume you have Duncan as a center?

Yeah I do view him as a Center and I've debated viewing KG in that way as well.

I dont think its wild to have both Draymond and KG > Duncan defensively though, especially with an emphasis on versatility.

It probably isn't wild, although I'm not sure why people think "versatility" is only related to switchability. Duncan was a very versatile defender himself, just in different ways.

[ronnymac2]

A dynasty was built upon Draymond's defensive prowess, so I'd say his ranking is pretty damn high. It just depends on how you categorize Duncan and Garnett (PF or C). In my honest opinion, his greatest competition (excluding the aforementioned) are Rodman, Debusschere, and Jones. I'd take Draymond over all three, with all due respect to those defensive demons. Rodman especially because of his combined crazy defensive rebound rates, man defense, and MPG. Worm might be the most underappreciated physical specimen in NBA history.

[Warriors Analyst]

Draymond has had an incredible run. He's arguably the greatest non-big help defender of all time. But let's be real - his man defense leaves something to be desired. I'm not even talking about him getting lit up by KD, Lebron, and Jokic. Siakam did him dirty in the Finals, the important games anyway. Trez rekt him in the first round a few years ago. LMA that last KD year. AD got him too same playoffs though less than some might've expected. The list who got him in the RS over the years is lonnnnnggg.

One can make the argument that help defense is more important than man, but man is still really important. Rodman made life miserable for Bird. He admirably defended Shaq and Mailman. When he couldn't guard MJ, he hipchecked him out of midair to get the upper hand in 90 ECF. That one play was the difference in the series. He was the OG 1-5 defender. Rodman > Draymond.

Don't agree with this at all. Jokic was the two-time MVP and he still shot under his averages. In the biggest game of that series, Game 3, Draymond got the game-sealing steal against Jokic in the post in single coverage. Draymond does as a good a job as anyone can against Jokic and he's sound enough that the Warriors mostly avoided doubling Jokic when Dray defended him. Aldridge shot under his season average in that 2018 series you're referencing, as has AD every time the Warriors have faced him in the playoffs.

As for 2019: Siakam performed very well in those finals by attacking tilted defenses. A big part of that was Draymond covering for some very bad combinations of defensive players after KD went out and with Klay + Looney each missing a game. I don't remember Trez being Draymond's primary matchup, but I'm willing to grant you that one.

But Draymond getting lit up by KD and LeBron? Are we talking about the 2016 WCF when KD shot 42.3/28.6/91.8 splits against the Warriors? KD wasn't Draymond's primary matchup -- that was Andre's role, as was LeBron -- but if you want a good example of Draymond vs. KD, you can go look at the Warriors' road blowout of the Nets last winter where Draymond did get a fair amount of possessions against KD on a night that he shot 6/19 from the field.

[Doctor MJ]

Because I do not rank players defense based on awards.

And to tweak that:

I do not substitute other people's opinions for my own.
This is the case when talking about opinions that I think are clearly more informed than my own...though I wouldn't actually say that about MVP voters tbh.

In my case, I have Green as DPOY 4-times, I don't have Rodman as DPOY ever, so...pretty easy to see how I might put Green above Rodman.

Considering playoff resiliency, is it crazy to see Draymond as having the best post-russell defensive prime?

I guess in his era, you could argue Giannis is equally resilient and may translate better in previous contexts and AD/Giannis have cases as better defensive peaks.

No, I think it needs to be strongly considered.

I will say that I still have a hard time believing that Draymond physical build is the ideal build over guys like Russell, and so while I'm happy to point to Draymond's brain to explain the difference in many cases, I'm extremely impressed by Garnett's brain too.

I do think that when talking about total defensive careers, Garnett's is a weird. Draymond, if he can keep this thing going for long enough, may well end up having the biggest cumulative defensive impact (post-Russell).

[falcolombardi]

Draymond has had an incredible run. He's arguably the greatest non-big help defender of all time. But let's be real - his man defense leaves something to be desired. I'm not even talking about him getting lit up by KD, Lebron, and Jokic. Siakam did him dirty in the Finals, the important games anyway. Trez rekt him in the first round a few years ago. LMA that last KD year. AD got him too same playoffs though less than some might've expected. The list who got him in the RS over the years is lonnnnnggg.

One can make the argument that help defense is more important than man, but man is still really important. Rodman made life miserable for Bird. He admirably defended Shaq and Mailman. When he couldn't guard MJ, he hipchecked him out of midair to get the upper hand in 90 ECF. That one play was the difference in the series. He was the OG 1-5 defender. Rodman > Draymond.

Don't agree with this at all. Jokic was the two-time MVP and he still shot under his averages. In the biggest game of that series, Game 3, Draymond got the game-sealing steal against Jokic in the post in single coverage. Draymond does as a good a job as anyone can against Jokic and he's sound enough that the Warriors mostly avoided doubling Jokic when Dray defended him. Aldridge shot under his season average in that 2018 series you're referencing, as has AD every time the Warriors have faced him in the playoffs.

As for 2019: Siakam performed very well in those finals by attacking tilted defenses. A big part of that was Draymond covering for some very bad combinations of defensive players after KD went out and with Klay + Looney each missing a game. I don't remember Trez being Draymond's primary matchup, but I'm willing to grant you that one.

But Draymond getting lit up by KD and LeBron? Are we talking about the 2016 WCF when KD shot 42.3/28.6/91.8 splits against the Warriors? KD wasn't Draymond's primary matchup -- that was Andre's role, as was LeBron -- but if you want a good example of Draymond vs. KD, you can go look at the Warriors' road blowout of the Nets last winter where Draymond did get a fair amount of possessions against KD on a night that he shot 6/19 from the field.

Because center defense is as or more important to stop perimeter players than the player guarding them directly, specially so for inside scorers like lebron