The Decision on Fultz?

[Knightro]

I just want to be 100% clear on a few things.

-I like Markelle Fultz. I am rooting for him as hard as anyone around here. I want nothing more for him to succeed at the highest level and make the Magic a big success.

-Fultz is definitely going to continue to start at point guard the rest of this season barring the Magic making an unexpected buying trade like VanVleet or something. But I don't expect the Magic to be significant buyers.

-Fultz at this moment is the Magic's best option to start at point guard. I do think case could be made for Suggs from a long-term perspective, but I'd imagine he'd have enough growing pains to make Fultz the better short-term option.

I just don't like his game and how it fits into the modern NBA landscape. That's all. I don't feel good about a lead ball handler who doesn't take threes or draw fouls.

[thelead]

As a Fultz fan, he needs to go to the bench and the starting role needs to go to Suggs. Yes, that will likely lose us more games but we need to see what we have with Suggs. I'm all for keeping Fultz and getting his contract in-line with typical backup pg salaries after next season.

[eyriq]

As a Fultz fan, he needs to go to the bench and the starting role needs to go to Suggs. Yes, that will likely lose us more games but we need to see what we have with Suggs. I'm all for keeping Fultz and getting his contract in-line with typical backup pg salaries after next season.

I'd agree but for the implications in chemistry and culture. I think that would be a toxic decision. I prefer Suggs to Fultz. He needs to earn it though

[Bigmagicfan82]

As a Fultz fan, he needs to go to the bench and the starting role needs to go to Suggs. Yes, that will likely lose us more games but we need to see what we have with Suggs. I'm all for keeping Fultz and getting his contract in-line with typical backup pg salaries after next season.

Why? We don't need to start Suggs to see what we have. We see what we have and right now it doesn't look good. I know some fans what to hide him behind the word "potential" but that IMO is just the suck-cost fallacy. The fact is he is not a good shooter, he is not a reliable scorer, he plays good defense, is an ok passer, and his handles need a lot of work to be a full time PG. Let's not get blinded by the few good games he has here and there. He is professional and all players have good games here and there. The question is can he be consistent and to that I say no.

Fultz has been a all around a better player than Suggs. He plays just as good of defense as Suggs and is a more reliable shooter, even from 3pt range, than Sugs. You of all people have complained that we need a PG in the offense that can score. Now you are saying that we should bench the guy shooting 50% for the field and 32% from 3pt range for the guy that for the last two seasons shot 41% of lower from the field and 26% of lower from 3pt range. Those are Elfrid Payton numbers. There is not a single area that Suggs is better than Fultz in. Cole Anthony is statically playing better than Suggs off the bench. It has nothing to do with starting vs bench and it has everything to do with the fact that Suggs is just not that good. Now we are seeing why Toronto passed on him at #4.

[thelead]

As a Fultz fan, he needs to go to the bench and the starting role needs to go to Suggs. Yes, that will likely lose us more games but we need to see what we have with Suggs. I'm all for keeping Fultz and getting his contract in-line with typical backup pg salaries after next season.

Why? We don't need to start Suggs to see what we have. We see what we have and right now it doesn't look good. I know some fans what to hide him behind the word "potential" but that IMO is just the suck-cost fallacy. The fact is he is not a good shooter, he is not a reliable scorer, he plays good defense, is an ok passer, and his handles need a lot of work to be a full time PG. Let's not get blinded by the few good games he has here and there. He is professional and all players have good games here and there. The question is can he be consistent and to that I say no.

Fultz has been a all around a better player than Suggs. He plays just as good of defense as Suggs and is a more reliable shooter, even from 3pt range, than Sugs. You of all people have complained that we need a PG in the offense that can score. Now you are saying that we should bench the guy shooting 50% for the field and 32% from 3pt range for the guy that for the last two seasons shot 41% of lower from the field and 26% of lower from 3pt range. Those are Elfrid Payton numbers. There is not a single area that Suggs is better than Fultz in. Cole Anthony is statically playing better than Suggs off the bench. It has nothing to do with starting vs bench and it has everything to do with the fact that Suggs is just not that good. Now we are seeing why Toronto passed on him at #4.

He's coming off the bench and not even running point. It's such a waste of time. We're not winning anything this year... imagine giving up on a 5th pick 68 games into his career.

[eyriq]

As a Fultz fan, he needs to go to the bench and the starting role needs to go to Suggs. Yes, that will likely lose us more games but we need to see what we have with Suggs. I'm all for keeping Fultz and getting his contract in-line with typical backup pg salaries after next season.

Why? We don't need to start Suggs to see what we have. We see what we have and right now it doesn't look good. I know some fans what to hide him behind the word "potential" but that IMO is just the suck-cost fallacy. The fact is he is not a good shooter, he is not a reliable scorer, he plays good defense, is an ok passer, and his handles need a lot of work to be a full time PG. Let's not get blinded by the few good games he has here and there. He is professional and all players have good games here and there. The question is can he be consistent and to that I say no.

Fultz has been a all around a better player than Suggs. He plays just as good of defense as Suggs and is a more reliable shooter, even from 3pt range, than Sugs. You of all people have complained that we need a PG in the offense that can score. Now you are saying that we should bench the guy shooting 50% for the field and 32% from 3pt range for the guy that for the last two seasons shot 41% of lower from the field and 26% of lower from 3pt range. Those are Elfrid Payton numbers. There is not a single area that Suggs is better than Fultz in. Cole Anthony is statically playing better than Suggs off the bench. It has nothing to do with starting vs bench and it has everything to do with the fact that Suggs is just not that good. Now we are seeing why Toronto passed on him at #4.

He's coming off the bench and not even running point. It's such a waste of time. We're not winning anything this year... imagine giving up on a 5th pick 68 games into his career.

It has to be injury related

[Knightro]

It has to be injury related

I'm just not convinced that's it.

I think Mosley just feels like Fultz and Anthony are both better than Suggs right now, and that Suggs at least has some ability to play SG which the other two pretty much do not.

[Bigmagicfan82]

As a Fultz fan, he needs to go to the bench and the starting role needs to go to Suggs. Yes, that will likely lose us more games but we need to see what we have with Suggs. I'm all for keeping Fultz and getting his contract in-line with typical backup pg salaries after next season.

Why? We don't need to start Suggs to see what we have. We see what we have and right now it doesn't look good. I know some fans what to hide him behind the word "potential" but that IMO is just the suck-cost fallacy. The fact is he is not a good shooter, he is not a reliable scorer, he plays good defense, is an ok passer, and his handles need a lot of work to be a full time PG. Let's not get blinded by the few good games he has here and there. He is professional and all players have good games here and there. The question is can he be consistent and to that I say no.

Fultz has been a all around a better player than Suggs. He plays just as good of defense as Suggs and is a more reliable shooter, even from 3pt range, than Sugs. You of all people have complained that we need a PG in the offense that can score. Now you are saying that we should bench the guy shooting 50% for the field and 32% from 3pt range for the guy that for the last two seasons shot 41% of lower from the field and 26% of lower from 3pt range. Those are Elfrid Payton numbers. There is not a single area that Suggs is better than Fultz in. Cole Anthony is statically playing better than Suggs off the bench. It has nothing to do with starting vs bench and it has everything to do with the fact that Suggs is just not that good. Now we are seeing why Toronto passed on him at #4.

He's coming off the bench and not even running point. It's such a waste of time. We're not winning anything this year... imagine giving up on a 5th pick 68 games into his career.

When are we going to stop making excuses for him? He can't shoot. You are proving my point about sunk-cost fallacy. The fact was the 5th pick is irrelevant. What matters is his play on the court and that has been terrible. You can't blame it all on injury. He is not that good. The fact is that he looks worse this year than he did last year. If he runs the offense of not has nothing to do with if him shooting 26% from 3pt range and 41% from the field. Those are all just excuses to avoid admitting to the truth, that is not that good and probably should not have been taken at 5. At this rate he shouldn't have been taken at 20.

This is nothing new. The story was that he had a bad pre-draft workout with Toronto and they passed on him, even though they needed a pg.

"Basically, the man couldn’t shoot. He had the worst shooting drill out of all 1-on-0 workouts (they worked out about 10, including Bouknight who said he didn’t work out with us for some reason?? Bouknight had the best shooting drill of all by far).

Just was totally flat. It was so bad and he was so worked up about it that they called the workout short and told him to come back the next day, even though they already had another guy coming in the next day (Jalen Johnson).

That basically never happens. Didn’t do great on the second chance either.

Scottie killed it. Beginning to end. Great workout, charmed them with his personality, shot the leather off the ball. They just loved him.

I didn’t want to say anything about the bad workout bc I didn’t want that to get out, in case the FO was trying to trade the pick."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/nba-rumors-jalen-suggs-had-horrible-pre-draft-workout-with-raptors

Sound familiar?

This is who he is. Trust me I was on board with Suggs. I wanted he to be in the starting lineup but I am also a realist. The data points say this is who he really is. Can he prove me wrong? Absolutely, but I doubt it. As of now he doesn't belong in the starting line-up. If doesn't improve soon he may not have a place on this team.

[eyriq]

It has to be injury related

I'm just not convinced that's it.

I think Mosley just feels like Fultz and Anthony are both better than Suggs right now, and that Suggs at least has some ability to play SG which the other two pretty much do not.

I don't hate the SG try, in fact seeing a Fultz|Suggs backcourt is pretty much my number one wish for the season, right there with more Franz/Paolo two man game or a trade for Simmons.

[VFX]

It has to be injury related

I'm just not convinced that's it.

I think Mosley just feels like Fultz and Anthony are both better than Suggs right now, and that Suggs at least has some ability to play SG which the other two pretty much do not.

I don't hate the SG try, in fact seeing a Fultz|Suggs backcourt is pretty much my number one wish for the season, right there with more Franz/Paolo two man game or a trade for Simmons.

Why? You wish to have the worst shooting back court in the league?

[thelead]

Why? We don't need to start Suggs to see what we have. We see what we have and right now it doesn't look good. I know some fans what to hide him behind the word "potential" but that IMO is just the suck-cost fallacy. The fact is he is not a good shooter, he is not a reliable scorer, he plays good defense, is an ok passer, and his handles need a lot of work to be a full time PG. Let's not get blinded by the few good games he has here and there. He is professional and all players have good games here and there. The question is can he be consistent and to that I say no.

Fultz has been a all around a better player than Suggs. He plays just as good of defense as Suggs and is a more reliable shooter, even from 3pt range, than Sugs. You of all people have complained that we need a PG in the offense that can score. Now you are saying that we should bench the guy shooting 50% for the field and 32% from 3pt range for the guy that for the last two seasons shot 41% of lower from the field and 26% of lower from 3pt range. Those are Elfrid Payton numbers. There is not a single area that Suggs is better than Fultz in. Cole Anthony is statically playing better than Suggs off the bench. It has nothing to do with starting vs bench and it has everything to do with the fact that Suggs is just not that good. Now we are seeing why Toronto passed on him at #4.

He's coming off the bench and not even running point. It's such a waste of time. We're not winning anything this year... imagine giving up on a 5th pick 68 games into his career.

When are we going to stop making excuses for him? He can't shoot. You are proving my point about sunk-cost fallacy. The fact was the 5th pick is irrelevant. What matters is his play on the court and that has been terrible. You can't blame it all on injury. He is not that good. The fact is that he looks worse this year than he did last year. If he runs the offense of not has nothing to do with if him shooting 26% from 3pt range and 41% from the field. Those are all just excuses to avoid admitting to the truth, that is not that good and probably should not have been taken at 5. At this rate he shouldn't have been taken at 20.

This is nothing new. The story was that he had a bad pre-draft workout with Toronto and they passed on him, even though they needed a pg.

"Basically, the man couldn’t shoot. He had the worst shooting drill out of all 1-on-0 workouts (they worked out about 10, including Bouknight who said he didn’t work out with us for some reason?? Bouknight had the best shooting drill of all by far).

Just was totally flat. It was so bad and he was so worked up about it that they called the workout short and told him to come back the next day, even though they already had another guy coming in the next day (Jalen Johnson).

That basically never happens. Didn’t do great on the second chance either.

Scottie killed it. Beginning to end. Great workout, charmed them with his personality, shot the leather off the ball. They just loved him.

I didn’t want to say anything about the bad workout bc I didn’t want that to get out, in case the FO was trying to trade the pick."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/nba-rumors-jalen-suggs-had-horrible-pre-draft-workout-with-raptors

Sound familiar?

This is who he is. Trust me I was on board with Suggs. I wanted he to be in the starting lineup but I am also a realist. The data points say this is who he really is. Can he prove me wrong? Absolutely, but I doubt it. As of now he doesn't belong in the starting line-up. If doesn't improve soon he may not have a place on this team.

I'm not making excuses for him. I would like to give him these last ~40 games 'to put up or shut' so to speak. I mostly agree with what you're saying and I doubt he will prove people wrong but it's the right time to give him ZERO excuses for his play. Let's not try to develop him next year alongside another guard lotto pick. Put him in the quarterback/PG position he wants for the remainder of the season, play him with the starters and let's see if he can prove us wrong. If he can't, we lose a bit more than with Fultz but that just gives us more lotto balls. If he miraculously turns it around, our core is practically set and the summer is about filling out the holes.

[VFX]

Why? We don't need to start Suggs to see what we have. We see what we have and right now it doesn't look good. I know some fans what to hide him behind the word "potential" but that IMO is just the suck-cost fallacy. The fact is he is not a good shooter, he is not a reliable scorer, he plays good defense, is an ok passer, and his handles need a lot of work to be a full time PG. Let's not get blinded by the few good games he has here and there. He is professional and all players have good games here and there. The question is can he be consistent and to that I say no.

Fultz has been a all around a better player than Suggs. He plays just as good of defense as Suggs and is a more reliable shooter, even from 3pt range, than Sugs. You of all people have complained that we need a PG in the offense that can score. Now you are saying that we should bench the guy shooting 50% for the field and 32% from 3pt range for the guy that for the last two seasons shot 41% of lower from the field and 26% of lower from 3pt range. Those are Elfrid Payton numbers. There is not a single area that Suggs is better than Fultz in. Cole Anthony is statically playing better than Suggs off the bench. It has nothing to do with starting vs bench and it has everything to do with the fact that Suggs is just not that good. Now we are seeing why Toronto passed on him at #4.

He's coming off the bench and not even running point. It's such a waste of time. We're not winning anything this year... imagine giving up on a 5th pick 68 games into his career.

When are we going to stop making excuses for him? He can't shoot. You are proving my point about sunk-cost fallacy. The fact was the 5th pick is irrelevant. What matters is his play on the court and that has been terrible. You can't blame it all on injury. He is not that good. The fact is that he looks worse this year than he did last year. If he runs the offense of not has nothing to do with if him shooting 26% from 3pt range and 41% from the field. Those are all just excuses to avoid admitting to the truth, that is not that good and probably should not have been taken at 5. At this rate he shouldn't have been taken at 20.

This is nothing new. The story was that he had a bad pre-draft workout with Toronto and they passed on him, even though they needed a pg.

"Basically, the man couldn’t shoot. He had the worst shooting drill out of all 1-on-0 workouts (they worked out about 10, including Bouknight who said he didn’t work out with us for some reason?? Bouknight had the best shooting drill of all by far).

Just was totally flat. It was so bad and he was so worked up about it that they called the workout short and told him to come back the next day, even though they already had another guy coming in the next day (Jalen Johnson).

That basically never happens. Didn’t do great on the second chance either.

Scottie killed it. Beginning to end. Great workout, charmed them with his personality, shot the leather off the ball. They just loved him.

I didn’t want to say anything about the bad workout bc I didn’t want that to get out, in case the FO was trying to trade the pick."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/nba-rumors-jalen-suggs-had-horrible-pre-draft-workout-with-raptors

Sound familiar?

This is who he is. Trust me I was on board with Suggs. I wanted he to be in the starting lineup but I am also a realist. The data points say this is who he really is. Can he prove me wrong? Absolutely, but I doubt it. As of now he doesn't belong in the starting line-up. If doesn't improve soon he may not have a place on this team.

You say all of this and who are you advocating for? Fultz? He DOESN’T even attempt to shoot. Forget trying.

You’ve made a lot of proclamations after watching 68 games into a second year. I didn’t know draft workouts were the ceiling for 19-20 year old guys that haven’t played a game in the league yet. Suggs isn’t worse than last year. Where are you getting that?

You don’t have the numbers enough to know with Suggs. He had a bad rookie season/ injured for a lot of it. Then he’s getting limited minutes in losses to Fultz and Cole.

If he ends up be terrible after playing adequate minutes in his rookie deal, then he can be moved. That just hasn’t been the case.

And Scottie isn’t as good as Franz, so who cares what the Raps thought. It’s the draft.

[Bigmagicfan82]

He's coming off the bench and not even running point. It's such a waste of time. We're not winning anything this year... imagine giving up on a 5th pick 68 games into his career.

When are we going to stop making excuses for him? He can't shoot. You are proving my point about sunk-cost fallacy. The fact was the 5th pick is irrelevant. What matters is his play on the court and that has been terrible. You can't blame it all on injury. He is not that good. The fact is that he looks worse this year than he did last year. If he runs the offense of not has nothing to do with if him shooting 26% from 3pt range and 41% from the field. Those are all just excuses to avoid admitting to the truth, that is not that good and probably should not have been taken at 5. At this rate he shouldn't have been taken at 20.

This is nothing new. The story was that he had a bad pre-draft workout with Toronto and they passed on him, even though they needed a pg.

"Basically, the man couldn’t shoot. He had the worst shooting drill out of all 1-on-0 workouts (they worked out about 10, including Bouknight who said he didn’t work out with us for some reason?? Bouknight had the best shooting drill of all by far).

Just was totally flat. It was so bad and he was so worked up about it that they called the workout short and told him to come back the next day, even though they already had another guy coming in the next day (Jalen Johnson).

That basically never happens. Didn’t do great on the second chance either.

Scottie killed it. Beginning to end. Great workout, charmed them with his personality, shot the leather off the ball. They just loved him.

I didn’t want to say anything about the bad workout bc I didn’t want that to get out, in case the FO was trying to trade the pick."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/nba-rumors-jalen-suggs-had-horrible-pre-draft-workout-with-raptors

Sound familiar?

This is who he is. Trust me I was on board with Suggs. I wanted he to be in the starting lineup but I am also a realist. The data points say this is who he really is. Can he prove me wrong? Absolutely, but I doubt it. As of now he doesn't belong in the starting line-up. If doesn't improve soon he may not have a place on this team.

I'm not making excuses for him. I would like to give him these last ~40 games 'to put up or shut' so to speak. I mostly agree with what you're saying and I doubt he will prove people wrong but it's the right time to give him ZERO excuses for his play. Let's not try to develop him next year alongside another guard lotto pick. Put him in the quarterback/PG position he wants for the remainder of the season, play him with the starters and let's see if he can prove us wrong. If he can't, we lose a bit more than with Fultz but that just gives us more lotto balls. If he miraculously turns it around, our core is practically set and the summer is about filling out the holes.

I don't understand why he needs to start. It not like he isn't getting min and meaningful min. He started 45 games last year and 13 games this year. He is playing 27 mpg this season and 24 mpg last season. The Magic play a more position-less game. Most possession the PG isn't the one running the offense. It is usually Franz or Paolo. So I don't buy this whole he needs to start at PG argument. He just needed to start and be out there and he was. He was not good and IMO he has shown that he is not the answer at SG or PG. I definitely wouldn't start him over Fultz or Cole for that matter. This team doesn't need to be chasing lottery balls. We are too talented to get a top 4 pick. We should want this team to try and win and make the play-in. Even if they miss the play-in, that will be better for culture in the long run.

[VFX]

:noway:

When are we going to stop making excuses for him? He can't shoot. You are proving my point about sunk-cost fallacy. The fact was the 5th pick is irrelevant. What matters is his play on the court and that has been terrible. You can't blame it all on injury. He is not that good. The fact is that he looks worse this year than he did last year. If he runs the offense of not has nothing to do with if him shooting 26% from 3pt range and 41% from the field. Those are all just excuses to avoid admitting to the truth, that is not that good and probably should not have been taken at 5. At this rate he shouldn't have been taken at 20.

This is nothing new. The story was that he had a bad pre-draft workout with Toronto and they passed on him, even though they needed a pg.

"Basically, the man couldn’t shoot. He had the worst shooting drill out of all 1-on-0 workouts (they worked out about 10, including Bouknight who said he didn’t work out with us for some reason?? Bouknight had the best shooting drill of all by far).

Just was totally flat. It was so bad and he was so worked up about it that they called the workout short and told him to come back the next day, even though they already had another guy coming in the next day (Jalen Johnson).

That basically never happens. Didn’t do great on the second chance either.

Scottie killed it. Beginning to end. Great workout, charmed them with his personality, shot the leather off the ball. They just loved him.

I didn’t want to say anything about the bad workout bc I didn’t want that to get out, in case the FO was trying to trade the pick."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/nba-rumors-jalen-suggs-had-horrible-pre-draft-workout-with-raptors

Sound familiar?

This is who he is. Trust me I was on board with Suggs. I wanted he to be in the starting lineup but I am also a realist. The data points say this is who he really is. Can he prove me wrong? Absolutely, but I doubt it. As of now he doesn't belong in the starting line-up. If doesn't improve soon he may not have a place on this team.

I'm not making excuses for him. I would like to give him these last ~40 games 'to put up or shut' so to speak. I mostly agree with what you're saying and I doubt he will prove people wrong but it's the right time to give him ZERO excuses for his play. Let's not try to develop him next year alongside another guard lotto pick. Put him in the quarterback/PG position he wants for the remainder of the season, play him with the starters and let's see if he can prove us wrong. If he can't, we lose a bit more than with Fultz but that just gives us more lotto balls. If he miraculously turns it around, our core is practically set and the summer is about filling out the holes.

I don't understand why he needs to start. It not like he isn't getting min and meaningful min. He started 45 games last year and 13 games this year. The Magic play a more position-less game. Most possession the PG isn't the one running the offense. It is usually Franz or Paolo. So I don't buy this whole he needs to start at PG argument. He just needed to start and be out there and he was. He was not good and IMO he has shown that he is not the answer at SG or PG. I definitely wouldn't start him over Fultz or Cole for that matter. This team doesn't need to be chasing lottery balls. We are too talented to get a top 4 pick. We should want this team to try and win and make the play-in. Even if they miss the play-in, that will be better for culture in the long run.

Jesus Christ. Please just disregard my previous post. There’s too much here to even reply to. I feel like I’ve stepped into Reddit with some of these takes.

[Bigmagicfan82]

He's coming off the bench and not even running point. It's such a waste of time. We're not winning anything this year... imagine giving up on a 5th pick 68 games into his career.

When are we going to stop making excuses for him? He can't shoot. You are proving my point about sunk-cost fallacy. The fact was the 5th pick is irrelevant. What matters is his play on the court and that has been terrible. You can't blame it all on injury. He is not that good. The fact is that he looks worse this year than he did last year. If he runs the offense of not has nothing to do with if him shooting 26% from 3pt range and 41% from the field. Those are all just excuses to avoid admitting to the truth, that is not that good and probably should not have been taken at 5. At this rate he shouldn't have been taken at 20.

This is nothing new. The story was that he had a bad pre-draft workout with Toronto and they passed on him, even though they needed a pg.

"Basically, the man couldn’t shoot. He had the worst shooting drill out of all 1-on-0 workouts (they worked out about 10, including Bouknight who said he didn’t work out with us for some reason?? Bouknight had the best shooting drill of all by far).

Just was totally flat. It was so bad and he was so worked up about it that they called the workout short and told him to come back the next day, even though they already had another guy coming in the next day (Jalen Johnson).

That basically never happens. Didn’t do great on the second chance either.

Scottie killed it. Beginning to end. Great workout, charmed them with his personality, shot the leather off the ball. They just loved him.

I didn’t want to say anything about the bad workout bc I didn’t want that to get out, in case the FO was trying to trade the pick."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/nba-rumors-jalen-suggs-had-horrible-pre-draft-workout-with-raptors

Sound familiar?

This is who he is. Trust me I was on board with Suggs. I wanted he to be in the starting lineup but I am also a realist. The data points say this is who he really is. Can he prove me wrong? Absolutely, but I doubt it. As of now he doesn't belong in the starting line-up. If doesn't improve soon he may not have a place on this team.

You say all of this and who are you advocating for? Fultz? He DOESN’T even attempt to shoot. Forget trying.

You’ve made a lot of proclamations after watching 68 games into a second year. I didn’t know draft workouts were the ceiling for 19-20 year old guys that haven’t played a game in the league yet. Suggs isn’t worse than last year. Where are you getting that?

You don’t have the numbers enough to know with Suggs. He had a bad rookie season/ injured for a lot of it. Then he’s getting limited minutes in losses to Fultz and Cole.

If he ends up be terrible after playing adequate minutes in his rookie deal, then he can be moved. That just hasn’t been the case.

And Scottie isn’t as good as Franz, so who cares what the Raps thought. It’s the draft.

Yes, I do feel that Fultz should start over Suggs.

You said Fultz doesn't shoot. I assume you mean 3pts but let's assume you meant overall FGA. Well they average about the same Suggs attempts 11 per game and Fultz attempts 10. The difference is Fultz is hitting at a 50% clip while Suggs is 41% .

I never said that a draft workout is the be all end all for a player. That is a strawman argument. What I did say is that it is a data point that supports what we are seeing. That he can't shoot and not as good of a player as people thought.

Yes he had a bad rookie season. He is also having a bad sophomore season. Is he still injured? Is that still the excuse? Why is he getting limited minutes? I would argue that it is not just to Cole and Fultz but also to Garry Harris and Ross. Is it because he play has not been that good?

What does Scottie Barnes have to do with this? Is the fact that Franz is a better player supposed to somehow change the fact that Suggs had a really bad workout with the Raptors and it appears that the issues they saw were spot on?

[fendilim]

Why? We don't need to start Suggs to see what we have. We see what we have and right now it doesn't look good. I know some fans what to hide him behind the word "potential" but that IMO is just the suck-cost fallacy. The fact is he is not a good shooter, he is not a reliable scorer, he plays good defense, is an ok passer, and his handles need a lot of work to be a full time PG. Let's not get blinded by the few good games he has here and there. He is professional and all players have good games here and there. The question is can he be consistent and to that I say no.

Fultz has been a all around a better player than Suggs. He plays just as good of defense as Suggs and is a more reliable shooter, even from 3pt range, than Sugs. You of all people have complained that we need a PG in the offense that can score. Now you are saying that we should bench the guy shooting 50% for the field and 32% from 3pt range for the guy that for the last two seasons shot 41% of lower from the field and 26% of lower from 3pt range. Those are Elfrid Payton numbers. There is not a single area that Suggs is better than Fultz in. Cole Anthony is statically playing better than Suggs off the bench. It has nothing to do with starting vs bench and it has everything to do with the fact that Suggs is just not that good. Now we are seeing why Toronto passed on him at #4.

He's coming off the bench and not even running point. It's such a waste of time. We're not winning anything this year... imagine giving up on a 5th pick 68 games into his career.

When are we going to stop making excuses for him? He can't shoot. You are proving my point about sunk-cost fallacy. The fact was the 5th pick is irrelevant. What matters is his play on the court and that has been terrible. You can't blame it all on injury. He is not that good. The fact is that he looks worse this year than he did last year. If he runs the offense of not has nothing to do with if him shooting 26% from 3pt range and 41% from the field. Those are all just excuses to avoid admitting to the truth, that is not that good and probably should not have been taken at 5. At this rate he shouldn't have been taken at 20.

This is nothing new. The story was that he had a bad pre-draft workout with Toronto and they passed on him, even though they needed a pg.

"Basically, the man couldn’t shoot. He had the worst shooting drill out of all 1-on-0 workouts (they worked out about 10, including Bouknight who said he didn’t work out with us for some reason?? Bouknight had the best shooting drill of all by far).

Just was totally flat. It was so bad and he was so worked up about it that they called the workout short and told him to come back the next day, even though they already had another guy coming in the next day (Jalen Johnson).

That basically never happens. Didn’t do great on the second chance either.

Scottie killed it. Beginning to end. Great workout, charmed them with his personality, shot the leather off the ball. They just loved him.

I didn’t want to say anything about the bad workout bc I didn’t want that to get out, in case the FO was trying to trade the pick."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/nba-rumors-jalen-suggs-had-horrible-pre-draft-workout-with-raptors

Sound familiar?

This is who he is. Trust me I was on board with Suggs. I wanted he to be in the starting lineup but I am also a realist. The data points say this is who he really is. Can he prove me wrong? Absolutely, but I doubt it. As of now he doesn't belong in the starting line-up. If doesn't improve soon he may not have a place on this team.

this may be true but I have doubts.

I mean Scottie Barnes impressed them during the workout and Suggs couldnt shoot? for two days?

They are both terrible shooters.

Also, Suggs has shot a lot better this year off the dribble, actually shooting over 40% on pullups (at least 3+ dribbles) in the same volume as last year.

IMO, between the 3 PGs we have, Suggs may be the most fitting for franz and Paolo. He plays on both ends on the floor, yes similar to Fultz, but Suggs has a higher chance to develop his jumper compared to Fultz.

Starting him and giving him the Marcus Smart role will be best for us moving forward. Offensively and defensively this can help Suggs grow without taking any usage or facilitating role away from Paolo and Franz.

Having Fultz on the court only makes it more difficult for Paolo and Franz. He takes away usage from the two, AND his inability to shoot, moreso his unwillingness to shoot makes the offense more difficult to operate

[Bigmagicfan82]

He's coming off the bench and not even running point. It's such a waste of time. We're not winning anything this year... imagine giving up on a 5th pick 68 games into his career.

When are we going to stop making excuses for him? He can't shoot. You are proving my point about sunk-cost fallacy. The fact was the 5th pick is irrelevant. What matters is his play on the court and that has been terrible. You can't blame it all on injury. He is not that good. The fact is that he looks worse this year than he did last year. If he runs the offense of not has nothing to do with if him shooting 26% from 3pt range and 41% from the field. Those are all just excuses to avoid admitting to the truth, that is not that good and probably should not have been taken at 5. At this rate he shouldn't have been taken at 20.

This is nothing new. The story was that he had a bad pre-draft workout with Toronto and they passed on him, even though they needed a pg.

"Basically, the man couldn’t shoot. He had the worst shooting drill out of all 1-on-0 workouts (they worked out about 10, including Bouknight who said he didn’t work out with us for some reason?? Bouknight had the best shooting drill of all by far).

Just was totally flat. It was so bad and he was so worked up about it that they called the workout short and told him to come back the next day, even though they already had another guy coming in the next day (Jalen Johnson).

That basically never happens. Didn’t do great on the second chance either.

Scottie killed it. Beginning to end. Great workout, charmed them with his personality, shot the leather off the ball. They just loved him.

I didn’t want to say anything about the bad workout bc I didn’t want that to get out, in case the FO was trying to trade the pick."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/nba-rumors-jalen-suggs-had-horrible-pre-draft-workout-with-raptors

Sound familiar?

This is who he is. Trust me I was on board with Suggs. I wanted he to be in the starting lineup but I am also a realist. The data points say this is who he really is. Can he prove me wrong? Absolutely, but I doubt it. As of now he doesn't belong in the starting line-up. If doesn't improve soon he may not have a place on this team.

this may be true but I have doubts.

I mean Scottie Barnes impressed them during the workout and Suggs couldnt shoot? for two days?

They are both terrible shooters.

Also, Suggs has shot a lot better this year off the dribble, actually shooting over 40% on pullups in the same volume as last year.

I am really not trying to make this into a Barnes vs Suggs conversation because that is beyond the point and I really could care less about Barnes. My only point was that Suggs supposedly had a really bad workout and it was reported by multiple outlets. The issues that were seen in that workout we are seeing now. He can't shoot. With respect to Barnes, at least had had a good shooting Rookie year. He has regressed this year and that is something for Toronto to be concerned about. Suggs has had a bad shooting rookie and sophomore year and that is something we need to be concerned with.

[fendilim]

When are we going to stop making excuses for him? He can't shoot. You are proving my point about sunk-cost fallacy. The fact was the 5th pick is irrelevant. What matters is his play on the court and that has been terrible. You can't blame it all on injury. He is not that good. The fact is that he looks worse this year than he did last year. If he runs the offense of not has nothing to do with if him shooting 26% from 3pt range and 41% from the field. Those are all just excuses to avoid admitting to the truth, that is not that good and probably should not have been taken at 5. At this rate he shouldn't have been taken at 20.

This is nothing new. The story was that he had a bad pre-draft workout with Toronto and they passed on him, even though they needed a pg.

"Basically, the man couldn’t shoot. He had the worst shooting drill out of all 1-on-0 workouts (they worked out about 10, including Bouknight who said he didn’t work out with us for some reason?? Bouknight had the best shooting drill of all by far).

Just was totally flat. It was so bad and he was so worked up about it that they called the workout short and told him to come back the next day, even though they already had another guy coming in the next day (Jalen Johnson).

That basically never happens. Didn’t do great on the second chance either.

Scottie killed it. Beginning to end. Great workout, charmed them with his personality, shot the leather off the ball. They just loved him.

I didn’t want to say anything about the bad workout bc I didn’t want that to get out, in case the FO was trying to trade the pick."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/nba-rumors-jalen-suggs-had-horrible-pre-draft-workout-with-raptors

Sound familiar?

This is who he is. Trust me I was on board with Suggs. I wanted he to be in the starting lineup but I am also a realist. The data points say this is who he really is. Can he prove me wrong? Absolutely, but I doubt it. As of now he doesn't belong in the starting line-up. If doesn't improve soon he may not have a place on this team.

this may be true but I have doubts.

I mean Scottie Barnes impressed them during the workout and Suggs couldnt shoot? for two days?

They are both terrible shooters.

Also, Suggs has shot a lot better this year off the dribble, actually shooting over 40% on pullups in the same volume as last year.

I am really not trying to make this into a Barnes vs Suggs conversation because that is beyond the point and I really could care less about Barnes. At least Barnes had a good shooting Rookie year. He has regressed this year and that is something for Toronto to be concerned about. Suggs has had a bad shooting rookie and sophomore year and that is something we need to be concerned with.

Suggs is still a bad shooter but lets not act like he hasnt improved.

Suggs is actually shooting 37.1% on pullup 3s (meaning at least 1 dribble before a shot attempt). LOL (averaging .7/1.8)

While only 19% on catch and shoot 3s. (.5/2.5)

He is also better shooting the 3 with 3+ dribbles where he averages at least 40%. Obviously sample size is low but it seems he needs to dribble the ball first to get his rhythm.

Compared to last year’s 22% on catch and shoot 3s and 19% on pullup 3s. (Almost same number of attempts 2.3 and 1.8 respectively last year)

His mid range pullup has also improved from 27.7% (1.72fgapg) to 51.4% at (1.9fgapg).

His pullup game has improved dramatically, but his catch and shoot has not improved. so it is possible and there is hope that he can also improve his catch and shoot which is what we need from someone to play alongside Franz and P5
Source:
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630591/shots-dash?Season=2022-23

[VFX]

When are we going to stop making excuses for him? He can't shoot. You are proving my point about sunk-cost fallacy. The fact was the 5th pick is irrelevant. What matters is his play on the court and that has been terrible. You can't blame it all on injury. He is not that good. The fact is that he looks worse this year than he did last year. If he runs the offense of not has nothing to do with if him shooting 26% from 3pt range and 41% from the field. Those are all just excuses to avoid admitting to the truth, that is not that good and probably should not have been taken at 5. At this rate he shouldn't have been taken at 20.

This is nothing new. The story was that he had a bad pre-draft workout with Toronto and they passed on him, even though they needed a pg.

"Basically, the man couldn’t shoot. He had the worst shooting drill out of all 1-on-0 workouts (they worked out about 10, including Bouknight who said he didn’t work out with us for some reason?? Bouknight had the best shooting drill of all by far).

Just was totally flat. It was so bad and he was so worked up about it that they called the workout short and told him to come back the next day, even though they already had another guy coming in the next day (Jalen Johnson).

That basically never happens. Didn’t do great on the second chance either.

Scottie killed it. Beginning to end. Great workout, charmed them with his personality, shot the leather off the ball. They just loved him.

I didn’t want to say anything about the bad workout bc I didn’t want that to get out, in case the FO was trying to trade the pick."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/nba-rumors-jalen-suggs-had-horrible-pre-draft-workout-with-raptors

Sound familiar?

This is who he is. Trust me I was on board with Suggs. I wanted he to be in the starting lineup but I am also a realist. The data points say this is who he really is. Can he prove me wrong? Absolutely, but I doubt it. As of now he doesn't belong in the starting line-up. If doesn't improve soon he may not have a place on this team.

You say all of this and who are you advocating for? Fultz? He DOESN’T even attempt to shoot. Forget trying.

You’ve made a lot of proclamations after watching 68 games into a second year. I didn’t know draft workouts were the ceiling for 19-20 year old guys that haven’t played a game in the league yet. Suggs isn’t worse than last year. Where are you getting that?

You don’t have the numbers enough to know with Suggs. He had a bad rookie season/ injured for a lot of it. Then he’s getting limited minutes in losses to Fultz and Cole.

If he ends up be terrible after playing adequate minutes in his rookie deal, then he can be moved. That just hasn’t been the case.

And Scottie isn’t as good as Franz, so who cares what the Raps thought. It’s the draft.

Yes, I do feel that Fultz should start over Suggs.
Why. Show your work.

You said Fultz doesn't shoot. I assume you mean 3pts but let's assume you meant overall FGA. Well they average about the same Suggs attempts 11 per game and Fultz attempts 10. The difference is Fultz is hitting at a 50% clip while Suggs is 41% .

Where are you getting these numbers. Fultz averages 1.3 per game and Suggs 4.2. The rate doesn’t matter if they aren’t taking them. Suggs does. Fultz doesn’t.

I never said that a draft workout is the be all end all for a player. That is a strawman argument. What I did say is that it is a data point that supports what we are seeing. That he can't shoot and not as good of a player as people thought.

You cited the draft as a source for Suggs always being this way. “This is who he is”. You insinuated that he will never be a good shooter. Yeah, all the draft experts and GMs got the Suggs pick wrong. Bigmagicfan82 knew better.

Yes he had a bad rookie season. He is also having a bad sophomore season. Is he still injured? Is that still the excuse? Why is he getting limited minutes? I would argue that it is not just to Cole and Fultz but also to Garry Harris and Ross. Is it because he play has not been that good?

He’s having a much better sophomore season. As you would expect with young players, they get better. He’s been sporadically injured. He’s been getting 10-13 minutes the last 4 games for some reason. Maybe injured. Maybe not.


What does Scottie Barnes have to do with this? Is the fact that Franz is a better player supposed to somehow change the fact that Suggs had a really bad workout with the Raptors and it appears that the issues they saw were spot on?

Not sure why you brought up Bouknight and Barnes. The draft is over and Suggs is on the team. What are we going to do about it now? Neither player in your examples would I want in Orlando.

[Bigmagicfan82]

this may be true but I have doubts.

I mean Scottie Barnes impressed them during the workout and Suggs couldnt shoot? for two days?

They are both terrible shooters.

Also, Suggs has shot a lot better this year off the dribble, actually shooting over 40% on pullups in the same volume as last year.

I am really not trying to make this into a Barnes vs Suggs conversation because that is beyond the point and I really could care less about Barnes. At least Barnes had a good shooting Rookie year. He has regressed this year and that is something for Toronto to be concerned about. Suggs has had a bad shooting rookie and sophomore year and that is something we need to be concerned with.

Suggs is still a bad shooter but lets not act like he hasnt improved.

Suggs is actually shooting 37.1% on pullup 3s (meaning at least 1 dribble before a shot attempt). LOL (averaging .7/1.8)

While only 19% on catch and shoot 3s. (.5/2.5)

He is also better shooting the 3 with 3+ dribbles where he averages at least 40%. Obviously sample size is low but it seems he needs to dribble the ball first to get his rhythm.

Compared to last year’s 22% on catch and shoot 3s and 19% on pullup 3s. (Almost same number of attempts 2.3 and 1.8 respectively last year)

His mid range pullup has also improved from 27.7% (1.72fgapg) to 51.4% at (1.9fgapg).

His pullup game has improved dramatically, but his catch and shoot has not improved. so it is possible and there is hope that he can also improve his catch and shoot which is what we need from someone to play alongside Franz and P5
Source:
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630591/shots-dash?Season=2022-23

You kind of cheery picking. All the stats you are picking are on very low number and because of that they don't disprove the argument that he is not a good shooter. He is best at within 10 feet and those are mostly layups and dunks.

Just like everyone here I am a Magic fan and I hope for the best with all our players. That includes Suggs. I just feel that right now he has not shown himself to be a good player and to the original topic, he should not be starting over Fultz. Hopefully in time he will prove me wrong.