NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[BmanInBigD]

To me its still Tatum.

Celtics are still the best team in the league. Unless they get surpassed record wise why would it not be him?

Because being the best player on the best team is probably the dumbest criteria ever for an MVP, that's why. But since the voters rely mostly on a narrative, you're right, why not?

Edit: on a side note, is this poll based on who we think "will" be MVP based on the season so far, or based on who we think "should" be MVP based on the season so far? Or what we think will happen after the season?

[BigO]

This is what you call gravity...

Serious question. Is there any other player in the league who on a regular basis has the entire opposing team guarding him?

[RipHamilton]

To me its still Tatum.

Celtics are still the best team in the league. Unless they get surpassed record wise why would it not be him?

Because he does not dominate the game of basketball the way Jokic does. Simply as as that. Nuggets without Jokic would not be a playoff team, because everything moves around Jokic. Boston without Tatum is not a contender, but still would be a wonderful physically/defensive team, led by a great player like Jaylen Brown.

[Cubbies2120]

This is what you call gravity...

Serious question. Is there any other player in the league who on a regular basis has the entire opposing team guarding him?

Regular basis? This looks to be an end of game situation and a miscommunication by the Raptors.

If there's a compilation out there of the "entire opposing team guarding him" out there, I haven't seen it. The Raptors played this very poorly.

[CobraCommander]

Luka had a bad game and we all know that it's blowout in that case for Mavs everytime. Luka has to have a great game against average teams for Mavs to win. I believe everyone has seen how limited roster Mavs is, especially with 3 rotational players out.

Btw. Tatum had a pretty bad game himself before stat padding in garbage time.

The mvp is part legit award and partially a popularity contest-

Voters don’t watch all the games - they do remember narratives and then look at things like - head to head match ups and read the news -

Here is the news on espn-

https://www.espn.com/nba/recap/_/gameId/401468732

Pretty much says Tatum had a triple double in blow out over Luka. Only tatums second triple double and second time this year tatum has beat Luka. AFTER Boston lost to OKC minus SGA..:

the writers set up the narrative

The same writers vote on MVP-

Which is why I’m saying Tatum is still in the race. It’s not purely about who is the best player - or MJ would have more than 4, Lebron more than 4 and shaq would have more as well.

Half of his points was in garbage time. I agree nobody will remember this game specifically. On the other hand, he's not getting MVP with those kind of performances. Too many candidates, who are playing a lot better.

Tell yourself what ever makes you feel good at night...but I watched the morning shows and read espn...so the people voting for MVP are saying something different...also you know that it’s not just points - it’s defense too....they giving him credit for Lukas off night

It’s not entirely fair but you gotta beat the guys in your way when the spot light is on...

[CobraCommander]

This is what you call gravity...

Serious question. Is there any other player in the league who on a regular basis has the entire opposing team guarding him?

No not like that lol

[CobraCommander]

To me its still Tatum.

Celtics are still the best team in the league. Unless they get surpassed record wise why would it not be him?

Because being the best player on the best team is probably the dumbest criteria ever for an MVP, that's why. But since the voters rely mostly on a narrative, you're right, why not?

Edit: on a side note, is this poll based on who we think "will" be MVP based on the season so far, or based on who we think "should" be MVP based on the season so far? Or what we think will happen after the season?

That’s the point Bman...if it’s just stats then Jokic bout to 3 peat...but it isn’t...it’s about narrative and story - and honestly I suspect Tatum gets a Boston media bounce that others won’t


And Tatum is a great 2 way player...but he isn’t as good as Jokic or Giannis - he can argue he is as good as Luka if you take Defense and offense..but hey...it’s still a good race with Tatum in it

[liquidswords]

To me its still Tatum.

Celtics are still the best team in the league. Unless they get surpassed record wise why would it not be him?

Because being the best player on the best team is probably the dumbest criteria ever for an MVP, that's why. But since the voters rely mostly on a narrative, you're right, why not?

Edit: on a side note, is this poll based on who we think "will" be MVP based on the season so far, or based on who we think "should" be MVP based on the season so far? Or what we think will happen after the season?

100% thanks for emphasizing this point. Its a flimsy ass reason to vote for someone for MVP.

Also, thanks for calling out the "narrative." Its the reason why Joel Embiid hasn't cracked the top 5 at any point this season.

[liquidswords]

To me its still Tatum.

Celtics are still the best team in the league. Unless they get surpassed record wise why would it not be him?

Because being the best player on the best team is probably the dumbest criteria ever for an MVP, that's why. But since the voters rely mostly on a narrative, you're right, why not?

Edit: on a side note, is this poll based on who we think "will" be MVP based on the season so far, or based on who we think "should" be MVP based on the season so far? Or what we think will happen after the season?

That’s the point Bman...if it’s just stats then Jokic bout to 3 peat...but it isn’t...it’s about narrative and story - and honestly I suspect Tatum gets a Boston media bounce that others won’t


And Tatum is a great 2 way player...but he isn’t as good as Jokic or Giannis - he can argue he is as good as Luka if you take Defense and offense..but hey...it’s still a good race with Tatum in it

The problem is that the "narrative" is usually flimsy and baseless. Tatum being the best player on the best team is a **** reason for him to be MVP. Especially when his numbers are pedestrian for a superstar in today's game and he's not dealing with any injuries on his team. Other worthy MVPs have been putting up video game numbers on crazy efficiency and dealing with a battery of injuries.

[CobraCommander]

Because being the best player on the best team is probably the dumbest criteria ever for an MVP, that's why. But since the voters rely mostly on a narrative, you're right, why not?

Edit: on a side note, is this poll based on who we think "will" be MVP based on the season so far, or based on who we think "should" be MVP based on the season so far? Or what we think will happen after the season?

That’s the point Bman...if it’s just stats then Jokic bout to 3 peat...but it isn’t...it’s about narrative and story - and honestly I suspect Tatum gets a Boston media bounce that others won’t


And Tatum is a great 2 way player...but he isn’t as good as Jokic or Giannis - he can argue he is as good as Luka if you take Defense and offense..but hey...it’s still a good race with Tatum in it

The problem is that the "narrative" is usually flimsy and baseless. Tatum being the best player on the best team is a **** reason for him to be MVP. Especially when his numbers are pedestrian for a superstar in today's game and he's not dealing with any injuries on his team. Other worthy MVPs have been putting up video game numbers on crazy efficiency and dealing with a battery of injuries.

True - but MJ got 5 MVPs and was the goat...and definitely the best guy of his era year after year...so this isn’t a definitive thing...Stephen A smith and Wilbon deciding the MVP...think about that....it’s 100 sports writers - we lucky we got Giannis and Jokic at all lol


Btw....as crazy as this sounds...to me the REALGM MVP vote holds more weight because i think there are more objective thoughtful people on this board than in the media....

We not getting paid to do this...we don’t know these guys...we are not swayed by relationships or our bosses...we just see it and say it


I think where it is at right now...today 1/5 is where I think the mvp vote should be....1-5 with Jokic in first

[ITYSL]

I think it's pretty foolish to say that anyone is the clearcut MVP at this point. There are about six legit contenders for it. This board just generally has a hate boner for everything Celtics - and to some extent for everything Sixers - but both Tatum and Embiid are legit MVP candidates right now.

As a Celtics fan I'd put Jokic at #1 now and then everyone else is a bit of a step down and all kind of tied with one another. Reasonable people may disagree

[ITYSL]

Btw....as crazy as this sounds...to me the REALGM MVP vote holds more weight because i think there are more objective thoughtful people on this board than in the media....

We not getting paid to do this...we don’t know these guys...we are not swayed by relationships or our bosses...we just see it and say it

This is just laughably false considering the fan biases for and against certain players and teams on RGM, which naturally occurs when you're a passionate-enough fan to be posting here.

[BigO]

This is what you call gravity...

Serious question. Is there any other player in the league who on a regular basis has the entire opposing team guarding him?

Regular basis? This looks to be an end of game situation and a miscommunication by the Raptors.

If there's a compilation out there of the "entire opposing team guarding him" out there, I haven't seen it. The Raptors played this very poorly.

This has been going on for years. In Milwaukee, we're used to seeing this kind of photo.And no, I'm not going to spend the time finding them.

Building a wall against Giannis is a regular thing. Not all coaches utilize it, but many, includng Nick Nurse, do. Can you imagine any coach doing that with Tatum? He's just not as impactful.

[BigO]

This is what you call gravity...

Serious question. Is there any other player in the league who on a regular basis has the entire opposing team guarding him?

Regular basis? This looks to be an end of game situation and a miscommunication by the Raptors.

If there's a compilation out there of the "entire opposing team guarding him" out there, I haven't seen it. The Raptors played this very poorly.

This has been going on for years. In Milwaukee, we're used to seeing this kind of photo.And no, I'm not going to spend the time finding them.

Building a wall against Giannis is a regular thing. Not all coaches utilize it, but many, including Nick Nurse, do. Can you imagine any coach doing that with Tatum? He's just not as impactful.

[Doctor MJ]

To me its still Tatum.

Celtics are still the best team in the league. Unless they get surpassed record wise why would it not be him?

Aside from what others have said about "best player on the best team" is not a rigorous approach to MVP, I think you need to look at +/- stuff at the very least.

Right now, Jokic has a +287 for the season while Tatum stands at +231. Tatum's number is excellent - best number for anyone not on the Nuggets - but the idea that Jokic has been having less success out on the court than Tatum just isn't true.

Something I should note: Tatum led this stat last year and I saw him as a considerably more serious MVP candidate than most people did. I still gave the nod to Jokic over Tatum, because there is more to it than this simple number can speak to, but I completely understood an argument for Tatum as MVP last year.

This year, at the moment, I find it tougher to see his case because Jokic is just so insane.

[Doctor MJ]

Serious question. Is there any other player in the league who on a regular basis has the entire opposing team guarding him?

Regular basis? This looks to be an end of game situation and a miscommunication by the Raptors.

If there's a compilation out there of the "entire opposing team guarding him" out there, I haven't seen it. The Raptors played this very poorly.

This has been going on for years. In Milwaukee, we're used to seeing this kind of photo.And no, I'm not going to spend the time finding them.

Building a wall against Giannis is a regular thing. Not all coaches utilize it, but many, including Nick Nurse, do. Can you imagine any coach doing that with Tatum? He's just not as impactful.

So, I'll say first that if you ask me to name the Player of the Decade in the 2020s so far, I'd say Giannis - and so I'm certainly not looking to say Giannis isn't amazing.

But simply put, an extreme situation like the one in the photo says one of two things:

a) This was a mistake on the defense where too many guys helped on Giannis.

or

b) The opposing coaches believed Giannis was so bad at remembering to pass once he committed to the score that it was tactically beneficial to abandon all the other guys.

When you say "this is gravity", you're right, but there's a rub:

Great passers have an anti-gravitational effect because you know that if you leave your man, he's going to get an open shot...and if he's at the 3-point line and a good shooter, then the star with the ball should be looking to make that pass.

By contrast, the concept of gravity is considerably more straight forward off-ball. A great shooter off-ball has a purely attractive gravitational pull and so you can - simply by taking a photo like above - get a very clear sense of how much respect an off-ball scorer has in a way that is just too simplistic for judging a player on-ball.

[Cubbies2120]

Serious question. Is there any other player in the league who on a regular basis has the entire opposing team guarding him?

Regular basis? This looks to be an end of game situation and a miscommunication by the Raptors.

If there's a compilation out there of the "entire opposing team guarding him" out there, I haven't seen it. The Raptors played this very poorly.

This has been going on for years. In Milwaukee, we're used to seeing this kind of photo.And no, I'm not going to spend the time finding them.

Building a wall against Giannis is a regular thing. Not all coaches utilize it, but many, including Nick Nurse, do. Can you imagine any coach doing that with Tatum? He's just not as impactful.

Oh, ok, so we can make claims without evidence...then yeah, I've seen other superstars "regularly guarded by the entire opposing team" too. Happens every game to Tatum, Luka, Jokic!

Since you mentioned Tatum:

[mademan]

Ya i wouldnt take anything away from Raps overhelping. We open double guys like Demar Derozan at the 3pt line, loool. Our whole defensive strategy is to crash in on star players. Watch the Raps play the Mavs; literally the whole game was doubling Luka at the 3pt line, effectively playing 3 vs 4

[CobraCommander]

Btw....as crazy as this sounds...to me the REALGM MVP vote holds more weight because i think there are more objective thoughtful people on this board than in the media....

We not getting paid to do this...we don’t know these guys...we are not swayed by relationships or our bosses...we just see it and say it

This is just laughably false considering the fan biases for and against certain players and teams on RGM, which naturally occurs when you're a passionate-enough fan to be posting here.

Yeah but people here actually watch the games.

There is no way these guys watch the games- they watch the highlights, read the box score and make a vote -

We actually watch at least. And look at the vote - how many Denver fans on here - I’m at cherry creek life time right now I don’t see a single jokic jerseys

[MarcusBrody]

Serious question. Is there any other player in the league who on a regular basis has the entire opposing team guarding him?

Regular basis? This looks to be an end of game situation and a miscommunication by the Raptors.

If there's a compilation out there of the "entire opposing team guarding him" out there, I haven't seen it. The Raptors played this very poorly.

This has been going on for years. In Milwaukee, we're used to seeing this kind of photo.And no, I'm not going to spend the time finding them.

Building a wall against Giannis is a regular thing. Not all coaches utilize it, but many, including Nick Nurse, do. Can you imagine any coach doing that with Tatum? He's just not as impactful.

Defensive strategy against Giannis is the product of his strengths, yes, but also of his weaknesses. You need to build a wall because he's so strong, athletic, and such a good finisher, but the reason that it's a feasible strategy is that 1. He's not a good shooter, so you can allow his man to drop into "wall" position with another defender without pulling the second defender too far out 2. He's not a amazing passer - so he doesn't just cut you up when defenses collapse on him.

Now I'm not saying he's a bad passer - he's certainly no black hole - but he isn't a great passer. Tatum is a much better shooter. Luke is a better shooter and passer. Jokic is a better shooter and passer (though he's also not as likely to penetrate from the perimeter, so walls/doubles are set up different anyway). KD is a MUCH better shooter.

So I agree that Giannis is the greatest threat of any of the MVP candidates to get to the rim and so defenses are most likely to try to wall him/collapse on him, but the defensive strategy shows both points in his favor and points against.