Top 10 players 96-97 through 21-22?

[ceiling raiser]

In the first 26 years of the so-called 'databall' era, who are your top 10?

1. LeBron James
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Steph Curry
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Kevin Durant
8. James Harden
9. Nikola Jokic
10. Steve Nash

[70sFan]

Not counting this season:

1. LeBron James
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Steph Curry
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Chris Paul
9. Kevin Durant
10. Steve Nash

HM:

James Harden
Dwyane Wade

[dygaction]

1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Curry
5. Kobe
6. Durant
7. Dirk
8. Giannis
9. KG/Jokic
10. Jokic/KG
Likely Jokic ahead of KG after this season if he 3 peats or wins a ring by the summer.

HM: Wade, CP3, Nash

[70sFan]

I get that some people are higher on peaks than longevity, bur Jokic has total of 4 seasons at all-nba level, while Kobe and Garnett have like 12 at least...

[HeartBreakKid]

I get that some people are higher on peaks than longevity, bur Jokic has total of 4 seasons at all-nba level, while Kobe and Garnett have like 12 at least...

I think it's safe to say based on 19-22 and this year that those seasons aren't flukes, 70sfan.

Should we just pretend that he doesn't exist because he did not play an arbitrary number of seasons? His prime seems quite established to me.

[Dutchball97]

I get that some people are higher on peaks than longevity, bur Jokic has total of 4 seasons at all-nba level, while Kobe and Garnett have like 12 at least...

I agree with the premise as Kobe and KG are top 10 contenders, while Jokic still has some way to go before getting into that tier imo. However, your statement does seem a bit misleading to me. Yeah Jokic has 4 All-NBA selections but he's already halfway through another season where he's the runaway frontrunner for All-NBA 1st team and possibly even a 3rd MVP. 2017 and 2018 are also definitely "All-NBA" level. Kobe literally only has one season with a higher BPM than Jokic had in 2017 but that's not enough for it to even be considered "All-NBA level" now? I know some here (not necessarily saying you are) are allergic to boxscore stats but even his RAPM for those early years are definitely good enough for that All-NBA level label, might even want to include his 2016 rookie campaign in that case.

On the other hand you give KG at least 12 All-NBA level seasons when he only has 9 actual selections. Sure he probably deserves a couple more too but 4 at most vs 12 at least isn't a fair depiction of their careers.

[Jaivl]

Between the Harden > Kobe guy and the Jokic > KG guy, that's certainly a way to start a thread.

1. LeBron James
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Shaquille O’Neal
7. Stephen Curry
8. Chris Paul
9. Kevin Durant
10. Steve Nash

[70sFan]

I get that some people are higher on peaks than longevity, bur Jokic has total of 4 seasons at all-nba level, while Kobe and Garnett have like 12 at least...

I think it's safe to say based on 19-22 and this year that those seasons aren't flukes, 70sfan.

Should we just pretend that he doesn't exist because he did not play an arbitrary number of seasons? His prime seems quite established to me.

I guess it depends on what you value. To me having 4 very strong seasons isn't better than having 10 similarily strong seasons. I thought it makes sense.

Some people act like not being inside top 10 players of the last 25 years while starting his prime is an insult...

[70sFan]

I get that some people are higher on peaks than longevity, bur Jokic has total of 4 seasons at all-nba level, while Kobe and Garnett have like 12 at least...

I agree with the premise as Kobe and KG are top 10 contenders, while Jokic still has some way to go before getting into that tier imo. However, your statement does seem a bit misleading to me. Yeah Jokic has 4 All-NBA selections but he's already halfway through another season where he's the runaway frontrunner for All-NBA 1st team and possibly even a 3rd MVP. 2017 and 2018 are also definitely "All-NBA" level. Kobe literally only has one season with a higher BPM than Jokic had in 2017 but that's not enough for it to even be considered "All-NBA level" now? I know some here (not necessarily saying you are) are allergic to boxscore stats but even his RAPM for those early years are definitely good enough for that All-NBA level label, might even want to include his 2016 rookie campaign in that case.

On the other hand you give KG at least 12 All-NBA level seasons when he only has 9 actual selections. Sure he probably deserves a couple more too but 4 at most vs 12 at least isn't a fair depiction of their careers.

I guess you can sneak in 2018 as a weak all-nba level year, but you can't convince me that Jokic could be all-nba level player while playing 28 mpg and not being all-time level in 2017. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I already said that I don't use 2023, because we haven't even reached half of the season yet. Again, I don't see the point of treating 2023 as another MVP level for Jokic when he didn't finish the season yet.

[rk2023]

Taking away 4 Shaq seasons makes this interesting

LeBron
Duncan
Kobe
Garnett
O'Neal
Curry (climbing)
Paul
Nowitzki
Durant (climbing)
Nash

[dygaction]

I get that some people are higher on peaks than longevity, bur Jokic has total of 4 seasons at all-nba level, while Kobe and Garnett have like 12 at least...

I agree with the premise as Kobe and KG are top 10 contenders, while Jokic still has some way to go before getting into that tier imo. However, your statement does seem a bit misleading to me. Yeah Jokic has 4 All-NBA selections but he's already halfway through another season where he's the runaway frontrunner for All-NBA 1st team and possibly even a 3rd MVP. 2017 and 2018 are also definitely "All-NBA" level. Kobe literally only has one season with a higher BPM than Jokic had in 2017 but that's not enough for it to even be considered "All-NBA level" now? I know some here (not necessarily saying you are) are allergic to boxscore stats but even his RAPM for those early years are definitely good enough for that All-NBA level label, might even want to include his 2016 rookie campaign in that case.

On the other hand you give KG at least 12 All-NBA level seasons when he only has 9 actual selections. Sure he probably deserves a couple more too but 4 at most vs 12 at least isn't a fair depiction of their careers.

Kobe and KG should not go together with "at least 12 All-NBA level seasons" as Kobe actually had 15 (11x 1st team) and KG had 9 (4x 1st team).

KG's case in top 10 is mostly based on advanced stats as he lacked team success in his prime, but Jokic is king of all advanced stats. In his worst season among all 7 seasons (exclude rookie), he had 24.3 PER, 6.9 BPM, .211 WS/48, and 5.5 VORP. KG had 5 seasons with better PER, 5 seasons with better BPM, and 5 seasons with better WS/48, and 8 seasons with better VORP. If KG has "at least" 12, Jokic should have 7 All-NBA level seasons.

[Proxy]

Some order of Shaq, KG, Kobe, Tim, Dirk, LeBron, CP3, KD, Steph are my fairly comfortable picks for career and either Nash or Wade likely to round my T10 out.

Harden, Kawhi, and AD are the next closest 3. - I view Kawhi and AD as better players than some there peak wise but I don't feel those 3 have particularly strong career trajectory moving forward aside from AD if his stretch this year is really who he is as a player moving forward.

Career wise I feel both Giannis and Jokic have the best shots at entering that group for me eventually considering their ages seeing as I believe both have peaks arguably higher than almost half my list as is (I need to see a more significant playoff sample at both playing at their current levels for me to push them over those comfortably prime wise, both of them have been pretty shaky so far).

EDIT: Exclusively peak wise i'll take Shaq, KG, Kobe, Tim, LBJ, KD Steph, AD, Giannis, Jokic

[Dutchball97]

I get that some people are higher on peaks than longevity, bur Jokic has total of 4 seasons at all-nba level, while Kobe and Garnett have like 12 at least...

I agree with the premise as Kobe and KG are top 10 contenders, while Jokic still has some way to go before getting into that tier imo. However, your statement does seem a bit misleading to me. Yeah Jokic has 4 All-NBA selections but he's already halfway through another season where he's the runaway frontrunner for All-NBA 1st team and possibly even a 3rd MVP. 2017 and 2018 are also definitely "All-NBA" level. Kobe literally only has one season with a higher BPM than Jokic had in 2017 but that's not enough for it to even be considered "All-NBA level" now? I know some here (not necessarily saying you are) are allergic to boxscore stats but even his RAPM for those early years are definitely good enough for that All-NBA level label, might even want to include his 2016 rookie campaign in that case.

On the other hand you give KG at least 12 All-NBA level seasons when he only has 9 actual selections. Sure he probably deserves a couple more too but 4 at most vs 12 at least isn't a fair depiction of their careers.

I guess you can sneak in 2018 as a weak all-nba level year, but you can't convince me that Jokic could be all-nba level player while playing 28 mpg and not being all-time level in 2017. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I already said that I don't use 2023, because we haven't even reached half of the season yet. Again, I don't see the point of treating 2023 as another MVP level for Jokic when he didn't finish the season yet.

I think players like Bobby Jones and Manu Ginobili quite easily disprove the idea that a 28mpg player can't be All-NBA level. Even if you don't think a player deserves an All-NBA selection due to limited minutes, that still doesn't change that they could be playing at an All-NBA level. Even then I don't want to be too nitpicky as I hate that stuff myself so maybe the 12+ All-NBA seasons for KG were an off the cuff estimation but you do need to realize that by your criteria KG has a maximum of 12 All-NBA years, not minimum. 97-08 gives you a 12-year window where KG could've realistically been All-NBA every year but after that KG doesn't play much more than 2017 Jokic, if at all. Post-08 you've got 2011 where KG plays less than 200 minutes more than 2017 Jokic and 2012 where KG would've played a similar amount of minutes as the year prior if not for the shortened season. I just don't see how 2k minutes and 28mpg (which increased over the season anyway) isn't enough but 2.2k minutes on 31mpg is. For what it's worth 2017 Jokic got just about the same amount of All-NBA traction that KG got in 2011 and 2012.

Once again I agree with your premise that Jokic isn't there yet but 4 vs 12+ seasons of All-NBA play just doesn't rhyme with me.

[ty 4191]

I get that some people are higher on peaks than longevity, bur Jokic has total of 4 seasons at all-nba level, while Kobe and Garnett have like 12 at least...

Jokic's last 3 seasons, including playoffs, has averaged 26.4/12.0/8.3 on +8.6 rTS%. That's across 198 games! And, he's put up that volume while playing only 33.9 MPG.

How many players have put up that line for even a single season with that efficiency?

[eminence]

My top 5 would likely be:

LeBron
Duncan
KG
Kobe
Dirk

And then I’m unsure how to do Shaq vs the current guys. CP3/Shaq/Curry/KD/Harden my likely picks, but unsure on order, maybe Nash gets in?

Thought on it:
LeBron
Duncan
KG
Kobe
Dirk
CP3
Steph
KD
Shaq
Harden

HM: Nash/Wade/Kidd

HHM: Pierce/Carter/Allen

[70sFan]

I think players like Bobby Jones and Manu Ginobili quite easily disprove the idea that a 28mpg player can't be All-NBA level. Even if you don't think a player deserves an All-NBA selection due to limited minutes, that still doesn't change that they could be playing at an All-NBA level.

Manu played more minutes in his best RS years:

2005: 29.6
2006: 27.9
2007: 27.5
2008: 31.1
2009: 26.8
2010: 28.7
2011: 30.3

I would only consider Manu for all-nba talks in 2005, 2008 and 2011. Jones played more minutes than 2017 Jokic in all his seasons until 1980 and I don't think Jones was all-nba level player at that point (though he still had a great impact).

Another thing is that I consider peak Manu and peak Jones to be better players than young Jokic.

Even then I don't want to be too nitpicky as I hate that stuff myself so maybe the 12+ All-NBA seasons for KG were an off the cuff estimation but you do need to realize that by your criteria KG has a maximum of 12 All-NBA years, not minimum. 97-08 gives you a 12-year window where KG could've realistically been All-NBA every year but after that KG doesn't play much more than 2017 Jokic, if at all. Post-08 you've got 2011 where KG plays less than 200 minutes more than 2017 Jokic and 2012 where KG would've played a similar amount of minutes as the year prior if not for the shortened season. I just don't see how 2k minutes and 28mpg (which increased over the season anyway) isn't enough but 2.2k minutes on 31mpg is.

Well, you may not see the difference between 28 mpg and 31 mpg but I do. KG played more minutes than 2017 Jokic in all years from 2010-13 period. Some not by a lot and not all of them I'd consider all-nba years, but it matters.

To me, KG has all-nba seasons in 1999-08 period plus 2011 and 2012, that gives us exactly 12 all-nba seasons. I overestimated, as 2009 KG didn't play enough but at the same time some may view 1998 KG as all-nba player already (I don't).

For what it's worth 2017 Jokic got just about the same amount of All-NBA traction that KG got in 2011 and 2012.

Maybe, but I don't see 2017 Jokic to be even close to 2012 Garnett. Feel free to disagree, but that's my opinion.

Once again I agree with your premise that Jokic isn't there yet but 4 vs 12+ seasons of All-NBA play just doesn't rhyme with me.

So 5 vs 10-12 would be more fair to you? Again, Jokic was already a great talent in 2017 and probably already all-star level, but it's reaching to call him legit all-nba level. That gives us 5 all-nba level seasons and 2018-19 are not all-time level exactly.

We may disagree about 2017 Jokic evaluation and I may buy 2018, but it still gives KG a massive advantage. That's my point.

[70sFan]

Kobe and KG should not go together with "at least 12 All-NBA level seasons" as Kobe actually had 15 (11x 1st team) and KG had 9 (4x 1st team).

That's why I said "all-nba level seasons" not "all-nba selections". Kobe was all-nba level player in 2000-04, 2006-13 (13 seasons), KG was all-nba level player in 12 seasons (1999-08, 2011-12).

KG's case in top 10 is mostly based on advanced stats...

If KG has "at least" 12, Jokic should have 7 All-NBA level seasons.

Not really, you have been on this board long enough to know that.

[70sFan]

I get that some people are higher on peaks than longevity, bur Jokic has total of 4 seasons at all-nba level, while Kobe and Garnett have like 12 at least...

Jokic's last 3 seasons, including playoffs, has averaged 26.4/12.0/8.3 on +8.6 rTS%. That's across 198 games! And, he's put up that volume while playing only 33.9 MPG.

How many players have put up that line for even a single season with that efficiency?

Scoring efficiency on higher volume? Quite a lot seasons actually. Not all of them are better of course, but it's not true that Jokic is some kind of gigantic outlier in terms of raw boxscore numbers.

[SpreeS]

LJB
Duncan
Curry
O'Neal
Kobe
Garnett
Dirk
Durant
Wade
Paul

[OhayoKD]

Between the Harden > Kobe guy and the Jokic > KG guy, that's certainly a way to start a thread.

1. LeBron James
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Shaquille O’Neal
7. Stephen Curry
8. Chris Paul
9. Kevin Durant
10. Steve Nash

kobe over shaq?

Is this a longevity thing, off-court thing, something else?