Game #42: HAWKS @ Clippers Sunday 1/8 6 PM [NOTE TIME]

[og15]

The drop coverage on screen roll for the Clippers has been very poor recently. You cannot let guys just line up wide open mid-range shots- they have done this with Embiid, Turner, and now Young.

For sure, and it's tough because defensively you can't stop everything, so you have to give up something.

When the other team starts killing you at the something you are giving up, then you get into that situation every coach hates where you either ride it out and hope they don't stay hot or that you can out produce those shots....or you adjust, but then you start giving up a corner three, back cut or something else when that guy swings the ball or finds a cutter.

Of course that's what the opposing team also hopes, that their star gets hot in the less efficient area, then you overplay and then they get open three's, layups or dunks off the pass or off the additional ball movement passes after that.

[TrueLAfan]

The only silver lining I see is Mann replacing Reggie in the starting lineup and I hope this is long term. I hope with PG in the lineup and Batum healthy that this team will turn this around.
Reggie and Wall are both disappointing. Give those minutes to Preston.

Preston is a great story line, but he'd get absolutely abused.

Reggie just needs to take some time off, recover from that fall he took a few games ago, hasn't been the same since that. Just needs to pull a PG and rest instead of trying to give effort when he doesn't have it.

Wall and Reggie are getting abused by quicker guards. Preston may not be such a bad idea to play behind Mann. Now that Lue is finally warning up to the Mann at starting PG idea.

I agree that 1) Preston would get abused, and 2) Wall and Reggie are getting abused by quicker guards. Goes back to needing a defensive minded, pass-first PG. And Mann provides half of that, so I think he'll look good 50% of the time. But every complaint about PG making crap passes and people standing around will be amplified. I'm not saying Mann can't be somewhat capable at it, but I don't see him as a long term answer.

I do think Reggie is banged up--but, yeah, I also agree he's moving into his mid-30s, and doesn't have a game that is going translate well as he loses physicality amd quickness. Being banged up simply hurts him nore, and will continue to until ... well, forever.

[madmaxmedia]

Preston is a great story line, but he'd get absolutely abused.

Reggie just needs to take some time off, recover from that fall he took a few games ago, hasn't been the same since that. Just needs to pull a PG and rest instead of trying to give effort when he doesn't have it.

Wall and Reggie are getting abused by quicker guards. Preston may not be such a bad idea to play behind Mann. Now that Lue is finally warning up to the Mann at starting PG idea.

I agree that 1) Preston would get abused, and 2) Wall and Reggie are getting abused by quicker guards. Goes back to needing a defensive minded, pass-first PG. And Mann provides half of that, so I think he'll look good 50% of the time. But every complaint about PG making crap passes and people standing around will be amplified. I'm not saying Mann can't be somewhat capable at it, but I don't see him as a long term answer.

I do think Reggie is banged up--but, yeah, I also agree he's moving into his mid-30s, and doesn't have a game that is going translate well as he loses physicality amd quickness. Being banged up simply hurts him nore, and will continue to until ... well, forever.

I guess my thought is that when PG and Kawhi are healthy (and that's the most important scenario because we're a play-in level team anyway if they're not healthy), maybe Mann can be our starting point. We all know we don't need a 10 APG guy out there with those 2, so Mann could hopefully do a credible job and get more minutes because he contributes in many other ways for us. He doesn't have to split minutes with Powell and Kennard, who are better at scoring at the 2 position. We all know our team is old and lacks juice, finding a 30+ MPG role for Terance can only help with that. His inconsistent scoring and offensive aggressiveness are also less of an issue when he's playing point and there are scorers around him. He'll not be a dynamic playmaker, but he's always been a cohesive presence on the floor which is what you want out of your point guard.

We all became enamored with Terance in his first summer league when he played point guard and suddenly seemed to be this big upside guy. Playing PG in the big league is a different manner, but perhaps now he is experienced enough to make it work well with the players we have around him (i.e. with both Kawhi and PG.)

Reggie can be a 15-18 MPG instant offense type guy off the bench to keep Reggie healthier, fresher, and probably more efficient too. Wall can get minutes at the 1, but his MPG can be based on how well he does (and hopefully improves) as the season goes on.

As you say it's not the ideal answer, but maybe it's the best answer we have right now. IIRC Clemenza has suggested this before, but I didn't really consider it since it just didn't seem like Terance was an NBA point guard. But maybe...

[Wammy Giveaway]

I guess my thought is that when PG and Kawhi are healthy (and that's the most important scenario because we're a play-in level team anyway if they're not healthy), maybe Mann can be our starting point. We all know we don't need a 10 APG guy out there with those 2, so Mann could hopefully do a credible job and get more minutes because he contributes in many other ways for us. He doesn't have to split minutes with Powell and Kennard, who are better at scoring at the 2 position. We all know our team is old and lacks juice, finding a 30+ MPG role for Terance can only help with that. His inconsistent scoring and offensive aggressiveness are also less of an issue when he's playing point and there are scorers around him. He'll not be a dynamic playmaker, but he's always been a cohesive presence on the floor which is what you want out of your point guard.

As you say it's not the ideal answer, but maybe it's the best answer we have right now. IIRC Clemenza has suggested this before, but I didn't really consider it since it just didn't seem like Terance was an NBA point guard. But maybe...

I hinted at this probably since Leonard first arrived, but maybe it's time the Clippers give up the idea of ever having a true point guard and just go point guard by committee. With a guard-ward (shooting guard/small forward hybrid) starting at the 1 spot, they should make that position a wild card. You can make unusual lineup combinations like:

1. SG-SG-SF-PF-C, two shooting guards
2. SG-SF-SF-PF-C, two small forwards
3. SF-SF-SF-PF-C, three small forwards
4. SF-SF-PF-PF-C, two small forwards and two power forwards
5. SF-SF-F-PF-PF, an all forward lineup

If any one of these positions has point guard capabilities, that solves the playmaking problem.

Without a playmaker, the Clippers will have to play defensive switch. Have the point guard spot occupied by a defensive specialist like Mann while having the offense handled by any one of their superstars or a point forward like Batum. Play offense from a defense perspective.

[esqtvd]

Wall and Reggie are getting abused by quicker guards. Preston may not be such a bad idea to play behind Mann. Now that Lue is finally warning up to the Mann at starting PG idea.

I agree that 1) Preston would get abused, and 2) Wall and Reggie are getting abused by quicker guards. Goes back to needing a defensive minded, pass-first PG. And Mann provides half of that, so I think he'll look good 50% of the time. But every complaint about PG making crap passes and people standing around will be amplified. I'm not saying Mann can't be somewhat capable at it, but I don't see him as a long term answer.

I do think Reggie is banged up--but, yeah, I also agree he's moving into his mid-30s, and doesn't have a game that is going translate well as he loses physicality amd quickness. Being banged up simply hurts him nore, and will continue to until ... well, forever.

I guess my thought is that when PG and Kawhi are healthy (and that's the most important scenario because we're a play-in level team anyway if they're not healthy), maybe Mann can be our starting point. We all know we don't need a 10 APG guy out there with those 2, so Mann could hopefully do a credible job and get more minutes because he contributes in many other ways for us. He doesn't have to split minutes with Powell and Kennard, who are better at scoring at the 2 position. We all know our team is old and lacks juice, finding a 30+ MPG role for Terance can only help with that. His inconsistent scoring and offensive aggressiveness are also less of an issue when he's playing point and there are scorers around him. He'll not be a dynamic playmaker, but he's always been a cohesive presence on the floor which is what you want out of your point guard.

We all became enamored with Terance in his first summer league when he played point guard and suddenly seemed to be this big upside guy. Playing PG in the big league is a different manner, but perhaps now he is experienced enough to make it work well with the players we have around him (i.e. with both Kawhi and PG.)

Reggie can be a 15-18 MPG instant offense type guy off the bench to keep Reggie healthier, fresher, and probably more efficient too. Wall can get minutes at the 1, but his MPG can be based on how well he does (and hopefully improves) as the season goes on.

As you say it's not the ideal answer, but maybe it's the best answer we have right now. IIRC Clemenza has suggested this before, but I didn't really consider it since it just didn't seem like Terance was an NBA point guard. But maybe...

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Trae Young still went for 30 and T-Mann still finished minus-4 while every other starter finished in the plus. Can he play the point at an NBA level? Can't hurt to find out. Reggie needs a reboot and I don't even know what to do about Wall.

And we don't even have the option to do much about Senior with only Batum over 6'7" and he's 34. Ty started both last night and played Kawhi and Zu 38 minutes each. That's not the blueprint, that's the panic button.

Coach Tyronn Lue tinkered with the lineup as the Clippers dropped their sixth straight game Sunday night, writes Ohm Youngmisuk of ESPN. Reggie Jackson, who has been the starting point guard for the past two-plus seasons, played just eight minutes, all in the first half, as Lue turned to Terance Mann to improve the team’s defense. Lue explained that the change isn’t necessarily permanent. “No, I just think tonight it was Reggie,” he said. “Then tomorrow, it could be somebody else. Just kind of experimenting with different things. When you lose five games in a row, you want to try some different things.”

[Roscoe Sheed]

The drop coverage on screen roll for the Clippers has been very poor recently. You cannot let guys just line up wide open mid-range shots- they have done this with Embiid, Turner, and now Young.

For sure, and it's tough because defensively you can't stop everything, so you have to give up something.

When the other team starts killing you at the something you are giving up, then you get into that situation every coach hates where you either ride it out and hope they don't stay hot or that you can out produce those shots....or you adjust, but then you start giving up a corner three, back cut or something else when that guy swings the ball or finds a cutter.

Of course that's what the opposing team also hopes, that their star gets hot in the less efficient area, then you overplay and then they get open three's, layups or dunks off the pass or off the additional ball movement passes after that.

Part of the problem is that the initial defenders are not fighting through the screens very well- you have to try to stay with your man as much as possible

[Ballings7]

Every coach gets to the point where you can't simply do the same thing and hope things correct. Sometimes injuries force coaches into it (Lakers with Lonnie Walker for example), sometimes they make the decision themselves.

Reggie is not a staple starter in this league, no one thought he was, we always knew the starting PG was a flex position as well as possibly the starting PF. What the coaching staff was trying to do was get Reggie circa 2021 playoffs back again. Kawhi has played more recently and so has George, Reggie is shooting 29% 3PT in his last 9 games. He shot well from outside in November and December (38.6% 3PT both months), but shot poorly from the field overall in December. Turnovers haven't been the best, his TS% for the season is pretty bad at 51.8%, and he's obviously been way off in his 4 January games.

The main value for Reggie as the starting PG was his outside shooting. What the coaching staff was trying to get is that consistent 40%+ 3PT he gave his first two seasons. That's the main skill he has over someone like Mann or even Wall who hasn't been good anyways.

Of course injuries, etc have been a factor, but if after 38 games you haven't really seen it, it's not a situation where this is James Harden in a shooting slump and you keep at it, you just have to reduce his minutes, try something else, but keep an eye on him in the other role to see if things turn up for him.

Clippers of course have to be active at the deadline, sometimes it's just that the fit doesn't materialize as one envisioned.

They have a month to evaluate the lineups and fit and then see if they need to make adjustments.

Well said.

Team needs to round out a bit on the wings offensively and defensively (a bit more size up front at PF/C, more dedicated facilitator), to even up.

I'd keep Norm Powell if possible because of his energy on both ends, scoring reliability and versatility, but look to trade Morris and Reggie, and to a lesser degree Covington (still believe in him, and believe he hasn't been in full rhythm yet) primarily -- but if Norm has to go then he does.

If Mann had to go, then he does, but that to me is a last resort for someone to get back as an impact.

Not sure about Zubac, but have to get someone back to replace him that's "different" or "better".

Wall I think the team is kind of stuck here with him.. but I think he could be valuable in the playoffs in the right line-up.

Going to be an interesting next 1.5 months; but 1-2 guys are gonna be traded/waived, is a very good possibility.

[Ballings7]

Wall and Reggie are getting abused by quicker guards. Preston may not be such a bad idea to play behind Mann. Now that Lue is finally warning up to the Mann at starting PG idea.

I agree that 1) Preston would get abused, and 2) Wall and Reggie are getting abused by quicker guards. Goes back to needing a defensive minded, pass-first PG. And Mann provides half of that, so I think he'll look good 50% of the time. But every complaint about PG making crap passes and people standing around will be amplified. I'm not saying Mann can't be somewhat capable at it, but I don't see him as a long term answer.

I do think Reggie is banged up--but, yeah, I also agree he's moving into his mid-30s, and doesn't have a game that is going translate well as he loses physicality amd quickness. Being banged up simply hurts him nore, and will continue to until ... well, forever.

I guess my thought is that when PG and Kawhi are healthy (and that's the most important scenario because we're a play-in level team anyway if they're not healthy), maybe Mann can be our starting point. We all know we don't need a 10 APG guy out there with those 2, so Mann could hopefully do a credible job and get more minutes because he contributes in many other ways for us. He doesn't have to split minutes with Powell and Kennard, who are better at scoring at the 2 position. We all know our team is old and lacks juice, finding a 30+ MPG role for Terance can only help with that. His inconsistent scoring and offensive aggressiveness are also less of an issue when he's playing point and there are scorers around him. He'll not be a dynamic playmaker, but he's always been a cohesive presence on the floor which is what you want out of your point guard.

We all became enamored with Terance in his first summer league when he played point guard and suddenly seemed to be this big upside guy. Playing PG in the big league is a different manner, but perhaps now he is experienced enough to make it work well with the players we have around him (i.e. with both Kawhi and PG.)

Reggie can be a 15-18 MPG instant offense type guy off the bench to keep Reggie healthier, fresher, and probably more efficient too. Wall can get minutes at the 1, but his MPG can be based on how well he does (and hopefully improves) as the season goes on.

As you say it's not the ideal answer, but maybe it's the best answer we have right now. IIRC Clemenza has suggested this before, but I didn't really consider it since it just didn't seem like Terance was an NBA point guard. But maybe...

I think Reggie always should of been a 6th man primarily, like he was in OKC.. but Mann combining not to show enough in early season + not getting enough opportunities since 2021, has kept Reggie as an over-used starter this season, where exposure is going to be more likely to occur from night to night. Kind of a misread and continued void by the org, to me.

In the least, Reggie rests a bit and returns to being an off the bench guy where he'll have his hot nights and finishes some games, or helps bring the team back.. think at this point riding Mann will give a better development and improvement opportunity for what the team needs more of.

Even though Mann probably doesn't have all the tools, he does I think have enough of the tools, where that confidence can continue to grow, and be complimentary both ways with PG, Batum, and Kawhi.

[og15]

The drop coverage on screen roll for the Clippers has been very poor recently. You cannot let guys just line up wide open mid-range shots- they have done this with Embiid, Turner, and now Young.

For sure, and it's tough because defensively you can't stop everything, so you have to give up something.

When the other team starts killing you at the something you are giving up, then you get into that situation every coach hates where you either ride it out and hope they don't stay hot or that you can out produce those shots....or you adjust, but then you start giving up a corner three, back cut or something else when that guy swings the ball or finds a cutter.

Of course that's what the opposing team also hopes, that their star gets hot in the less efficient area, then you overplay and then they get open three's, layups or dunks off the pass or off the additional ball movement passes after that.

Part of the problem is that the initial defenders are not fighting through the screens very well- you have to try to stay with your man as much as possible

Point of attack defenders can definitely set the tone. That's why some teams who are capable just switch instead, but that has its holes too. Initial defense is certainly supposed to trail close and be in a position where they can contest from behind or make the shot a little less comfortable. If course great offensive guys will counter with putting you in jail, occupying the big long enough to make him have to choose between contest or sticking with the roller. The initial defenders recovery definitely plays a big part.

[Roscoe Sheed]

For sure, and it's tough because defensively you can't stop everything, so you have to give up something.

When the other team starts killing you at the something you are giving up, then you get into that situation every coach hates where you either ride it out and hope they don't stay hot or that you can out produce those shots....or you adjust, but then you start giving up a corner three, back cut or something else when that guy swings the ball or finds a cutter.

Of course that's what the opposing team also hopes, that their star gets hot in the less efficient area, then you overplay and then they get open three's, layups or dunks off the pass or off the additional ball movement passes after that.

Part of the problem is that the initial defenders are not fighting through the screens very well- you have to try to stay with your man as much as possible

Point of attack defenders can definitely set the tone. That's why some teams who are capable just switch instead, but that has its holes too. Initial defense is certainly supposed to trail close and be in a position where they can contest from behind or make the shot a little less comfortable. If course great offensive guys will counter with putting you in jail, occupying the big long enough to make him have to choose between contest or sticking with the roller. The initial defenders recovery definitely plays a big part.

very true-

my point is that you at least have to try.

I know that the mid-range is what you want to give up if you have to, but NBA players are so good that if let them line up wide open shot after wide open shot they might make 80% of them- Embiid hardly missed and it looked like the mid-range floaters that Young took were certain to go in with such weak resistance.

[madmaxmedia]

Even though Mann probably doesn't have all the tools, he does I think have enough of the tools, where that confidence can continue to grow, and be complimentary both ways with PG, Batum, and Kawhi.

We definitely need more of what he already does well, and with our particular roster I think trying him as primary point guard allows us to put more scoring on the floor overall. He's certainly not a prototypical NBA point guard, but has always been a willing passer and team first guy.

He would also be a first unit guy for sure, as you would want PG/Kawhi on the floor with him. I think that makes rotations easier.

[esqtvd]

Even though Mann probably doesn't have all the tools, he does I think have enough of the tools, where that confidence can continue to grow, and be complimentary both ways with PG, Batum, and Kawhi.

We definitely need more of what he already does well, and with our particular roster I think trying him as primary point guard allows us to put more scoring on the floor overall. He's certainly not a prototypical NBA point guard, but has always been a willing passer and team first guy.

He would also be a first unit guy for sure, as you would want PG/Kawhi on the floor with him. I think that makes rotations easier.

Kawhi played 38 minutes and according to this, was the real point guard. I don't know if that's sustainable.

Mann was not a one-for-one replacement for Jackson’s ballhandling: More often the pace was controlled by Leonard, who turned the corner on high pick and rolls with his eyes on the rim and applied pressure on Atlanta’s defense to establish an early eight-point lead, doing the things he had asked for days earlier.

Leonard’s “pace” left Lue most encouraged, he said. Leonard said he enjoyed the more uptempo nature of the new starting lineup.

Mann’s insertion into the starting lineup begged the question of how much the change was designed to last, and how much of it stemmed from Lue, already knowing his lineups would be altered because of Kennard and George’s absence, throwing a new idea in hopes of lighting a short-term fire. Either way, hard rotation decisions are coming for Lue as he sorts out the roles and responsibilities for his glut of guards, four weeks before the NBA’s trade deadline. If Mann continues his transformation from the rotation’s odd man out to a fixture, the trickle-down effect would have consequences for Jackson, Wall and Kennard.

[nickhx2]

have always wanted to try mann at PG and have spoken often about it, so i sure hope it works out

[madmaxmedia]

Even though Mann probably doesn't have all the tools, he does I think have enough of the tools, where that confidence can continue to grow, and be complimentary both ways with PG, Batum, and Kawhi.

We definitely need more of what he already does well, and with our particular roster I think trying him as primary point guard allows us to put more scoring on the floor overall. He's certainly not a prototypical NBA point guard, but has always been a willing passer and team first guy.

He would also be a first unit guy for sure, as you would want PG/Kawhi on the floor with him. I think that makes rotations easier.

Kawhi played 38 minutes and according to this, was the real point guard. I don't know if that's sustainable.

Mann was not a one-for-one replacement for Jackson’s ballhandling: More often the pace was controlled by Leonard, who turned the corner on high pick and rolls with his eyes on the rim and applied pressure on Atlanta’s defense to establish an early eight-point lead, doing the things he had asked for days earlier.

Leonard’s “pace” left Lue most encouraged, he said. Leonard said he enjoyed the more uptempo nature of the new starting lineup.

Mann’s insertion into the starting lineup begged the question of how much the change was designed to last, and how much of it stemmed from Lue, already knowing his lineups would be altered because of Kennard and George’s absence, throwing a new idea in hopes of lighting a short-term fire. Either way, hard rotation decisions are coming for Lue as he sorts out the roles and responsibilities for his glut of guards, four weeks before the NBA’s trade deadline. If Mann continues his transformation from the rotation’s odd man out to a fixture, the trickle-down effect would have consequences for Jackson, Wall and Kennard.

Yeah, as far as specifically running point Mann is not an improvement over Reggie Jackson IMO. But I do think the team could really use more minutes from Mann and Jackson needs less minutes to be more efficient. Mann's age gives us more energy and hustle on the floor.

The benefits only work out if Mann can be reasonably credible running the point (which is hopeful speculation I guess.) I agree it can't be Kawhi doing it all, but that's where I'm seeing Mann at point in our healthy/ideal line up with both PG and Kawhi. Mann can help the team a lot more than say Wall without the ball in his hands, and Reggie's minutes can be optimized.

[esqtvd]

We definitely need more of what he already does well, and with our particular roster I think trying him as primary point guard allows us to put more scoring on the floor overall. He's certainly not a prototypical NBA point guard, but has always been a willing passer and team first guy.

He would also be a first unit guy for sure, as you would want PG/Kawhi on the floor with him. I think that makes rotations easier.

Kawhi played 38 minutes and according to this, was the real point guard. I don't know if that's sustainable.

Mann was not a one-for-one replacement for Jackson’s ballhandling: More often the pace was controlled by Leonard, who turned the corner on high pick and rolls with his eyes on the rim and applied pressure on Atlanta’s defense to establish an early eight-point lead, doing the things he had asked for days earlier.

Leonard’s “pace” left Lue most encouraged, he said. Leonard said he enjoyed the more uptempo nature of the new starting lineup.

Mann’s insertion into the starting lineup begged the question of how much the change was designed to last, and how much of it stemmed from Lue, already knowing his lineups would be altered because of Kennard and George’s absence, throwing a new idea in hopes of lighting a short-term fire. Either way, hard rotation decisions are coming for Lue as he sorts out the roles and responsibilities for his glut of guards, four weeks before the NBA’s trade deadline. If Mann continues his transformation from the rotation’s odd man out to a fixture, the trickle-down effect would have consequences for Jackson, Wall and Kennard.

Yeah, as far as specifically running point Mann is not an improvement over Reggie Jackson IMO. But I do think the team could really use more minutes from Mann and Jackson needs less minutes to be more efficient. Mann's age gives us more energy and hustle on the floor.

The benefits only work out if Mann can be reasonably credible running the point (which is hopeful speculation I guess.) I agree it can't be Kawhi doing it all, but that's where I'm seeing Mann at point in our healthy/ideal line up with both PG and Kawhi. Mann can help the team a lot more than say Wall without the ball in his hands, and Reggie's minutes can be optimized.

.



Once again the finger points back at Wall. He's hurt a lot and stinks to high heaven when he's not. Reggie was always a placeholder starter who ended up exceeding expectations last year. (IIRC, he was signed as an afterthought as bench depth, not even as a rotation player.)

The Clippers at full strength can cover for Reggie defensively and he filled the role of bringing up the ball and sticking the spot-up 3. But that's not the norm at the moment. There's no defensive cover and the offense is disjointed with the revolving door of injuries.

Mann is best when things are chaotic and that's the situation now. But it still comes back to Wall. Logically he should be the starting point guard if you demote Reggie but with the worst plus/minus on the team, that's a scary thought.

[nickhx2]

one thing i think perhaps is super understated is that with mann in the game, it's not just one player, but two! (kawhi and mann) players who will deny paul george from trying to initiate the action with the ball in his hands.

like, paul george is such an enormous blight on running simple, basic sets that simply having those extra, unscrewed possessions will be like free money on the ground.

[nickhx2]

and i of course say that with the idea that lue will ask mann to play as the initiator or bringing up the ball, alongside kawhi, and prioritize both of them over pg.

i also of course say that with the extreme concern that lue will still prioritize paul george for that role over mann and has learned exactly nothing over the past few years in regards to his failure of an experiment.

"guys, what if we make one of the worst decision makers on the team with one of the worst handles, our PRIMARY ball handler? and let's KEEP doing it for years and years and years" - ty lue, probably