NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[Cubbies2120]

well over a month is fine, how about for the season?

Denver out of 39 total games, these guys are top 7 in total mins and the number of games they've played:
KCP 38, Brown 38, Jokic 36, AG 34, Murray 32, Bones 31, MPJ 25

Dallas out of 41 games:
Dinwiddie 40, THJ 39, Bullock 39, Wood 38, Luka 37, Powell 36, Dfs 31

if we go deeper, let's say 8-10: J. Green 25, Kleber 22, Frank 22
Btw, bad or not, Ntkilitina was used as a 3rd stringer in the mavs rotation in the WC semis and finals as well, he's been part of this team for a while

Denver's 8-10th: Christian Braun 36, Jeff Green 24 and D. Jordan 28

so you're telling me that because a guy like Kleber is injured the Mavs are forced to (temporarily) play some really bad players?

Is the corpse of Jeff Green better? and he's out for a while too with a broken hand
is rookie Christian Braun a better option?

The Nuggets are playing some bad players too and have had some injuries as well
not to mention their 2nd and 3rd options are returning from very long injuries and aren't quite there yet

3 important guys is kinda of a stretch, this is Kleber wer're talking about here
so yeah they're thin rn and forced to give 5 mins to guys like Mckinley or Pinson

it hurts but that's hardly the main issue

The Nuggets have had "important guys" like Vlatko, Green, NNaji etc all miss considerable time
and when they were thin they were forced to give some mins to guys like Jack White

it's all good

NBA season is long

Long post, but it can be really easy. Mavs without Luka are 0:4, and didn't win almost anything, if Luka didn't score 30+ with good efficiency. Jokic is 25/11, Luka 23/14, pretty close, not something really important to decide MVP.

Luka questionable to play again tomorrow due to soreness...meanwhile fat boi Jokic has only missed games due to Covid this year, no "Ah I'm sore and its the 2nd night of a B2B" from him...if Luka misses the next game, he'll officially be on pace to miss more than 10 games this year.

Just a quick reminder that there has been one MVP in the last 40+ years with more than 10 games missed. I sure hope Luka stops taking games off, otherwise he'll take himself out of the MVP race entirely.

[Exp0sed]

Luka questionable to play again tomorrow due to soreness...meanwhile fat boi Jokic has only missed games due to Covid this year, no "Ah I'm sore and its the 2nd night of a B2B" from him...if Luka misses the next game, he'll officially be on pace to miss more than 10 games this year.

Just a quick reminder that there has been one MVP in the last 40+ years with more than 10 games missed. I sure hope Luka stops taking games off, otherwise he'll take himself out of the MVP race entirely.

Yup

Covid is covid but Jokic played all the games this season apart from that. and it isn't new..
that tells me that he plays thru the minor injuries and the fatigue and is durable to begin with
that's the main thing that catapulted him these past few years in the MVP race
basically all the other superstars just aren't available enough

I think his haters should remember that when comparing per game stats, it's alot easier to go hard when u get a rest every couple of games

[dygaction]

There is no denying that Jokic is doing a fantastic work and in probably the only player outside of Giannis and Luka who can really hard carry his team.

With 3 important guys being injured for well over a month now, Mavs often play with 3 players who are basically in the Gleague. If i tell you their names, you probably won't even know them At least 1 of them has a potential, so kinda blessing in disguise. But it's tough to win anything like that. Even Frank Ntilikina has become an important part of their rotation because he basically has to be lol.

well over a month is fine, how about for the season?

Denver out of 39 total games, these guys are top 7 in total mins and the number of games they've played:
KCP 38, Brown 38, Jokic 36, AG 34, Murray 32, Bones 31, MPJ 25

Dallas out of 41 games:
Dinwiddie 40, THJ 39, Bullock 39, Wood 38, Luka 37, Powell 36, Dfs 31

if we go deeper, let's say 8-10: J. Green 25, Kleber 22, Frank 22
Btw, bad or not, Ntkilitina was used as a 3rd stringer in the mavs rotation in the WC semis and finals as well, he's been part of this team for a while

Denver's 8-10th: Christian Braun 36, Jeff Green 24 and D. Jordan 28

so you're telling me that because a guy like Kleber is injured the Mavs are forced to (temporarily) play some really bad players?

Is the corpse of Jeff Green better? and he's out for a while too with a broken hand
is rookie Christian Braun a better option?

The Nuggets are playing some bad players too and have had some injuries as well
not to mention their 2nd and 3rd options are returning from very long injuries and aren't quite there yet

3 important guys is kinda of a stretch, this is Kleber wer're talking about here
so yeah they're thin rn and forced to give 5 mins to guys like Mckinley or Pinson

it hurts but that's hardly the main issue

The Nuggets have had "important guys" like Vlatko, Green, NNaji etc all miss considerable time
and when they were thin they were forced to give some mins to guys like Jack White

it's all good

NBA season is long

You have some nice logic here. According to you, AG is playing great because Jokic makes him better, and Luka might not be able to do it. Then how about the other two max players in Murray and MPJ? Are they trashy enough that even Jokic could not make them better?
When you focus on Kleber missing games (past 14), you do realize that Josh Green just missed 16 straight, and DFS missed 10 straight as well. They were all part of Mavs key 8 rotations.

[Exp0sed]

You have some nice logic here. According to you, AG is playing great because Jokic makes him better, and Luka might not be able to do it. Then how about the other two max players in Murray and MPJ? Are they trashy enough that even Jokic could not make them better?
When you focus on Kleber missing games (past 14), you do realize that Josh Green just missed 16 straight, and DFS missed 10 straight as well. They were all part of Mavs key 8 rotations.

Huh?

I literally wrote that Luka would have been able to elevate AG as well, by finding him when he has deep position, pinpoint lobs etc (just like Jokic)

I also wrote that for most teams (who don't have that kind of truly elite passer\playermaker\player) - AG would be a low end starter

wow Josh Green, srsly that's what ur going with?

yes, i'm aware that Josh green and DFS have missed a month +

I didnt "focus" on anything, I listed the top 7 guys by minuets played for each team, because of those injuries those guys weren't on that list

Nuggets are healthier rn than Dallas but Dallas was healthier earlier in the season, I don't see what difference it makes
for the season, DFS has played in 31 games and Jeff green has played in 24 for the Nuggets

Kleber has played in 22 games while MPJ played in 25
ur grasping at straws my friend..

6/7 of the best Mavs players have played basically every game
Nuggets top 3-4 guys (after Jokic) have played less

as for the rest, Murray has been out for almost two seasons MPJ for a season
they're not at a 100% yet, no1 said they were trash or that Jokic is making them what they are (like he does to AG)
but if u think these guys don't also benefit somewhat by playing alongside Jokic, ur deluding urself

they've never played for a different team so I guess we just don't know

[Black star]

Jokic fans arguing that all his teammates are terrible and owe all their success and future earnings to him is hilarious.

Every time. You think Doncic is carrying a bad squad, well actually Jokic teammates are just as bad or maybe worse. You think defense gives KD or Giannis an edge, well actually Jokic is just as great at defense check the advanced stats.

He has his team first in the west, he's putting together another MVP caliber season, but that's still not enough. He has to win every argument. He could never have any help or weaknesses to diminish his case.

nah, the argument was that his teammates (especially with how long Murray and MPJ have been out and how far they are from a 100%) - are comparable to Doncic teammates

comparable, maybe one thinks this cast is a bit better maybe another thinks it's the other way around but most can agree that all in all - they're pretty close

you don't need to check "advanced stats"

Jokic haters seem to conflate two issues
Jokic is exploitable in the pnr and drop coverage, especially prone to floaters as he struggles to contest quickly enough
he is also a poor in defending transition and can be blown by with sheer quickness rather easily on the perimeter by quick guards

on the flip side, he's a good post defender, he's one of the best defensive rebounders in the league, both in totals and in DREB%
he leads he league for a couple of years now at Steals and deflections from the Center position

nothing "advanced" about any of those

there is also an indirect side to his defensive impact, as he leads the league in offensive rating
that means alot more Nuggets possesions end up in a made basket when he's playing compared to when he's not
offensive efficiency after a made basket is better (on average, significantly) than offensive efficiency after a miss or a TO

his haters just see a couple of plays of him helpless (btw every center in the league including the "elite" defenders have plenty of those and no1 starts threads about it) and assume he's terrible

well, if he's so terrible defensivley how is it that year after year the Nuggets defense is far worse when he sits on the bench?

like it or not Jokic has a positive impact on his team's defense
those "advanced stats" capture it, that's true
but regular box score stats + the eye test can tell u the exact same story

btw, just because he is challenged athletically doesn't mean he doesn't do other stuff to help his team on that end
his mind and court vision work just fine on both ends of the floor

he calls out the opponent's plays from time to time, he reads the offense and communicates to his teammates and he does it well

all the stuff that guys like Draymond are always heralded for
now Green is a much better defender personally, but the point is you don't have to be a Draymond level defender to direct ur teammates to their defensive spots, read and react

Jokic is doing his thing on the defensive end as well, don't kid urselves Jokic haters

Aaron Gordon has been playing like a borderline allstar. KCP was a crucial starter on a championship team. Both Jamal and MPJ are looking better as they get their legs under them and show flashes that DFS and Dinwiddie can't match. Do you understand it's not an insult to Jokic to say he has good teammates? They look like the favorites in the West but somehow Jokic is doing it singlehandedly?

I agree Jokic is decent to good on defense. It's still a weakness of his game. The fact you keep referring to me as a Jokic hater is a little off putting but I get that you are very passionate about your guy and don't want anyone to say anything negative about him.

[Exp0sed]

.

Aaron Gordon has been playing like a borderline allstar. KCP was a crucial starter on a championship team. Both Jamal and MPJ are looking better as they get their legs under them and show flashes that DFS and Dinwiddie can't match. Do you understand it's not an insult to Jokic to say he has good teammates? They look like the favorites in the West but somehow Jokic is doing it singlehandedly?

I agree Jokic is decent to good on defense. It's still a weakness of his game. The fact you keep referring to me as a Jokic hater is a little off putting but I get that you are very passionate about your guy and don't want anyone to say anything negative about him.

first of all, "Jokic Haters" wasn't directed at you personally
it was directed to his serial haters, believe me they know who they are

secondly, Jokic isn't "my guy"

thirdly, you can go back to last year and all the way thru this point, whenver Mavs cast was trashed and called "the worst in the league" etc. I argued that it wasn't that bad, but rather that it was ok. not hardly as bad as folks make it out to be

that's true this season as well

last season Jokic's cast was the worst in the league and this year - it's ok as well
strong at the top and weak at the middle\bottom

Nuggets are very thin, they have some extremely unproductive guys playing significant mins whenever a starter or two sits out

when\if Murray and MPJ will be back to their old selves - that cast will be very good but they're not there yet.

all I said was that the two rosters are comparable
Jokic isn't doing it singlehandedly (even tho he is the heaviest lifter this season as well) and Luka isn't doing it singlehandedly either

as for flashes of something that guys like DFS and Dinwiddie just don't have, ur 100% correct on that front

The Nuggets starting 5 + Brown as a sixth man will be a very strong (and dominant) rotation when MPJ and Murray are all the way back

Bones is still pretty bad and one of the worst defenders in the league, he isn't (yet) good enough to play backup (and spot starts) for an actual contender
neither is the rest of the Nuggets bench for the most part

idk what they're plan is when Jokic picks up two quick fouls in an important playoff game..play D. Jordan?
how hard can it be to get a decent backup

they're a couple of small roster moves + health and guys getting their groove back from being a serious contender imo

[LessEyeTest]

Jokic at halftime: 11 assists, 8 points, 5 rebounds lol. Everyone else is huffing & puffing up and down the court (Thomas Bryant especially), meanwhile Jokic is literally bringing the ball up fastbreak-style after each made basket by the Lakers. Is anyone else watching this? He had like 6 assists in the last 5 minutes of the quarter, ridiculous!

[BigGargamel]

Jokic at halftime: 11 assists, 8 points, 5 rebounds lol. Everyone else is huffing & puffing up and down the court (Thomas Bryant especially), meanwhile Jokic is literally bringing the ball up fastbreak-style after each made basket by the Lakers. Is anyone else watching this? He had like 6 assists in the last 5 minutes of the quarter, ridiculous!

Dude is third in the ENTIRE NBA in assists and might have 20 tonight. Full court water polo passes like it's absolutely nothing.

[Exp0sed]

Jokic at halftime: 11 assists, 8 points, 5 rebounds lol. Everyone else is huffing & puffing up and down the court (Thomas Bryant especially), meanwhile Jokic is literally bringing the ball up fastbreak-style after each made basket by the Lakers. Is anyone else watching this? He had like 6 assists in the last 5 minutes of the quarter, ridiculous!

i'm watching it and i've been mesmerized

I know the Lakers are without their stars but he is playing some sensational basketball

max effort

[Exp0sed]

delete wrong thread

[ITYSL]

Jokic and Doncic fans arguing about which supporting cast is worse is just hilarious to read through.

[Exp0sed]

Jokic and Doncic fans arguing about which supporting cast is worse is just hilarious to read through.

well, this is the MVP thread after all

since everybody else is injured..it's kinda down to Jokic\Luka\Tatum

so makes sense to compare the two

edit: and Giannis too probably unless he keeps resting as much as he has

[ITYSL]

Jokic and Doncic fans arguing about which supporting cast is worse is just hilarious to read through.

well, this is the MVP thread after all

since everybody else is injured..it's kinda down to Jokic\Luka\Tatum

so makes sense to compare the two

The thread has devolved from talking about the quality of play and impact of the top MVP candidates to arguing about which group of supporting role players is ****. It's hilarious.

[Archx]

Jokic and Doncic fans arguing about which supporting cast is worse is just hilarious to read through.

well, this is the MVP thread after all

since everybody else is injured..it's kinda down to Jokic\Luka\Tatum

so makes sense to compare the two

edit: and Giannis too probably unless he keeps resting as much as he has

You made a way too big of a deal about teammates than anyone even imagined

[Wolfgang630]

Joker gotta rack up them assists to make sure he averages a triple double for the season

[rocketsfan100]

Jokic as a 7 footer gets 16 assists like it’s just another night at the office. Only a few elite playmaking guards like Harden, Luka, hali and Paul can get that amount of assists in a game…..Jokic is a freaking 7 foot 1 giant. Jokic a three time MVP

[CobraCommander]

Jokic is playing with the league - everyone else is demonstrating that they can get gaudy numbers while struggling to win and jokic is proving you can be efficient effective and blow teams out by making his teammates better...

PointCenterGod

If Stockton Malone and Curry had a baby...or if wilt was European

[moderndarwin]

These are some hot takes lol. The Luka and Joker love in here next level. Would think they’re multiple time chip winners not ringless wannabes.

Will be good to watch Steph walk them down again this year. He elevates his teammates in a way they can’t - with offball movement. He opens up the floor so NBA level athletes have constant micro advantages and can utilize then. It’s just different. And the results play it out.

[youngthegiant]

This is Luka's MVP to lose...All he has to do is get his team to 48 wins(what Jokic was able to do last season). He'll have to go to 25-16 to reach that mark. Otherwise it's up for grabs.

[GeorgeSears]

Doncic definitely has the worst supporting cast of all the MVP contenders. I don't think that's debatable. The team is built for Luka to drive in and then either score or kick it out for a 3.

The problem is that when those players don't hit 3s they can't really do anything else. Outside of Spencer Dinwiddie, they don't have anyone on their starting lineup that can hit 40% or over from 3 this season. Dinwiddie isn't a catch and shoot type player either. They've also fallen off on defense as well.