Clyde closer to Kobe or Kobe closer to MJ

[70sFan]

I don’t think you’re low on Kobe in the context of this board, thats an average ranking for him here even if I’m a good deal higher

Yeah, nothing wrong with having Kobe inside top 10 if you value things Kobe did highly (on-ball creation, scoring versatility, longevity). I think putting him inside top 5 is too far, but I am willing to listen the case.

In fact, given that I value defensive stars way higher than average fan, it should be a sign for everyone how high I am on Kobe's offense. Otherwise, I wouldn't put him above someone like David Robinson or just next to Kevin Garnett.

I mean my criteria is pretty different from guys on here, KG in terms of career value or CORP or wtv would probably be easily in the top 10 and pushing decently high there but I probably have him at 15-20 ish

My criteria flips between accomplishments + how good they are in an absolute sense or adding in how good they are relatively speaking depending on who it is, although I flip flop on that a lot, so Kobe ends up crazy high for me

^^^ edit; my bad I thought I said I had Kobe top 5, although I don’t know if I even do lol

I also consider the ability in absolute sense strongly, it's just that we disagree heavily on our conclusions

[OhayoKD]

I always find it strange that people think I am low on Kobe because he's not in my top 10. Do you realize how ridiculous top 10 competition is?

In terms of peaks, I have Kobe as a clear top 7 guard peak. He's definitely below Jordan, I would put him below Magic, West and Curry to me and he's fighting with Oscar and Wade. How does it put him overall? Around top 20 peak?

I don’t think you’re low on Kobe in the context of this board, thats an average ranking for him here even if I’m a good deal higher

Yeah, nothing wrong with having Kobe inside top 10 if you value things Kobe did highly (on-ball creation, scoring versatility, longevity). I think putting him inside top 5 is too far, but I am willing to listen the case.

In fact, given that I value defensive stars way higher than average fan, it should be a sign for everyone how high I am on Kobe's offense. Otherwise, I wouldn't put him above someone like David Robinson or just next to Kevin Garnett.

i think the top 5 kobe case would be that the cieling for iso impact was lower in the 2000's and that he has the skillset to be a tier 1 offensive guy in other eras. I think its notable that via something like synergy kobe is in the 80th or 90th percentile of everything(timo provided the source somewhere) offensively fwiw. Unsure if era-context is enough to bridge the gap, but I'm not going to dismiss it outright.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Yeah, nothing wrong with having Kobe inside top 10 if you value things Kobe did highly (on-ball creation, scoring versatility, longevity). I think putting him inside top 5 is too far, but I am willing to listen the case.

In fact, given that I value defensive stars way higher than average fan, it should be a sign for everyone how high I am on Kobe's offense. Otherwise, I wouldn't put him above someone like David Robinson or just next to Kevin Garnett.

I mean my criteria is pretty different from guys on here, KG in terms of career value or CORP or wtv would probably be easily in the top 10 and pushing decently high there but I probably have him at 15-20 ish

My criteria flips between accomplishments + how good they are in an absolute sense or adding in how good they are relatively speaking depending on who it is, although I flip flop on that a lot, so Kobe ends up crazy high for me

^^^ edit; my bad I thought I said I had Kobe top 5, although I don’t know if I even do lol

I also consider the ability in absolute sense strongly, it's just that we disagree heavily on our conclusions

Yeah lmao pretty much

[picko]

Starting this post over again because I lost it....

Looking at these guys in the PS, I chose their best 8-year peak stretches (not best 8 seasons, but it shouldn't make too big of a difference with these guys).

88-96 MJ in the PS

Backpicks BPM-8.9 (+2.8 Advantage over Kobe)
BPM-11.7 (+5.7 Advantage over Kobe)
PER-29 (+5.7 Advantage over Kobe)
WS/48-.263 (+0.087 Advantage over Kobe)

01-09 Kobe in the PS

Backpicks BPM-6.1 (+0.2 Advantage over Drexler)
BPM-6 (-0.7 DEFICIT to Drexler)
PER-23.3 (+2.4 Advantage over Drexler)
WS/48-.176 (+0.021 Advantage over Drexler)

88-95 Clyde Drexler in the PS

Backpicks BPM-5.9
BPM-6.7
PER-20.9
WS/48-0.155


MJ on average had a +3.57175 lead over Kobe in each of the metrics.
Kobe on average had a +0.48025 lead over Drexler in each of the metrics.

The 3 are lauded for having similar styles. Per the box-score, it does seem as if MJ creates more separation from Kobe, then Kobe does from Drexler. MJ led Kobe in all these metrics and had a bigger difference between him and Kobe, then Kobe and Drexler had for each stat. On the other hand, we see that Kobe does not unanimously come out ahead by every chosen metric.

Yep, once you start crunching the advanced numbers it is awfully difficult to argue that Kobe is closer to Jordan than Drexler was to Kobe. Drexler was a lot better than I think a lot of people realise and Kobe not as close to Jordan as some people thought.

[Heej]

The box score numbers are damning but those aren't the best metrics. Not a numbers guy so idk where to find it but maybe the non box score plus minus families a good place to start

[Texas Chuck]

I'm a believe the difference between the GOAT candidates and the guys several tiers down is much bigger than the gap between a low end 1st-team all NBA guy and a 2nd team all-NBA guy.

Now for those who feel like Kobe was a regular MVP level player, your results may vary, but I never thought Kobe was the best player in the league and only a couple seasons where I thought he was even seriously in the discussion for that.

So for me the gap is much bigger between Mike and Kobe than Kobe and Clyde. Both gaps are sizable though.

[Matt15]

All-time I have Kobe in my top ten(usually at #10) and Drexler around 40-45 or so. Peak-wise I have Kobe in my top 15-20 whereas Drexler maybe around 45-50 so overall Kobe is definitely closer to Jordan.

[SNPA]

I think Kobe is closer to Jordan than Drexler. Currently, I have Kobe in 11-15 range, while Drexler is maybe in the late 30s? Maybe early 40s?

Jordan is 4th all-time on my list, but even if you have Jordan as the GOAT, the gap is smaller in my opinion.

This reads a bit like you are using a linear ranking.

[SNPA]

All-time I have Kobe in my top ten(usually at #10) and Drexler around 40-45 or so. Peak-wise I have Kobe in my top 15-20 whereas Drexler maybe around 45-50 so overall Kobe is definitely closer to Jordan.

This reads linear too.

The gap from 1-15 could be twice the gap from 16-40. Just looking at where you have a guy ranked and counting slots to determine which pair is closer is off IMO.

[Colbinii]

All-time I have Kobe in my top ten(usually at #10) and Drexler around 40-45 or so. Peak-wise I have Kobe in my top 15-20 whereas Drexler maybe around 45-50 so overall Kobe is definitely closer to Jordan.

This reads linear too.

The gap from 1-15 could be twice the gap from 16-40. Just looking at where you have a guy ranked and counting slots to determine which pair is closer is off IMO.

Exactly. Although the opposite could be true--1-15 could be signifciantly less than 16-40.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I think Clyde was closer to Kobe than Kobe was to Jordan. Clyde was a very good player and Kobe was not as close to Jordan as Kobe fans think he was.

[70sFan]

I think Kobe is closer to Jordan than Drexler. Currently, I have Kobe in 11-15 range, while Drexler is maybe in the late 30s? Maybe early 40s?

Jordan is 4th all-time on my list, but even if you have Jordan as the GOAT, the gap is smaller in my opinion.

This reads a bit like you are using a linear ranking.

Yeah, it could be understood that way. It wasn't my intention, I agree that such ranking not only could but probably should not be linear.

[OhayoKD]

The box score numbers are damning but those aren't the best metrics. Not a numbers guy so idk where to find it but maybe the non box score plus minus families a good place to start

The problem is most of the non-box metrics you're thinking off work by introducing an artificial scale which curves down top end results. TLDR: RAPM or an RAPM derivative will put all the players closer together than they actually are and that will disproportionately affect the most valuable player outcomes. (Though Jordan seems to stay right under the treshold of value where mis-distribution occurs, so maybe this isn't that problematic)

In general though, to see the size of the gaps between the top and the non-top, you'd need to be looking at raw impact/wowy if you want a non-skewed alternate to the box-stuff. In this case since all the players in question here are offense-heavy guards, its possible, the biases box-stuff has towards them would cancel out evenly. And there is an advantage to the boxscore, even if it's not as accurate or inclusive, in that you have that data present for every spot in their career.

Is there a reason to think the box-score would skew to jordan in a way it wouldn't for kobe or clyde. I suppose it might overstate the defensive margins between guards when there's a block/steal disparity