Dutchball97 wrote:70sFan wrote:Dutchball97 wrote:The last time Bird was ahead of Jordan in MVP voting was 1986, Magic of course won the award in 1990 but was completely outclassed by Jordan in 1991
I think you proved the point. Magic finished higher than Jordan in 1985-87 and 1990. That's 4 out of 7 seasons in the period I mentioned. I didn't mean that Magic was seen as better than Jordan in every single season of this period, just that Jordan didn't make a clear separation over him.
Just to be clear - I have Jordan ahead of Magic as an individual player in every year since 1989 (with my preference for him in 1988 as well), so I don't want to force Magic > Jordan here. I just don't think Jordan was head and shoulders above Magic and healthy Bird during 1985-91 period.and for Hakeem I really struggle to find years where Jordan played the full season where I'd prefer Hakeem (I think 1993 might be the only exception).
I think I prefer Hakeem in 1985, 1987 and 1993 but then we shouldn't just ignore seasons when Jordan missed time - they also matter. That gives Hakeem 6 seasons in 1985-98 period, it's significant. I know you disagree with 1987 (don't know about rookie season, would you like to share your opinion?), but even without it we have quite a few seasons here.
Again, not saying I have Hakeem ahead (I don't), but he was the competitor.When looking at our own POY project we can see Jordan being crowned the best by this very forum 6 straight years from 88 to 93 with 89, 91 and 92 even being unanimous.
Sure, but if we use the same logic for Russell then he was basically a clear best player in 1960-66 period, so it destroys migya argument about Wilt competing with him.I'm not saying Jordan was on another level of in-era dominance from everyone else in NBA history (I don't even think he was before I get brigaded again by certain people for arguing anything in favor of Jordan) but if Jordan wasn't "clearly" the best in his era then I don't think we can say anyone was "clearly" the best in their own era.
I hope you know that I don't accuse you of anything, I understand your take here.
I think that's a good point - no player in NBA history was inarguable, clear cut best player in the league for a decade. Russell had Wilt, Kareem had Julius (ina different league) and Walton for a brief moment, Bird had Magic, Jordan had Magic/Hakeem, Shaq had Duncan, LeBron had Curry... I think only Mikan didn't have his peer.
I think sometimes people don't understand how rare it is to beat the top for a long time. Jordan is certainly one of the most dominant players ever and that's where we agree (I hope).
I felt like 86, 94 and 95 were so obviously in favor of Hakeem it didn't make sense to even mention it but I can see how within the context of this thread it might seem I'm intentionally omitting them to make Jordan look better. Funnily enough I think Hakeem has a better case over Jordan in 87 due to his play-off performance than he does in his rookie year. So where I stand is 87 and 93 are close but I think Jordan had a better rookie season.
We can definitely agree on Jordan being a similar outlier in his era as other GOAT candidates. Good shout on Mikan though.
I think that what Hakeem did in his rookie season was a bit more impressive, but I can see the case for MJ. Both lead their teams to similar improvement from previous seasons. Jordan probably looks a bit more impressive in a very small postseason sample for what it's worth.
The thing I don't love in rookie Jordan is that I find him a weak defender. Not a huge liability, but in games I have seen he didn't look like even average defender. Hakeem was far from a finished product on either end as well, but he was already quite good defender and his offense, although far from perfect, was valuable in my opinion.
The last sentence is the most important - sometimes people forget that we're talking about players that were so good that it's really tough to make any separation from this GOAT group.
