Players you’ve “soured on”

[Doctor MJ]

The greatest PG of all time takes more 3s off the dribble than anybody. Nothing wrong with playing that way if you can pull it off

Presuming you're talking about Curry, I'd object to calling him a "point guard" when he plays like this. If "point guard" simply means the smallest guy in your lineup, then it doesn't mean anything at all.

None of this to say that Curry wasn't a superstar-level point guard when he played like a point guard, but what he right now is something I would call a "rover", and while basketball folks don't think about "rover" as a position, they should and every coach should be asking himself "Why don't I have at least one rover out there?" from here on out.

If you mean off ball offensive movement type Curry still does too much on ball I think for it to be invalid to call him a PG I think.

I think a more buddy hield/klay type when I think of movement shooters

Fair enough. I'll acknowledge that he doesn't play only one way, and that he has more time playing on-ball than a pure rover would, but I think the APG comparison with Draymond is telling. While Curry still averaged more than double the APG of Green in Kerr's first year, we're now firmly into the era where Draymond is the guy racking up more assists (at least per minute) than Curry.

In general I think this is a good line of demarcation: If you're not your team's leading assister when you play, then you probably shouldn't be thought of primarily with the "point guard" label. It's one thing if you're super-on-ball and just really, really, really bad at passing - then you're effectively playing point guard...while being bad at playmaking for others, but if someone else is getting more assists than you because that's the scheme, then I wouldn't call your role "point guard".

Maybe you can think of example situations where this demarcation doesn't seem right, but calling Draymond the "point" of the Warrior system sure seems right to me. Similarly for a Jokic situation - I don't think it's really meaningful to say that Jokic plays with "point guards" even if he plays with guys capable of playing point guard.

Last note, as far as I know, the traditional way to refer to guards who are don't fit as "point guards" or the close cousin "lead guard" is "off guard". I tend to think of Derek Fisher in this capacity next to Kobe. I think "off guard" is still a good label to use for guys like Klay and Buddy, but it doesn't really capture someone like Steph to me because it implies that the player in question is not the primary focus of the defense.

Hence while you could Klay, Buddy & Steph in the "rover" category, it's only really Steph that seems to require this new category.

[parsnips33]

The greatest PG of all time takes more 3s off the dribble than anybody. Nothing wrong with playing that way if you can pull it off

Presuming you're talking about Curry, I'd object to calling him a "point guard" when he plays like this. If "point guard" simply means the smallest guy in your lineup, then it doesn't mean anything at all.

None of this to say that Curry wasn't a superstar-level point guard when he played like a point guard, but what he right now is something I would call a "rover", and while basketball folks don't think about "rover" as a position, they should and every coach should be asking himself "Why don't I have at least one rover out there?" from here on out.

If you mean off ball offensive movement type Curry still does too much on ball I think for it to be invalid to call him a PG I think.

I think a more buddy hield/klay type when I think of movement shooters

I think that gets into part of what makes Steph so dangerous, the way he can switch between the two roles even within a single possession. He can start off with a high PNR or handoff, kick it out to the perimeter, and then sprint straight into a hard cut to the corner. Within a split second, the defender has to basically switch between two distinct types of defense

[yoyoboy]

I think probably CP3 to some extent. I’ve always felt throughout his career people have been unfair to him at times, and combined with how much of an analytics god he’s always been, it’s made me hold him in super high regard and want to defend him at every turn. And in the process probably too easily disregard his shortcomings.

I don’t know if he’s as good of a leader as I originally thought though. I think he probably does deserve a decent chunk of responsibility for the seemingly routine playoff collapses his teams always find themselves in. I think even though he establishes a high baseline of success for his teams, his personality can rub people the wrong way and he doesn’t help establish a team culture where the players really want to fight for each other or even like each other. And so when adversity hits, they just sort of lie flat.

[parsnips33]

Damn y’all really hate klay lol

It's been crazy to watch lol. Injury in 2019 totally killed his rep, especially since Warriors would have had a good shot at the 3peat if he doesn't go down, even with KD out

I do think klay gets overhyped by the media at the time or by some fans, some la fans were tryna say klay over AD during the trade time

But like, klays shooting on the move or coming off screens and hits 42.3% for his prime and takes some crazy shots, bro was astonishing. Also on klay is different.

I don’t think he’s top 75 but he was averaging an effecient 28 without Curry or KD throughout his prime right?

Not to mention defensively he could guard 1-4. Prime Klay was a serious weapon

[LesGrossman]

Paul George. Overrated, cant win. Booker, annoying and over the top ego. Kawhi is a corpse sadly, used to be my fav player.

[Gooner]

Damian Lillard. He gets this credit as a "number 1" guy on a team, but his team hasn't done anything important in the west, apart from that one season when they got to the conference finals barely and then got swept. Let's not pretend like he hasn't played with a lot of talented players there. He takes too many 3's off the dribble which is not how a point guard should play.

A lot of flaws with what you are saying here.

1. Why do you say that PGs should not take off the dribble threes? Over the past 4 years, Dame is shooting 37.1% on all threes that were taken after 1 or more dribbles. That is a 111 offensive rating off these actions alone. It also requires the defenders to defend you in a different way that opens up more opportunities in the lane or for teammates. Generally saying point guards should not take off the dribble threes is wrong.

2. Team success =/= Player impact. You can deduce some level of impact from a player based on their team, but you can do it for when they are gone as well. The Trailblazers were god awful without Lillard last year. They have gone from -8.55 SRS to -0.32 SRS in a year. There is definitely a lot of noise there (not saying Dame is worth 8 points per 100 bc that would make him the GOAT) due to roster changeup, but the impact is clear.

I didn't say he shouldn't take those 3's, but he takes too many. A point guard should penetrate more and dish the ball to his teammates.

Last year Portland also didn't have McCollum in most of those games, so you have to take that into consideration. That team has been average with Dame leading them. They've changed their roster a bit this season, but they are not any better. He is a common denominator.

[Warriors Analyst]

Draymond is a triple single player. He has high value only when he plays with superior talent like Steph and Klay.

The fact that you can't go beyond raw boxscore numbers doesn't mean you are right.

Well, if a player averages 7 points per game, it surely means that ther need to be other talented players on that roster to make that team succesful. Box score numbers can tell you that much. I can also see with my eyes that Draymond can't score. That's not to say that Draymond isn't valuable, but what he does is a definiton of a role player. When he was playing alone without Steph or Klay, we all know how it looked.

Yes, when the Warriors' 2019-20 roster was devastated by injuries to Curry, Klay, and Looney, and otherwise consisted of four players who still have NBA jobs -- D'Angelo Russell, a rookie-year Jordan Poole, Damion Lee, and Alec Burks -- we really saw who Draymond was. Spot on.

[clearlynotjesse]

3 and D guys in general. Unless you have a Luka/LeBron level manipulator doing all the work, you just gotta have something in the bag to punish teams for playing weak defenders

[trex_8063]

Up through the beginning of 2021-
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EIZvj_3-9SZULWomHz54V1CPL092j70u_0vUhoEEaIk/edit#gid=90945325

Playoff PIPM up to 2018-
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13pGq-utIRXi7trNXPjVas6qw7wFnTDHfJX-fVvbHv8Y/edit#gid=90945325

These look like the ones I'd used previously. But like the old one, it no longer lets me select the player [the cell is uneditable].
Do I need to request access to edit from the owner? Or is there another trick I'm missing?

[OhayoKD]

Paul George. Overrated, cant win. Booker, annoying and over the top ego. Kawhi is a corpse sadly, used to be my fav player.

PG got pretty close with a max-salary on the bench like 2 years ago

[LukaTheGOAT]

Up through the beginning of 2021-
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EIZvj_3-9SZULWomHz54V1CPL092j70u_0vUhoEEaIk/edit#gid=90945325

Playoff PIPM up to 2018-
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13pGq-utIRXi7trNXPjVas6qw7wFnTDHfJX-fVvbHv8Y/edit#gid=90945325

These look like the ones I'd used previously. But like the old one, it no longer lets me select the player [the cell is uneditable].
Do I need to request access to edit from the owner? Or is there another trick I'm missing?

I think if you select to make a copy of the spreadsheet, you might have that capacity.

[The High Cyde]

Karl Malone, as soon as I heard what he’d done. I don’t even bother to try to rank the dude.

[MiamiBulls]

Allen Iverson, just digging into some of his data there was so many limiting factors to his game that determines that 2001 Playoff Run was more of a fluke in terms of team outcome. He was more of just a Great/Very Good Regular Season Floor Raiser.

Isiah Thomas, he was the best player on an overwhelmingly defensive slanted roster, where their Defense was the primary catalyst for the Pistons overall, but received credit like he was an MVP caliber player. Also Zeke was more inefficient(-2.1% rTS) in his Regular Season career than Allen Iverson was (-0.9% rTS), and his Career Defense Adjusted True Shooting in the Playoffs is -0.2% rTS.

[Tim Lehrbach]

Kevin Garnett. I found it impossible to continue to rank him as a top player the more his poor sportsmanship revealed him to be a merely excellent player who could have comported himself far better.

[Lost92Bricks]

I think probably CP3 to some extent. I’ve always felt throughout his career people have been unfair to him at times, and combined with how much of an analytics god he’s always been, it’s made me hold him in super high regard and want to defend him at every turn. And in the process probably too easily disregard his shortcomings.

I don’t know if he’s as good of a leader as I originally thought though. I think he probably does deserve a decent chunk of responsibility for the seemingly routine playoff collapses his teams always find themselves in. I think even though he establishes a high baseline of success for his teams, his personality can rub people the wrong way and he doesn’t help establish a team culture where the players really want to fight for each other or even like each other. And so when adversity hits, they just sort of lie flat.

The teams collapse because they're completely reliant on an injury prone and small player.