NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[BelgradeNugget]

Yeah thats a joke.

Jokic had a Championship level roster in the bubble and was horrible in the WCF. Got his lunch eaten by AD.

Last 2 years he had the injury excuse.

I'm not just going to pretend hes a Championship level player based on flashy regular season stats. He has to earn that respect.

If were just going by regular seasons then Harden/Malone should be in the same conversation as Jordan/LeBron.

Its a stupid argument. Winning matters. You don't think those guys will bring up their teammates?

After so many words you wrote here all can be put in two words:
stupid argument

Wow. Compelling counter.

Well, you know I just wanted to keep it simple hoping you could understand. I saw so many smarth people trying to present some arguments to you but you don't care, you're having fun. Now if it is funny to you to keep this discussion on the level of plankton, ok you can understand that level, and we can all have fun.

[MarcusBrody]

Yeah youre right. Jokic is one of the 2-3 best player in NBA history.

Thats essentially what youre arguing.

And my arguments are embarrassing.

I'm not sure if its so much his arguments as your comprehension of them.

Statement 1: Jokic did not lead his depleted team to a top seed.

Statement 2: Only 2-3 players in history could have led that roster to a top seed.

You conclusion: You're saying Jokic is a top 2-3 player I'm history?!

Really all the second Statement does is say that Jokic is NOT one of the two or three players who could take that roster to the top seed. You can't conclude anything else about how your discussion partner rates him all time.

Though just for fun, I'm thinking 2009 LeBron (I think he got better as a player, but this was the peak of his energy to do it all and carry) and maybe early 70s Kareem as the 2 most likely to be able to do it.

He really is terrible at trolling isn’t he

To be totally fair to him, I think I did misread the statement he was responding too. Going back. I see why he interpreted it the way he did.

[GeorgeSears]

Embiid missed his 11th game. It's safe to say he's out of the discussion. That cuts the pool down to 5 candidates. As long as he keeps missing 10+ games a season, he'll never be a real MVP contender.

[Cubbies2120]

Yeah thats a joke.

Jokic had a Championship level roster in the bubble and was horrible in the WCF. Got his lunch eaten by AD.

Last 2 years he had the injury excuse.

I'm not just going to pretend hes a Championship level player based on flashy regular season stats. He has to earn that respect.

If were just going by regular seasons then Harden/Malone should be in the same conversation as Jordan/LeBron.

Its a stupid argument. Winning matters. You don't think those guys will bring up their teammates?

Was horrible in the WCF? Lol fam cmon.

Also are we talking about pre-MVP Jokic? Do you think he was the same player in 2020 as he was in 2022 and now 2023?

The only 3 teams to beat Jokic in the playoffs since he became an MVP candidate are the following:
NBA Champions
WC Champs
NBA Champions

He doesn't lose to non-contenders in the playoffs...

Now add onto this that he was missing his #2 in the last two seasons...it's not reasonable to expect him to get past the best team in the NBA...he did his job.

Of course hes losing to good teams. He doesn't get good seeds so he has to play the best teams early on.

What a ridiculous argument.

The point is he hasn't proven it at the highest level. I'm just supposed to assume he can do it because hes been without Jamal Murray for the last 2 playoffs?

2020 he had his chance and he played poorly. Lets see what happens this season.

24/10/6 on 52% (43% from 3) shooting is "playing poorly"? Keep in mind this was his 2nd playoff year, before he was an MVP...he's only gotten better since.

He got the #3 seed in 2020, #3 seed in 2021 (missing Murray for half the season), and #6 seed in 2022 missing two max contract players. You said he "doesnt get good seeds" (AKA multiple times), so is #3 seed not a good seed?

Would he have been better off doing what Curry did when missing Klay and missing the playoffs entirely? No, he dragged that crew to a 6 seed putting up a historic season, and put up 31/13/6 on 58% facing the future champions...

You keep going back to 2020, before he was an MVP level player...why? Just wanna test your basketball IQ here - has he not improved SIGNIFICANTLY since 2020?

[mademan]

Anybody saying the 2020 Nuggets were a championship roster is just trolling. If thats a championship roster, then there are 10 championship rosters every year

[zonedefense]

After todays game the Mavs are 0-4 without Luka. Lets say he misses four more games and the Mavs lose all of them. Would that improve his chances because the Mavs aren´t even able to beat tanking teams or would the additional Ls and a worse record hurt his chances?

[Archx]

After todays game the Mavs are 0-4 without Luka. Lets say he misses four more games and the Mavs lose all of them. Would that improve his chances because the Mavs aren´t even able to beat tanking teams or would the additional Ls and a worse record hurt his chances?

Mavs record is 21-7 when Luka has 30+ and 2-11 when he doesn't (including 0-4 when he doesn't play). Just crazy dependant on one guy doing it all.

Read on Twitter

[Infinite Llamas]

After todays game the Mavs are 0-4 without Luka. Lets say he misses four more games and the Mavs lose all of them. Would that improve his chances because the Mavs aren´t even able to beat tanking teams or would the additional Ls and a worse record hurt his chances?

Less rest days would be a great start to winning more.

[moderndarwin]

I’ll reiterate:

Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe
Lebron, KD, Steph, Giannis

This is tier 1. They are winners. They elevate their teammates at the right time and get them to the promised land. Jokic close to KD since KD was a bus rider and not driver though….but still far away from that crew.

Winning matters. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. The other thing we don’t know is how Joker would hold up over an extended playoffs. And multiple years of it. He never gets far enough.

Probably Luka the MVP this year. These regular season stat stuffers can continue to make the mvp less and less meaningful.

[rocketsfan100]

Embiid missed his 11th game. It's safe to say he's out of the discussion. That cuts the pool down to 5 candidates. As long as he keeps missing 10+ games a season, he'll never be a real MVP contender.

Not only that the Sixers generally look just as good without him which hurts his chances. Take Jokic out of Denver I suspect we are talking about a lottery bound team

[Mick Dundee]

After todays game the Mavs are 0-4 without Luka. Lets say he misses four more games and the Mavs lose all of them. Would that improve his chances because the Mavs aren´t even able to beat tanking teams or would the additional Ls and a worse record hurt his chances?

I believe it does not matter anyway.

As things stand, Fans and Voters alike can barely wait to see Jokic win Three in a Row.

It's just a feeling or vague perception ... but I think Voter Fatigue plays no Role in Jokic's case.

Because of his "I-don't-give-a-flying-one"-Persona.

The more he continues to play the way he does and the less he cares about anything except his Horse Stables,
the more Fans and Voters alike will be hellbent on throwing their Votes at him.

[Sgt Major]

Nuggets 2020 - championship roster



Now that's some first-class trolling!

Sent from Asus Zenfone 9

[Oscar9992]

Mavs are 23-14 with Luka & 0-4 without him this season!

Read on Twitter

[dygaction]

Steph
Lebron
Giannis
KD
———-
the rest

They’re still the tier 1 until I see otherwise. Fancy regular seasons don’t change the fact. You can give the Malones of this era the MVP but we all know it goes:

Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe
Lebron, Steph, KD, Giannis
TBD, TBD, TBD, TBD

Maybe Joker, Luka, Tatum, Embiid are the top contenders for this next go around but it remains to be seen…don’t think they’ve displaced the 4 kings yet

I agree 100%. And you can throw Kawhi in there too.

Until you prove you can do it at the highest level you are not in the same tier as those guys.

So what's my standard in deciding regular season MVPs? No clue, one thing I know is not to look at how players are playing in this regular season, maybe select from previous Finals MVPs?

[Johnny Firpo]

After todays game the Mavs are 0-4 without Luka. Lets say he misses four more games and the Mavs lose all of them. Would that improve his chances because the Mavs aren´t even able to beat tanking teams or would the additional Ls and a worse record hurt his chances?

I believe it does not matter anyway.

As things stand, Fans and Voters alike can barely wait to see Jokic win Three in a Row.

It's just a feeling or vague perception ... but I think Voter Fatigue plays no Role in Jokic's case.

Because of his "I-don't-give-a-flying-one"-Persona.

The more he continues to play the way he does and the less he cares about anything except his Horse Stables,
the more Fans and Voters alike will be hellbent on throwing their Votes at him.

I mean, every available metric says that he is the best player in the NBA, and this year his production worth probably 10-15% more than any other superstar. The only arguments against him is him winning the last two, and not winning the championship yet, which are not great arguments. I still think/hope that it will be Luka, and yeah, it would be a little bit unfair.

[Yuri36]

After todays game the Mavs are 0-4 without Luka. Lets say he misses four more games and the Mavs lose all of them. Would that improve his chances because the Mavs aren´t even able to beat tanking teams or would the additional Ls and a worse record hurt his chances?

Mavs record is 21-7 when Luka has 30+ and 2-11 when he doesn't (including 0-4 when he doesn't play). Just crazy dependant on one guy doing it all.

Read on Twitter

And that's the definition of a MVP, especially when this dependency results more often than not in wins.
The guy definitely deserves an individual accolade for all the things he's showed for the last 3 years and how he's lighted up this league, even more so during the POs.

[Exp0sed]

After todays game the Mavs are 0-4 without Luka. Lets say he misses four more games and the Mavs lose all of them. Would that improve his chances because the Mavs aren´t even able to beat tanking teams or would the additional Ls and a worse record hurt his chances?

Mavs record is 21-7 when Luka has 30+ and 2-11 when he doesn't (including 0-4 when he doesn't play). Just crazy dependant on one guy doing it all.

Read on Twitter

And that's the definition of a MVP, especially when this dependency results more often than not in wins.
The guy definitely deserves an individual accolade for all the things he's showed for the last 3 years and how he's lighted up this league, even more so during the POs.

their record being 21-7 when he scores 30+ and 2-7 when he doesn't is kinda meaningless
it's more apparent on the Mavs because they don't have anyone to fill his shoes but you can do the same for other high scoring players as well.

The Celtics for instance who are 28-12, are only 3-3 when Tatum scores 24 points or less

The Bucks are 4-8 when Giannis scores 30 or less and they are 21-12 when Giannis plays this season

obviously if the opponent manages to force your star into a bad scoring game, those points have to come from somewhere

Doncic is a strong candidate this season, "deserves a personal accolade for what he's done in the past years" is 100% not a thing
also - that's what 1st team all-NBA is for

Jokic does not have more help than Doncic!

those rosters are pretty comparable. if Murray gets back to his old self and so does MPJ and they both stay healthy, then the Nuggets supporting case would be arguably a bit better
but thus far this season there is very little seperating these rosters

Jokic's team falls apart just they way Dallas does without Doncic (perhaps even more)

Doncic is 23-14 this season, Jokic is 25-11

if that gaps continues to exist, both in win % and total wins (and it's likely that would be the case) then Luka would have to be considarbly better than Jokic (or someone else if that some1 reaches these levels) in order to win it. let's say, if the Nuggets are 1st \ 2nd and the Mavs are 4th etc.

so far they've been pretty close individually imo, had Jokic ahead for a while then Luka passed him by a hair
i'd say if Jokic takes care of the streaking Lakers tonight - he'd be back firmly at the top

[_NoMas]

Mavs record is 21-7 when Luka has 30+ and 2-11 when he doesn't (including 0-4 when he doesn't play). Just crazy dependant on one guy doing it all.

Read on Twitter

And that's the definition of a MVP, especially when this dependency results more often than not in wins.
The guy definitely deserves an individual accolade for all the things he's showed for the last 3 years and how he's lighted up this league, even more so during the POs.

their record being 21-7 when he scores 30+ and 2-7 when he doesn't is kinda meaningless
it's more apparent on the Mavs because they don't have anyone to fill his shoes but you can do the same for other high scoring players as well.

The Celtics for instance who are 28-12, are only 3-3 when Tatum scores 24 points or less

The Bucks are 4-8 when Giannis scores 30 or less and they are 21-12 when Giannis plays this season

obviously if the opponent manages to force your star into a bad scoring game, those points have to come from somewhere

Doncic is a strong candidate this season, "deserves a personal accolade for what he's done in the past years" is 100% not a thing
also - that's what 1st team all-NBA is for

Jokic does not have more help than Doncic!

those rosters are pretty comparable. if Murray gets back to his old self and so does MPJ and they both stay healthy, then the Nuggets supporting case would be arguably a bit better
but thus far this season there is very little seperating these rosters

Jokic's team falls apart just they way Dallas does without Doncic (perhaps even more)

Doncic is 23-14 this season, Jokic is 25-11

if that gaps continues to exist, both in win % and total wins (and it's likely that would be the case) then Luka would have to be considarbly better than Jokic (or someone else if that some1 reaches these levels) in order to win it. let's say, if the Nuggets are 1st \ 2nd and the Mavs are 4th etc.

so far they've been pretty close individually imo, had Jokic ahead for a while then Luka passed him by a hair
i'd say if Jokic takes care of the streaking Lakers tonight - he'd be back firmly at the top

I’ve got Jokic ever so slightly ahead of Luka (although you can’t go wrong with either as your MVP at this stage) - but I really disagree on the Nuggets and Mavs rosters being comparable. I’ll take MPJ, Murray and Gordon (albeit the former two have missed time/ building up form gradually) over anything the Mavs have to offer.

The gap in wins is not yet big enough for that to be a deciding factor over the two, Luka has their records close enough despite a weaker supporting cast. All to play for in the second half of the season

[Archx]

Mavs record is 21-7 when Luka has 30+ and 2-11 when he doesn't (including 0-4 when he doesn't play). Just crazy dependant on one guy doing it all.

Read on Twitter

And that's the definition of a MVP, especially when this dependency results more often than not in wins.
The guy definitely deserves an individual accolade for all the things he's showed for the last 3 years and how he's lighted up this league, even more so during the POs.

their record being 21-7 when he scores 30+ and 2-7 when he doesn't is kinda meaningless
it's more apparent on the Mavs because they don't have anyone to fill his shoes but you can do the same for other high scoring players as well.

The Celtics for instance who are 28-12, are only 3-3 when Tatum scores 24 points or less

The Bucks are 4-8 when Giannis scores 30 or less and they are 21-12 when Giannis plays this season

obviously if the opponent manages to force your star into a bad scoring game, those points have to come from somewhere

Doncic is a strong candidate this season, "deserves a personal accolade for what he's done in the past years" is 100% not a thing
also - that's what 1st team all-NBA is for

Jokic does not have more help than Doncic!

those rosters are pretty comparable. if Murray gets back to his old self and so does MPJ and they both stay healthy, then the Nuggets supporting case would be arguably a bit better
but thus far this season there is very little seperating these rosters

Jokic's team falls apart just they way Dallas does without Doncic (perhaps even more)

Doncic is 23-14 this season, Jokic is 25-11

if that gaps continues to exist, both in win % and total wins (and it's likely that would be the case) then Luka would have to be considarbly better than Jokic (or someone else if that some1 reaches these levels) in order to win it. let's say, if the Nuggets are 1st \ 2nd and the Mavs are 4th etc.

so far they've been pretty close individually imo, had Jokic ahead for a while then Luka passed him by a hair
i'd say if Jokic takes care of the streaking Lakers tonight - he'd be back firmly at the top

There is no denying that Jokic is doing a fantastic work and in probably the only player outside of Giannis and Luka who can really hard carry his team.

With 3 important guys being injured for well over a month now, Mavs often play with 3 players who are basically in the Gleague. If i tell you their names, you probably won't even know them At least 1 of them has a potential, so kinda blessing in disguise. But it's tough to win anything like that. Even Frank Ntilikina has become an important part of their rotation because he basically has to be lol.

[Sharkboy242]

Embiid missed his 11th game. It's safe to say he's out of the discussion. That cuts the pool down to 5 candidates. As long as he keeps missing 10+ games a season, he'll never be a real MVP contender.

Lets all leave a rose for the fallen homie Eyetoma