If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

[Exp0sed]

How much have you actually watched Franz? "Well below average" on defence is plain wrong. He's average at worst, he's a 6'10" guy who can move his feet well and plays smart and gives good effort on D. He is certainly an efficient scorer, 20 PPG on 58.9 TS%, and he's doing it on a team with horrible spacing and one of the worst PG rotations in the league.

alot less than you, especially as a rookie didn't watch him much but caught a good number of Magic games this season
I didn't see average at worst I saw - "bad"

he has to be one of the worst rebounders in the league for a guy his size
that's pretty damning, i doubt you could find many past players who were average and above average defenders and rebounded so poorly relative to their peers

when u add that to his weak steals and non existant rim protection (0.7 BLK% ) ..well you get the picture

yes, he's a good scorer already and his path to stardom is by being a volume shooter and scorer, he needs more FGA otherwise he'd be a negative on the court

edit:

p.s - i Like Wagner seems like a nice kid, I hope he has a great career
not hating in any way, I just see him a role player (and that's fine)

when all is and done it'd look very funny, a comparison between Wagner and Mobley's career for instance

[tooler]

I feel like we’re back to square one in this thread. You patiently talk through what Franz is and how much he’s already improved, build some sort of consensus, and then some Internet rando stops by and calls him a role player again. What was the point of all that earlier discussion?

Forums are hopeless.

[basketballRob]

Lol a hit piece? It's objectivity telling you the pros and cons of the top 4 picks from last year

There just isn't a Paolo in that draft.

All 4 of Green, Barnes, Mobley and Cade have something in them that you can see can lead to them becoming All NBA guys, on the other hand they all lack something the others have.

It's truly difficult to tell which in that draft class will end up being the best player in 3 years down the line atm.

Franz is better than all those players with the exception of maybe Mobley.

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[basketballRob]

Idk why people think there's "nothing special" about a 6'10 wing who moves fluidly with the ball, has a nice and reliable looking shot, shoots 85% from the line and league average from 3, and is a willing and capable passer, and who has very good court awareness. Maybe he doesn't have one stand-out elite skill but he's very good at a lot of facets of basketball. My biggest criticism of him remains his weakness and softness on the boards. He should be a much better rebounder than he is at his height. I don't want to hear the excuses from Magic fans that you have a big frontcourt and he's not needed on the boards - if you're being honest with yourselves, you know he's a poor rebounder.

Anyways, look at a guy like Jalen Green who has one truly elite attribute - his dribble separation ability coupled with explosive athleticism. But he's not good at anything else. He can't impact the game as much as someone like Franz because he doesn't have all the basketball skills Franz does. I can see how a trajectory for how Franz can become a top 20 player by improving and polishing the skills he already has, whereas a guy like Green has a long way to go toward becoming an impact player. Franz is pretty clearly the best player in this draft class so far, maybe he peaks as a couple of time All-Star, and maybe he makes ten teams. What's for certain is that other top prospects like Barnes, Cade, Green, etc. are the ones who have to prove they're better than Franz right now, not vice versa.

I agree with you about Franz rebounding. That is a clear weakness of his for sure especially being 6'10. He should be in the 6-7RPG range.

Franz has played SG all year so he does compete with 3 frontcourt players

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[Vampirate]

Anyone that doesnt see Franz as a top 1 or 2 player in this draft just isnt watching him. Last night he had 2 points to start the 4th with only 3 shot attempts and ended up with 22 on 6/10 shooting. He takes what the defense gives him and rarely forces his offense.

no offense, but ur being incredibly homerish

players have all kinds of development trajectories and careers take surprising turns at times

Franz is just in the middle of his soph season and alot can happen, we have no idea how far he is to his ceiling

but so far, he hasn't shown anything to make anyone think he'd be a real difference maker in this league in the future
He's a decent outside shooter, isn't an efficient NBA scorer (nothing to write home about anyway)
his defense is well below average despite his size
he's a poor rebounder and isn't a particularly good or promising playmaker

He looks like a role player, a good one but def a role player - thus far
will he make tremendous jumps in the future? it's very possible but far from guaranteed
most guys that make those huge jumps, they don't really come from nowhere - there were earlier signs, flashed of something greater.

what's Franz's path to be a star in this league?
with certain players it's easy to envision - whether they reach that level via work, improvment, physical maturity etc is a diff question but you can see how that could happen

with Franz i'm not seeing it yet tbh

How is it homerish to say that a player who is putting up the best numbers from the 22 draft class is a top 2 player in the draft?

You are basically claiming you can predict the future 3 years from now, just because Franz is on your team essentially.

it's also a prediction the other 4 players cannot make a jump to surpass Franz on limited data, limited meaning under 40 games worth.

If you are bringing last year up Franz is not top 2 then.

So yes, homerish.

[Exp0sed]

.

I agree with you about Franz rebounding. That is a clear weakness of his for sure especially being 6'10. He should be in the 6-7RPG range.

Franz has played SG all year so he does compete with 3 frontcourt players

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Wagner has a reb% of 5.9 (!) this season

that's low even for a SG and shooting guards don't tend to be 6'10
only players on the Magic who have slightly lower reb% are Ross and Garry Harris

Suggs, Okeke, Fultz and even Cole are rebounding more

you can hate on me all you'd like, and maybe it's premature but....yeah

and srry that i didn't read 30 pages of posts to know every word that was said months ago, haha (that's to the poster that has a problem with loops

[Vampirate]

Lol a hit piece? It's objectivity telling you the pros and cons of the top 4 picks from last year

There just isn't a Paolo in that draft.

All 4 of Green, Barnes, Mobley and Cade have something in them that you can see can lead to them becoming All NBA guys, on the other hand they all lack something the others have.

It's truly difficult to tell which in that draft class will end up being the best player in 3 years down the line atm.

Franz is better than all those players with the exception of maybe Mobley.

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Tell me what next years lotto numbers are since you can apparently predict the future.

[Vampirate]

Lol a hit piece? It's objectivity telling you the pros and cons of the top 4 picks from last year

There just isn't a Paolo in that draft.

All 4 of Green, Barnes, Mobley and Cade have something in them that you can see can lead to them becoming All NBA guys, on the other hand they all lack something the others have.

It's truly difficult to tell which in that draft class will end up being the best player in 3 years down the line atm.

Keep in mind, even Paulo needs to develop and improve or he's just a low efficiency volume scorer without a 3pter who's awful team is better when he's not on the floor.

Skill and physical development are crucial for young players and we want to assume it's going to happen, but we still have to see it.

While true, Paolo's ability to draw fouls at an All Star/Superstar rate is what makes him truly stand out. It's clearly a skill he has.

If he has even a decent shooting night he could probably get 25 points with ease.

Best shooter/passer/defender etc? No, but he's decent for a rookie in those and has good size.

His ability to draw fouls though should make him a 20-24+PPG scorer moving forwards at the minimum.

[basketballRob]

no offense, but ur being incredibly homerish

players have all kinds of development trajectories and careers take surprising turns at times

Franz is just in the middle of his soph season and alot can happen, we have no idea how far he is to his ceiling

but so far, he hasn't shown anything to make anyone think he'd be a real difference maker in this league in the future
He's a decent outside shooter, isn't an efficient NBA scorer (nothing to write home about anyway)
his defense is well below average despite his size
he's a poor rebounder and isn't a particularly good or promising playmaker

He looks like a role player, a good one but def a role player - thus far
will he make tremendous jumps in the future? it's very possible but far from guaranteed
most guys that make those huge jumps, they don't really come from nowhere - there were earlier signs, flashed of something greater.

what's Franz's path to be a star in this league?
with certain players it's easy to envision - whether they reach that level via work, improvment, physical maturity etc is a diff question but you can see how that could happen

with Franz i'm not seeing it yet tbh

How is it homerish to say that a player who is putting up the best numbers from the 22 draft class is a top 2 player in the draft?

You are basically claiming you can predict the future 3 years from now, just because Franz is on your team essentially.

it's also a prediction the other 4 players cannot make a jump to surpass Franz on limited data, limited meaning under 40 games worth.

If you are bringing last year up Franz is not top 2 then.

So yes, homerish.

Oh, I was just saying currently he's better than Scottie, Green, and probably Cade.


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[Bergmaniac]

Idk why people think there's "nothing special" about a 6'10 wing who moves fluidly with the ball, has a nice and reliable looking shot, shoots 85% from the line and league average from 3, and is a willing and capable passer, and who has very good court awareness. Maybe he doesn't have one stand-out elite skill but he's very good at a lot of facets of basketball. My biggest criticism of him remains his weakness and softness on the boards. He should be a much better rebounder than he is at his height. I don't want to hear the excuses from Magic fans that you have a big frontcourt and he's not needed on the boards - if you're being honest with yourselves, you know he's a poor rebounder.

Anyways, look at a guy like Jalen Green who has one truly elite attribute - his dribble separation ability coupled with explosive athleticism. But he's not good at anything else. He can't impact the game as much as someone like Franz because he doesn't have all the basketball skills Franz does. I can see how a trajectory for how Franz can become a top 20 player by improving and polishing the skills he already has, whereas a guy like Green has a long way to go toward becoming an impact player. Franz is pretty clearly the best player in this draft class so far, maybe he peaks as a couple of time All-Star, and maybe he makes ten teams. What's for certain is that other top prospects like Barnes, Cade, Green, etc. are the ones who have to prove they're better than Franz right now, not vice versa.

i'm not a fan of Green personally, I dislke that playstyle and culture

yes, his shooting is his best skill and his ft% is a good indicator he'll be shooting 40% from 3 when he developes further and gains experience

making 10 all star teams is a huge stretch but peaking at a couple of AS teams is def plausible
how likely is that? not very likely imo

he really lacks good defensive instincts - maybe he can his defense to passable level but i'd be shocked if he'll become a good NBA defender

how come a capable and willing passer, whose 6'10 and moves so "fluidly" with the ball manages only 3.5 AST and 2.2 TO, on 33 mpg with 25% usage?

capable and willing passers make good passes

here's where I see Franz as being capped:
he's been shooting well from 2p range, over 53% this season
the only actual skill Franz has rn that is elite - is shooting. Now, since he is a negative on the court defensively you have to run a good amount of offense thru him, if he isn't shooting - he is contributing very little

when you do run ur offense thru him, he's not a good enough playmaker to actually warrant that, that leaves you mosly with trying to get him good shots, on big volume kinda like MPJ for instance

is it valuable to have this type of player? sure - but that's 3rd or 4th best player on a good team

that kind of player still needs to be set up and he doesn't really make the players around him better and tbh it's even worse, because he's not getting extra possesions for his team (via rebounding on either end, steals\blocks etc.) in fact he's very below average in that regard so you could argue he's making his teammates "worse"

poor defense, poor all around game
scoring isn't everything

he'll need to carry a serious offensive load to justifiy a big contract
it's one thing now on a rookie deal, but imagine paying a max rookie extention...that's kind of hefty for what he actually brings to the table

now again, he's young maybe he breakes out starting tomorrow, or next season or in 4 seasons
point is as of now he hasn't shown that he can be any kind of difference maker

I guess his best case scenario would be something like this version of 2023 Lauri

The version of Franz you are describing really doesn't resemble much the actual one. He is not an elite shooter, his main strength offensively is his ability to get to the rim and finish very well. He shoots only 35% from 3, he doesn't shoot many jumpshots from midrange and over 70% of his 2 point attempts this season are layups and hook shots. And he's assisted on only 37% of his 2 point attempts.

He is not poor defensively. His team is significantly better when he is on the court. Rebounds and blocks are far from everything on D. And he may not get many rebounds himself, but ever since he's been on the league his team has had a much higher defensive rebound rate when he has been on the court compared to his minutes on the bench and that's because he boxes out well.

[tooler]

I agree 100% that Franz is a poor rebounder. It's not his game. He sees Cole Anthony flying in to steal a rebound and determines that the right play is to head down to the other end of the floor. He's not the type of guy that's going to rabidly throw his body into the mix and pull down a rebound for +1 in the box score.

...and I couldn't care less. Even MVP candidates have flaws in their game. [See below for what I mean by this.] I'm more interested in what he already does well and his potential to be even greater. We already talked about that throughout the thread. I don't have the stamina to rehash it for new arrivals.

[JonFromVA]

There just isn't a Paolo in that draft.

All 4 of Green, Barnes, Mobley and Cade have something in them that you can see can lead to them becoming All NBA guys, on the other hand they all lack something the others have.

It's truly difficult to tell which in that draft class will end up being the best player in 3 years down the line atm.

Keep in mind, even Paulo needs to develop and improve or he's just a low efficiency volume scorer without a 3pter who's awful team is better when he's not on the floor.

Skill and physical development are crucial for young players and we want to assume it's going to happen, but we still have to see it.

While true, Paolo's ability to draw fouls at an All Star/Superstar rate is what makes him truly stand out. It's clearly a skill he has.

If he has even a decent shooting night he could probably get 25 points with ease.

Best shooter/passer/defender etc? No, but he's decent for a rookie in those and has good size.

His ability to draw fouls though should make him a 20-24+PPG scorer moving forwards at the minimum.

I don't know about it helping him 'stand out', but it is preventing him from putting up efficiency numbers reminiscent of say Dion Waiters.

It's certainly a valuable attribute if/when he starts figuring the other stuff out.

[tooler]

For the record, I don't know how any of this will turn out, and I don't blame anyone for sticking with their favorite prospects in a redraft.

As a Magic fan used to a front office drafting longboi projects that might develop into basketball players one day, it's refreshing (and a little scary) to have two skilled wings setting the bar for the rest of their draft classes. We just have to wait and see if the high ceiling guys surpass them in the long run.

[Roger Murdock]

People are slow to come around to Franz because he was labeled as a role player and 4th/5th starter

He’s unquestionably been a better pro than anyone drafted ahead of him sans Mobley and maybe Barnes given weight on Y1 v Y2

The only guys showing strong improvement in Y2 are Mobley, Franz, and Sengun

Right now I don’t see a perennial superstar from this class. Mobley will probably be a 5x+ all star

I do think Franz is most likely to make more than one ASG out of the remainder of the class.




At this point my redraft would be something like
1. Mobley
2. Franz
3. Sengun
4. Barnes
5. Green
6. Cade

[Vampirate]

How is it homerish to say that a player who is putting up the best numbers from the 22 draft class is a top 2 player in the draft?

You are basically claiming you can predict the future 3 years from now, just because Franz is on your team essentially.

it's also a prediction the other 4 players cannot make a jump to surpass Franz on limited data, limited meaning under 40 games worth.

If you are bringing last year up Franz is not top 2 then.

So yes, homerish.

Oh, I was just saying currently he's better than Scottie, Green, and probably Cade.


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If you are talking currently, then i'd put Franz #1, he's at last years efficiency but he's better at getting to the line.

If you are talking 2-3 years from now this is a whole different conversation. And calling a player a top 2 player in the draft is saying he's going to be top 2 years from now.

To put this another way, by that logic Raptor fans could easily say that Barnes is a top 2 player right after his rookie year.

My point is it's a very premature statement.

It's too early to call anyone in that draft the best.

I'll put this another way, there can be a case that Franz ends up as the best player in that draft, however if that's the case, than that draft, while deep is not particularly good. For example, while Franz has indeed been impressive, I don't think you'd put him on Paolo's level as a player years down the line.

What Houston, Toronto, Detroit, and Cleveland fans are hoping is that their picks are that franchise changing talents.

Results have been mixed thus far.

[Charlesareed]

1. Mobley
2. Barnes
3. Cade
4. Green

Sounds about right tbh I’m shocked the rockets didn’t take Mobley I bet there kicking themselves rn

[tooler]

People are slow to come around to Franz because he was labeled as a role player and 4th/5th starter

At the end of the day, I really can't blame them. It's still a little shocking to think about how far he's come. Most of the fanbase hated the pick. I don't watch college basketball so I had no clue either way!

[Vampirate]

I agree 100% that Franz is a poor rebounder. It's not his game. He sees Cole Anthony flying in to steal a rebound and determines that the right play is to head down to the other end of the floor. He's not the type of guy that's going to rabidly throw his body into the mix and pull down a rebound for +1 in the box score.

...and I couldn't care less. MVP candidates have flaws in their game. I'm more interested in what he already does well and his potential to be even greater. We already talked about that throughout the thread. I don't have the stamina to rehash it for new arrivals.

This is quite the jump to compare Franz too though.

I think Franz has All Star in him, but MVP is a bit much.

MVP type players are elite in more than 1 way. Harden was a great rebounder and distributer, Giannis is a monster on the glass and an all world defender etc.

Also I think it's even a stretch for you to believe Franz has Paolo's ceiling as a player.

As for Franz, he's shown to be all around efficient in his scoring, a decent distributer, probably decent-good defender. Basically a good player who can make the All Star team. Looking like a steal in the draft.

In order for Franz to get to All NBA level, let alone MVP level he needs to be able to warp defenses with his passing or become absolutely dominating with his scoring. Do you think he's going to become the 2nd coming of Dirk? I'll give that he's very tall and clearly can shoot, but can he take his game to that level?

[tooler]

I agree 100% that Franz is a poor rebounder. It's not his game. He sees Cole Anthony flying in to steal a rebound and determines that the right play is to head down to the other end of the floor. He's not the type of guy that's going to rabidly throw his body into the mix and pull down a rebound for +1 in the box score.

...and I couldn't care less. MVP candidates have flaws in their game. I'm more interested in what he already does well and his potential to be even greater. We already talked about that throughout the thread. I don't have the stamina to rehash it for new arrivals.

This is quite the jump to compare Franz too though.

I think Franz has All Star in him, but MVP is a bit much.

MVP type players are elite in more than 1 way. Harden was a great rebounder and distributer, Giannis is a monster on the glass and an all world defender etc.

Also I think it's even a stretch for you to believe Franz has Paolo's ceiling as a player.

As for Franz, he's shown to be all around efficient in his scoring, a decent distributer, probably decent-good defender. Basically a good player who can make the All Star team. Looking like a steal in the draft.

In order for Franz to get to All NBA level, let alone MVP level he needs to be able to warp defenses with his passing or become absolutely dominating with his scoring. Do you think he's going to become the 2nd coming of Dirk? I'll give that he's very tall and clearly can shoot, but can he take his game to that level?

I thought someone might get confused and jump on this. I almost explained myself but decided to let it ride.

I wasn't in the remotest universe suggesting that he's a future MVP candidate. I'm only talking about how we talk about and criticize NBA players. The MVP debate threads are full of silly little dissections of flaws. It's pointless because they're all godlike players.

So if we treat MVP candidates like that, then what's the point in debating a few flaws in my potential borderline all-star? We could be here all day if we did this to every player. I'd rather talk about the players as a whole.

[JonFromVA]

I agree 100% that Franz is a poor rebounder. It's not his game. He sees Cole Anthony flying in to steal a rebound and determines that the right play is to head down to the other end of the floor. He's not the type of guy that's going to rabidly throw his body into the mix and pull down a rebound for +1 in the box score.

...and I couldn't care less. MVP candidates have flaws in their game. I'm more interested in what he already does well and his potential to be even greater. We already talked about that throughout the thread. I don't have the stamina to rehash it for new arrivals.

This is quite the jump to compare Franz too though.

I think Franz has All Star in him, but MVP is a bit much.

MVP type players are elite in more than 1 way. Harden was a great rebounder and distributer, Giannis is a monster on the glass and an all world defender etc.

Also I think it's even a stretch for you to believe Franz has Paolo's ceiling as a player.

As for Franz, he's shown to be all around efficient in his scoring, a decent distributer, probably decent-good defender. Basically a good player who can make the All Star team. Looking like a steal in the draft.

In order for Franz to get to All NBA level, let alone MVP level he needs to be able to warp defenses with his passing or become absolutely dominating with his scoring. Do you think he's going to become the 2nd coming of Dirk? I'll give that he's very tall and clearly can shoot, but can he take his game to that level?

Nobody knows, but IMO what's making this such a crazy season is all the players who've refined their game over the years to the point they're toying with defenses and making shots we would have called awful not all that long ago.