NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[eyeatoma]

Why would Jokic fans have a problem with that? Isn't it saying Jokic will be unfairly taken away his MVP even though he is still the best?

What he was saying was that for Jokic to win another MVP he needs to get a chip. Not sure if he agrees with it, but this is the stance I've repeated on here. The media won't allow him to win another one unless he gets one.

The bar raises for him yet again

When it was looking like he won't have the record, he needed the #1 seed

When he got #1 seed, you said he needed to be clear #1 seed implying a decent margin between #1 and #2

Now the media won't allow it no matter what happens this season

Meanwhile, during all of this, he's put up some great games and only improved statistically...

I've said all three things the entire time.

[JN61]

I gotta go with an order of
Doncic
Durant
Jokic
Tatum

as of now.

Why Durant over Jokic? Because they looked like total disaster at start of the season and their winning streak has been so impressive. This all while Durant is in his usual style producing just on top tier level all in quietness. Also Doncic leading because weaker supporting cast and is just a few games behind top teams in the league.

[JN61]

Hopefully some of you guys start to realize how inflated these offensive stats are compared to precious eras.

Donovan Mitchell next to wilt and mj, lol

But the 60s and 80s also had inflated offensive stats? Don't tell me you thought that it's happening now for the first time?

back then stats were ''inflated'' because pace of the game. Not because the league rules HEAVILY favoring offensive player and making 1v1 defense impossible.

[toooskies]

Hopefully some of you guys start to realize how inflated these offensive stats are compared to precious eras.

Donovan Mitchell next to wilt and mj, lol

But the 60s and 80s also had inflated offensive stats? Don't tell me you thought that it's happening now for the first time?

back then stats were ''inflated'' because pace of the game. Not because the league rules HEAVILY favoring offensive player and making 1v1 defense impossible.

The quality of defense in today's NBA in the regular season is probably better than it was in the 80s, even despite the enforcement of the rules.

True shooting was 54% or so in the 80s and 90s and only 58% or so now, and much of that is due to the 3-point shot becoming more prevalent.

[Dutchball97]

Hopefully some of you guys start to realize how inflated these offensive stats are compared to precious eras.

Donovan Mitchell next to wilt and mj, lol

But the 60s and 80s also had inflated offensive stats? Don't tell me you thought that it's happening now for the first time?

back then stats were ''inflated'' because pace of the game. Not because the league rules HEAVILY favoring offensive player and making 1v1 defense impossible.

How does that get reflected though? In the current season teams shoot 23.6 FTA per game on average. The lowest leage average FTA in the 80s is 27.8 in 1980 and the lowest with Jordan in the league in the 80s is 28.8 in 1989, in the 60s the lowest is 35 FTA per game in 64 and 69. A similar thing we see for personal fouls with the current season having 20.5, while the lowest in the 80s is 24.1 in 1988 and the lowest in the 60s is 1969 with 25.5.

[Genjuro]

I don't think Jokic can win the MVP a third time without a championship ring. I feel there is a definite wall in NBA when it comes to this.

Luka will win it this year I think. LeBron was 24 when he won his first MVP, Luka will be 24 too.

I guess you mean consecutive, because Wilt, Moses and LeBron won three before getting a championship. That's three out of eight players that have won at least three MVPs.

[liquidswords]

Bringing up my MVP argument and considering "unprecedented" over "best player on best team" (lazy)...Luka and Joker have to be the top 2 candidates as long as their teams finish comfortably at the top of the playoff race in the West. What everyone else is doing is "nice" but we've seen it before. Luka is somehow leveling up his play while being more efficient (i knocked him hard on this the past couple years) and Joker is defying logic and building on his 2 MVP seasons.

[BelgradeNugget]

About Jokic's defense:

"For some, his spotty defense is large enough a blemish to go in another direction. Giannis, Jayson Tatum, Kevin Durant, or last year’s MVP runner-up Joel Embiid all have a tangibly positive effect on that side of the floor. So the criticism is fair. The easy rebuttal is that Jokic is not a bad defender, just one who’s forced to make some concessions (and who doesn’t care that kick balls are illegal).

Overall, the Nuggets allow only 1.08 points per possession when he’s the screener’s defender guarding a pick-and-roll. That’s the same as Brook Lopez. When Jokic is up to touch—which is how Michael Malone prefers to use him—opponents generate only 0.91 points on direct possessions. That’s stout. He’s also beloved by catch-all defensive metrics and Denver has a top-10 defense when Jokic is on the court. So he’s not Bam Adebayo and will never win Defensive Player of the Year. But he’s no sieve, either."

As we all know Jokic is not all-defense candidate but some people still put blame on him for Nuggets bad DEFRTG.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/1/2/23535093/nba-predictions-finals-mvp-draft-2023

[Infinite Llamas]

About Jokic's defense:

"For some, his spotty defense is large enough a blemish to go in another direction. Giannis, Jayson Tatum, Kevin Durant, or last year’s MVP runner-up Joel Embiid all have a tangibly positive effect on that side of the floor. So the criticism is fair. The easy rebuttal is that Jokic is not a bad defender, just one who’s forced to make some concessions (and who doesn’t care that kick balls are illegal).

Overall, the Nuggets allow only 1.08 points per possession when he’s the screener’s defender guarding a pick-and-roll. That’s the same as Brook Lopez. When Jokic is up to touch—which is how Michael Malone prefers to use him—opponents generate only 0.91 points on direct possessions. That’s stout. He’s also beloved by catch-all defensive metrics and Denver has a top-10 defense when Jokic is on the court. So he’s not Bam Adebayo and will never win Defensive Player of the Year. But he’s no sieve, either."

As we all know Jokic is not all-defense candidate but some people still put blame on him for Nuggets bad DEFRTG.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/1/2/23535093/nba-predictions-finals-mvp-draft-2023

People blame him because he can’t guard Steph Curry.

A center…

Not being able to guard Steph Curry…

There isn’t a big man in the league that can hang with these elite guards on the perimeter.

Jokic gives up some easy ones at the rim too because it’s a better option than fouling out.

[cam24thomas]

Bringing up my MVP argument and considering "unprecedented" over "best player on best team" (lazy)...Luka and Joker have to be the top 2 candidates as long as their teams finish comfortably at the top of the playoff race in the West. What everyone else is doing is "nice" but we've seen it before. Luka is somehow leveling up his play while being more efficient (i knocked him hard on this the past couple years) and Joker is defying logic and building on his 2 MVP seasons.

Doncic isn't better than KD though. Sure Doncic is a better playmaker and ball-hog, but KD is a better shooter (from everywhere) and defender.

[Woodsanity]

Bringing up my MVP argument and considering "unprecedented" over "best player on best team" (lazy)...Luka and Joker have to be the top 2 candidates as long as their teams finish comfortably at the top of the playoff race in the West. What everyone else is doing is "nice" but we've seen it before. Luka is somehow leveling up his play while being more efficient (i knocked him hard on this the past couple years) and Joker is defying logic and building on his 2 MVP seasons.

Doncic isn't better than KD though. Sure Doncic is a better playmaker and ball-hog, but KD is a better shooter (from everywhere) and defender.

Playmaking makes a big difference. You would think a Ben Simmons fanboy would know this.

Also Luka its harder to be efficient the higher your volume. Luka is scoring 34.3 ppg on an efficient 62 TS%. Not as efficient as KD sure but he doesn't have Kyrie to take the load off him and make things easier.

[liquidswords]

Bringing up my MVP argument and considering "unprecedented" over "best player on best team" (lazy)...Luka and Joker have to be the top 2 candidates as long as their teams finish comfortably at the top of the playoff race in the West. What everyone else is doing is "nice" but we've seen it before. Luka is somehow leveling up his play while being more efficient (i knocked him hard on this the past couple years) and Joker is defying logic and building on his 2 MVP seasons.

Doncic isn't better than KD though. Sure Doncic is a better playmaker and ball-hog, but KD is a better shooter (from everywhere) and defender.

Playmaking makes a big difference. You would think a Ben Simmons fanboy would know this.

Also Luka its harder to be efficient the higher your volume. Luka is scoring 34.3 ppg on an efficient 62 TS%. Not as efficient as KD sure but he doesn't have Kyrie to take the load off him and make things easier.

THIS but also are we still doing the "player a is better than player b" for MVP? I'm so sick of these flimsy arguments for MVP. Shouldn't be best player on best team and shouldn't be the "best player" period. Not the point of the award.

[eyeatoma]

Joel Embiid is the NBA player of the month for the eastern conference in December. Yet somehow he's not a talked about MVP candidate, not even top 5 in the media, or that stupid NBA.com MVP ladder.

Media will do everything in its power to bring down Embiid. Now people are discussing him not being an All-star starter, lol.

Read on Twitter

[Woodsanity]

Joel Embiid is the NBA player of the month for the eastern conference in December. Yet somehow he's not a talked about candidate, not even top 5 in the media, or that stupid NBA.com MVP ladder.

Media will do everything in its power to bring down Embiid. Now people are discussing him not being an All-star starter, lol.

Read on Twitter

Well All star starter is literally just a popularity contest. Has nothing to do with actual ability.

Even Wiggins got in once.

[Duke4life831]

I know it can be annoying because of how often people bring it up. But it is pretty hard to overstate just how much harder it is for guys like Jokic/Luka who dont have that legit #2 option that defenses have to worry about. Defenses cant just 100% sell out on guys like KD, Tatum, and Embiid.

Kyrie: Since coming back from his suspension, hasnt missed a game and is averaging 26/5/4 on 52/42/90 shooting (64 TS%).
Brown: 27/7/3 on 59 TS%
Harden: 22/6/11 on 60 TS%

Having a 2nd option like these guys prevent teams from being able to just 100% sell out on KD/Tatum/Embiid. Compare that to Luka or Jokic. Its either Murray or Gordon for Jokic, or its Wood or Dinwiddie for Luka. Defenses will happily say, lets 100% focus on taking Jokic/Luka out and force those 2nd options to beat us.

I also want to be clear, I dont think having a legit #2 option should be some disqualifier for MVP either. I think the majority of MVP winners have a legit 2nd option. Its just when guys dont have a legit 2nd option and are still able to put up crazy efficiency numbers and lead their teams to good records, thats just a bonus for them.

[eyeatoma]

I know it can be annoying because of how often people bring it up. But it is pretty hard to overstate just how much harder it is for guys like Jokic/Luka who dont have that legit #2 option that defenses have to worry about. Defenses cant just 100% sell out on guys like KD, Tatum, and Embiid.

Kyrie: Since coming back from his suspension, hasnt missed a game and is averaging 26/5/4 on 52/42/90 shooting (64 TS%).
Brown: 27/7/3 on 59 TS%
Harden: 22/6/11 on 60 TS%

Having a 2nd option like these guys prevent teams from being able to just 100% sell out on KD/Tatum/Embiid. Compare that to Luka or Jokic. Its either Murray or Gordon for Jokic, or its Wood or Dinwiddie for Luka. Defenses will happily say, lets 100% focus on taking Jokic/Luka out and force those 2nd options to beat us.

I also want to be clear, I dont think having a legit #2 option should be some disqualifier for MVP either. I think the majority of MVP winners have a legit 2nd option. Its just when guys dont have a legit 2nd option and are still able to put up crazy efficiency numbers and lead their teams to good records, thats just a bonus for them.

Prior to Harden, Embiid had a 2nd year Maxey and Tobias Harris for much of the season last year. Better than Jokic's team and Luka's, but really not great. Maxey has taken a leap this year, and Harden is here. Tobias has bought in. But if you make that argument, why is Tatum a candidate? KD?

[eyeatoma]

Joel Embiid is the NBA player of the month for the eastern conference in December. Yet somehow he's not a talked about candidate, not even top 5 in the media, or that stupid NBA.com MVP ladder.

Media will do everything in its power to bring down Embiid. Now people are discussing him not being an All-star starter, lol.

Read on Twitter

Well All star starter is literally just a popularity contest. Has nothing to do with actual ability.

Even Wiggins got in once.

Fair enough lol

[iggymcfrack]

I don't think Jokic can win the MVP a third time without a championship ring. I feel there is a definite wall in NBA when it comes to this.

Luka will win it this year I think. LeBron was 24 when he won his first MVP, Luka will be 24 too.

Voters are a lot smarter and more analytically aware than they were in the past. There’s more information available and a lot of voters will use that to choose the best guy instead of just going with feel about who has a better narrative. There’s no wall. If Luka misses 15 games the rest of the way or his production dips, or they fall into the play-in, Jokic very likely does win the MVP.

Now if Luka’s averaging a 35 point triple double playing 70+ games and the Mavs are a top 3 seed, yeah he’s probably gonna get the benefit of the doubt over anything Jokic does. Shiny new toy and all that. But it’s more the guy who hasn’t won it yet getting the slight benefit of the doubt in a breakthrough season than any kind of cap on Jokic.

[Woodsanity]

I don't think Jokic can win the MVP a third time without a championship ring. I feel there is a definite wall in NBA when it comes to this.

Luka will win it this year I think. LeBron was 24 when he won his first MVP, Luka will be 24 too.

Voters are a lot smarter and more analytically aware than they were in the past. There’s more information available and a lot of voters will use that to choose the best guy instead of just going with feel about who has a better narrative. There’s no wall. If Luka misses 15 games the rest of the way or his production dips, or they fall into the play-in, Jokic very likely does win the MVP.

Now if Luka’s averaging a 35 point triple double playing 70+ games and the Mavs are a top 3 seed, yeah he’s probably gonna get the benefit of the doubt over anything Jokic does. Shiny new toy and all that. But it’s more the guy who hasn’t won it yet getting the slight benefit of the doubt in a breakthrough season than any kind of cap on Jokic.

If Luka maintains top 4 seeding in the West good chance he gets it over Jokic and anyone else. His numbers are just unreal and voter fatigue for Jokic.

[eyeatoma]

I don't think Jokic can win the MVP a third time without a championship ring. I feel there is a definite wall in NBA when it comes to this.

Luka will win it this year I think. LeBron was 24 when he won his first MVP, Luka will be 24 too.

Voters are a lot smarter and more analytically aware than they were in the past. There’s more information available and a lot of voters will use that to choose the best guy instead of just going with feel about who has a better narrative. There’s no wall. If Luka misses 15 games the rest of the way or his production dips, or they fall into the play-in, Jokic very likely does win the MVP.

Now if Luka’s averaging a 35 point triple double playing 70+ games and the Mavs are a top 3 seed, yeah he’s probably gonna get the benefit of the doubt over anything Jokic does. Shiny new toy and all that. But it’s more the guy who hasn’t won it yet getting the slight benefit of the doubt in a breakthrough season than any kind of cap on Jokic.

If Luka maintains top 4 seeding in the West good chance he gets it over Jokic and anyone else. His numbers are just unreal and voter fatigue for Jokic.

Using the logic for why they gave it to Jokic last year, this would 100% apply.