Garnett comparison to Robinson and KMalone - How is he ranked higher

[migya]

There's been similar discussions before but can you lot on here, PC board, give a "clear" explanation of how Garnett has a case to be ranked higher than either or both Robinson and KMalone? What is his longevity, give the years if you can?

Use your metric systems, go the plus and the minus, bring up all the evidence, there has been a few cited before but with Garnett ranked as high as #10 on here, and Robinson and Malone as seemingly good points of reference for a top 12-20 ranking alltime, compare Garnett to them and make the case.



Some information about these three players (add your own if you will):


Numbers


RS boxscore and advanced stats:

Garnett - 1462gm, 34.5mins, 17.8pts, 49.7fg%, 3.3ftm, 78.9ft%, 10reb, 3.7ast, 1.3stl, 1.4blk, 2.2tos, 110OR, 99DR, 22.7PER, 54.6ts%, 99.9ows, 91.5dws, 191.4ws, .182ws/48, 5.6bpm, 96.9vorp, +5.2oncourt, +11.3on/off

Robinson - 987gm, 34.7mins, 21.1pts, 51.8fg%, 6.1ftm, 73.6ft%, 10.6reb, 2.5ast, 1.4stl, 3blk, 2.4tos, 116OR, 96DR, 26.2PER, 58.3ts%, 98.5ows, 80.1dws, 178.7ws, .250ws/48, 7.5bpm, 81.9vorp, +9.9oncourt, +6.1on/off

Malone - 1476gm, 37.2min, 25pts, 51.6fg%, 6.6ftm, 74.2ft%, 10.1reb, 3.6ast, 1.4stl, 0.8blk, 3.1tos, 113OR, 101DR, 23.9per, 57.7TS%, 142.2ows, 92.4dws, 234.6ws, .205ws/48, 5.1BPM, 99.0VORP, +7.2oncourt, +10.3on/off


PS boxscore and advanced stats:

Garnett - 143gm, 36.9mins, 18.2pts, 48fg%, 3.3ftm, 79ft%, 10.7reb, 3.3ast, 1.2stl, 1.3blk, 2.4tos, 105OR, 99DR, 21.1PER, 52.5ts%, 7.1ows, 9.3dws, 16.4ws, .149ws/48, 5.1bpm, 9.4vorp, +2.5oncourt, +14.5on/off

Robinson - 123gm, 34.3mins, 18.1pts, 47.9fg%, 5.6ftm, 70.8ft%, 10.6reb, 2.3ast, 1.2stl, 2.5blk, 2.3tos, 110OR, 96DR, 23PER, 54.7ts%, 7.8ows, 9.7dws, 17.5ws, .199ws/48, 6.2bpm, 8.7vorp, +10.3oncourt, +18.9on/off

Malone - 193gm, 41min, 24.7pts, 46.3fg%, 6.6ftm, 73.6ft%, 10.7reb, 3.2ast, 1.3stl, 0.7blk, 2.8tos, 106OR, 103DR, 21.1PER, 52.6ts%, 11.3ows, 11.6dws, 23.0ws, .140ws/48, 4.1bpm, 12.1vorp, +0.8oncourt, +13.6on/off


* oncourt and on/off stats are 1997 onwards and so miss most of Robinson's and Malone's primes.





I think Garnett's true prime seasons were 2000-12 but maybe it ended in 2010 or 2011. I don't see that as any real great or even very good longevity, being 13 years. His peak was great, particularly defensively, which many cite as being why they rank him so high, and there certainly is merit of that, but his scoring wasn't great comparatively and that is a major factor.

Many state the PS drop from Robinson and Malone is big but Garnett dropped as well. He is more similar to Robinson in that his defense mostly held up in the playoffs, but that Robinson was clearly a better scorer with 11 years prime (1990-2001, minus 97) and Malone much more longevity and years at a high level.



******** As a side discussion, looking at Shaq, he isn't exactly clearly better than these three guys for career and he is in most top 10 alltime rankings.

[eminence]

I have KGs prime notably longer than at '97-'13 (not all the same level, but all All-NBA+ level seasons), which pretty cleanly ices his case over Robinson. Gugliotta and 19 year old Starbury to the playoffs, that's an All-NBA season in my book.

With equal longevity the defensive gap gives him the clear win over Malone for me.

I debate KG from 4-6 with Russell/MJ.

[Bad Gatorade]

I'm just going to throw it out there...

If you're including 2001 in Robinson's prime (where he was quite arguably similar to Boston Garnett post 2010), chances are you should also be including seasons like 1997-1999 Garnett, which were All Star years at absolute minimum . It also seems questionable that you're saying Garnett doesn't have great, or "even very good" longevity, when he is 4th all time in All Star games played, ahead of Karl Malone and David Robinson and one of the three players ahead of him (Kobe) has 3 incredibly clear seasons in which he was not an all star level player in 2014-2016 (and I'd probably remove 1998 too, to be honest).

I'd also state that "Garnett also dropping in the PS" feels disingenuous when metrics that you've used such as BPM/PER etc show larger drops in Robinson/Malone, and this is without scaling for the fact that Garnett played in the PS more in Boston (where he "stuffed the stat sheet" less, but continued to play some excellent ball).

I feel like people generally think rather similarly of Garnett and Robinson as players, but acknowledge that Garnett has clearly better longevity, and give him the nod.

I feel like people just plain think Garnett is a better player than Malone, possibly aided by Malone shooting only 52.6 TS% in the playoffs (which is a louder alarm bell than Garnett shooting a comparable percentage, as Garnett had lower usage and was more productive on defence).

[penbeast0]

I have KGs prime notably longer than at '97-'13 (not all the same level, but all All-NBA+ level seasons), which pretty cleanly ices his case over Robinson. Gugliotta and 19 year old Starbury to the playoffs, that's an All-NBA season in my book.

With equal longevity the defensive gap gives him the clear win over Malone for me.

I debate KG from 4-6 with Russell/MJ.

What 3 players do you have above both Bill Russell and Michael Jordan? I am curious.

[eminence]

I have KGs prime notably longer than at '97-'13 (not all the same level, but all All-NBA+ level seasons), which pretty cleanly ices his case over Robinson. Gugliotta and 19 year old Starbury to the playoffs, that's an All-NBA season in my book.

With equal longevity the defensive gap gives him the clear win over Malone for me.

I debate KG from 4-6 with Russell/MJ.

What 3 players do you have above both Bill Russell and Michael Jordan? I am curious.

LeBron, Duncan, and KAJ in that order.

[ceoofkobefans]

I have KGs prime notably longer than at '97-'13 (not all the same level, but all All-NBA+ level seasons), which pretty cleanly ices his case over Robinson. Gugliotta and 19 year old Starbury to the playoffs, that's an All-NBA season in my book.

With equal longevity the defensive gap gives him the clear win over Malone for me.

I debate KG from 4-6 with Russell/MJ.

What 3 players do you have above both Bill Russell and Michael Jordan? I am curious.

LeBron, Duncan, and KAJ in that order.

Tim Duncan *2nd all time* and MJ 4-6 is quite an interesting take. Why do you think this and what’s your top 25 players ever? If you have one

[eminence]

What 3 players do you have above both Bill Russell and Michael Jordan? I am curious.

LeBron, Duncan, and KAJ in that order.

Tim Duncan *2nd all time* and MJ 4-6 is quite an interesting take. Why do you think this and what’s your top 25 players ever? If you have one

I don't have the back portion updated very well for newer guys (Curry/KD/CP3/Harden?), also want to go back and look at the ABA some more, but tiers, only top 4 ordered today off the top:

LeBron

Duncan
KAJ

Russell
MJ
KG

Wilt
Magic
Shaq
Oscar
Hakeem
Kobe
Bird
Dirk
West

(not ordered)
Karl Malone
Robinson
Steph
Dr J
CP3
KD
Moses
Barkley
(Mikan somewhere in this tier, but very imprecise, almost more of an HM)

(not ordered)
Pettit
Nash
Wade
Stockton
Pippen
Ewing
Frazier
Harden
Baylor
Kidd
Drexler
Miller

Possible I missed folks in that last tier (especially newer guys - should Giannis/Jokic be there yet? I don't know).

[Texas Chuck]

For me Robinson is the most natural KG comparison. Both had to be the 1st option for a large chunk of their career when ideally probably neither are. Robinson scores better, KG facilitates better. I have Robinson as a better defensive player, but I understand most are higher on KG's defense than me so a edge for note for me probably disappears for the bulk of posters here.

KG has a clear longevity edge over Robinson and that matters to me because it mattered to actual NBA teams. I don't really see a case for Robinson being rated alongside KG. Even with me thinking he was probably a better player at his best than KG was. Again, really high on his defense. Russell is the only player I am certain was a better defender.

Mailman is just a very different player. I don't think he gets nearly enough respect for his RS play over an absurdly long time. And while his playoff efficiency leaves a lot to be desired, part of that I think is he never got to play with a dynamic perimeter threat. Stockton a great player and he played with some others, but he had to bear the load every single night for nearly 2 decades.

I have a much easier time with Mailman around KG's level. In full disclosure I have KG several spots ahead, but the case for Malone is absolutely there imo.

[70sFan]

I actually have Malone and KG relatively close (something like 10th vs 14th), but Garnett's defensive advantage gives him a clear edge over Malone offense and longevity arguments.

Robinson is comparable to KG in terms of primes (I can even say he peaked higher?), but Admiral's problem is his weak longevity. Let's stay with 1990-01 as his prime (I have real doubts to include 2001, but fair). That gives us 11 seasons (excluding 1997 due to injury) of relevant career, very short for a top 20 player. Now, if we include 2001 as a relevant year in this comparison, then Garnett was at least on that level in every single season of 1997-12 period, which is 16 seasons. 5 more years is a lot. Even if you want to disagree about 1997, or exclude 2009 due to injury - that's still a significant gap. To overcome such gap, Robinson would have to prove himself to be much better than Garnett and I just don't see that.

[rk2023]

There's been similar discussions before but can you lot on here, PC board, give a "clear" explanation of how Garnett has a case to be ranked higher than either or both Robinson and KMalone? What is his longevity, give the years if you can?

Use your metric systems, go the plus and the minus, bring up all the evidence, there has been a few cited before but with Garnett ranked as high as #10 on here, and Robinson and Malone as seemingly good points of reference for a top 12-20 ranking alltime, compare Garnett to them and make the case.



Some information about these three players (add your own if you will):


Numbers


RS boxscore and advanced stats:

Garnett - 1462gm, 34.5mins, 17.8pts, 49.7fg%, 3.3ftm, 78.9ft%, 10reb, 3.7ast, 1.3stl, 1.4blk, 2.2tos, 110OR, 99DR, 22.7PER, 54.6ts%, 99.9ows, 91.5dws, 191.4ws, .182ws/48, 5.6bpm, 96.9vorp, +5.2oncourt, +11.3on/off

Robinson - 987gm, 34.7mins, 21.1pts, 51.8fg%, 6.1ftm, 73.6ft%, 10.6reb, 2.5ast, 1.4stl, 3blk, 2.4tos, 116OR, 96DR, 26.2PER, 58.3ts%, 98.5ows, 80.1dws, 178.7ws, .250ws/48, 7.5bpm, 81.9vorp, +9.9oncourt, +6.1on/off

Malone - 1476gm, 37.2min, 25pts, 51.6fg%, 6.6ftm, 74.2ft%, 10.1reb, 3.6ast, 1.4stl, 0.8blk, 3.1tos, 113OR, 101DR, 23.9per, 57.7TS%, 142.2ows, 92.4dws, 234.6ws, .205ws/48, 5.1BPM, 99.0VORP, +7.2oncourt, +10.3on/off


PS boxscore and advanced stats:

Garnett - 143gm, 36.9mins, 18.2pts, 48fg%, 3.3ftm, 79ft%, 10.7reb, 3.3ast, 1.2stl, 1.3blk, 2.4tos, 105OR, 99DR, 21.1PER, 52.5ts%, 7.1ows, 9.3dws, 16.4ws, .149ws/48, 5.1bpm, 9.4vorp, +2.5oncourt, +14.5on/off

Robinson - 123gm, 34.3mins, 18.1pts, 47.9fg%, 5.6ftm, 70.8ft%, 10.6reb, 2.3ast, 1.2stl, 2.5blk, 2.3tos, 110OR, 96DR, 23PER, 54.7ts%, 7.8ows, 9.7dws, 17.5ws, .199ws/48, 6.2bpm, 8.7vorp, +10.3oncourt, +18.9on/off

Malone - 193gm, 41min, 24.7pts, 46.3fg%, 6.6ftm, 73.6ft%, 10.7reb, 3.2ast, 1.3stl, 0.7blk, 2.8tos, 106OR, 103DR, 21.1PER, 52.6ts%, 11.3ows, 11.6dws, 23.0ws, .140ws/48, 4.1bpm, 12.1vorp, +0.8oncourt, +13.6on/off


* oncourt and on/off stats are 1997 onwards and so miss most of Robinson's and Malone's primes.





I think Garnett's true prime seasons were 2000-12 but maybe it ended in 2010 or 2011. I don't see that as any real great or even very good longevity, being 13 years. His peak was great, particularly defensively, which many cite as being why they rank him so high, and there certainly is merit of that, but his scoring wasn't great comparatively and that is a major factor.

Many state the PS drop from Robinson and Malone is big but Garnett dropped as well. He is more similar to Robinson in that his defense mostly held up in the playoffs, but that Robinson was clearly a better scorer with 11 years prime (1990-2001, minus 97) and Malone much more longevity and years at a high level.



******** As a side discussion, looking at Shaq, he isn't exactly clearly better than these three guys for career and he is in most top 10 alltime rankings.

One question I do have at very first glance is where the Moses on/off comes from, as well as pre 1993-94 David Robinson. I have some data from Harvey Pollack on the 77-93 76ers and some 1993-94 through 1995-96 on/offs, but am curious for the whole sample or where it's derived from. Thank you for the share, might add some additional data as I come across it.

[dygaction]

Don't think it is a consensus that KG should be ranked higher than KMalone at all... Malone's edge on scoring and longevity are gigantic, 193 vs 143 playoff games played, 19 series win vs 13 series wins.
Many people count KG's 09-13 seasons (14ppg/8rpg/3a, age 32-36) as his prime, but there are not many ATG players had the luxury to focus on one side of the floor and have teammates taking care of offense. In comparison, Malone put up 24/5p/9.2r/4.2a in the 8 seasons at age 32-39, with real prime contribution.

[migya]

2001 Robinson had big impact which seems higher than Garnett outside of 1999-2012, but understand if that season isn't counted. Think he was at a considerably higher level than Garnett offensively, carrying his team on both ends to average of about 55 wins per year in his prime. The pre 97 +/- for Robinson would be insane.

It's amazing how Malone was still carrying the Jazz offensively into the 00s. Think his passing is underrated and he too lead his team to about 55 wins per year for some 12-13 years.

All three of these guys carried their teams in at least some aspects.


Interested in what many think about Shaq compared to these three. The numbers don't hold him as high.

[picko]

I don't see a particularly compelling argument for Garnett other than 'oh wow, he played for a long time didn't he?'.

If you take their performance from 24 to 37 - the course of Robinson's career - the gap in advanced metrics is considerable.

Regular season:

Robinsion: 26.2 PER ~ .250 WS/48 ~ 7.5 BPM
Garnett: 24.0 PER ~ 0.204 WS/48 ~ 6.5 BPM

Playoffs:

Robinson: 23.0 PER ~ 0.199 WS/48 ~ 6.2 BPM
Garnett: 21.3 PER ~ 0.161 WS/48 ~ 5.2 BPM

I don't think that a heap of pre-prime and post-prime seasons from Garnett should really shift the ledger. Robinson peaked higher and was a more impactful player throughout his prime. If you wanted to win games then having Robinson on your team was more valuable than having Garnett.

[dygaction]

I have KGs prime notably longer than at '97-'13 (not all the same level, but all All-NBA+ level seasons), which pretty cleanly ices his case over Robinson. Gugliotta and 19 year old Starbury to the playoffs, that's an All-NBA season in my book.

With equal longevity the defensive gap gives him the clear win over Malone for me.

I debate KG from 4-6 with Russell/MJ.

With equal longevity???
Malone actually had 11x 1st team, 2x 2nd team, a 3rd team, so real 14x all-nba selections;
Garnett actually had 4x 1st team, 3x 2nd team, 2x 3rd team, so real 9x all-nba selections.

The reality is after 2009, KG turned into a defensive specialist, with a few rightfully all-D selections, but not all-nba level as he never was able to make one with 15.1p/8.1r/2.6a average. That's between KG was 32-26 yrs old. Bam in the past three years averaged 19.5a/9.6r/4.1a, 3 all-D selections, all-nba? 0! We cannot hand out all-nba like voting all star...

Malone even counting in his Laker days, at age 36-40, averaged 21.8/8.5/4.2a with two real all-nba selections.

[migya]

I don't see a particularly compelling argument for Garnett other than 'oh wow, he played for a long time didn't he?'.

If you take their performance from 24 to 37 - the course of Robinson's career - the gap in advanced metrics is considerable.

Regular season:

Robinsion: 26.2 PER ~ .250 WS/48 ~ 7.5 BPM
Garnett: 24.0 PER ~ 0.204 WS/48 ~ 6.5 BPM

Playoffs:

Robinson: 23.0 PER ~ 0.199 WS/48 ~ 6.2 BPM
Garnett: 21.3 PER ~ 0.161 WS/48 ~ 5.2 BPM

I don't think that a heap of pre-prime and post-prime seasons from Garnett should really shift the ledger. Robinson peaked higher and was a more impactful player throughout his prime. If you wanted to win games then having Robinson on your team was more valuable than having Garnett.

Yea Robinson was a level higher than Garnett, that makes a big difference. He was among the best on both ends pre Duncan. In 1994 leading the nba in scoring with literally no other competent scorer on his team and winning as much as they did, getting a top 4 seed, was one of the greatest carry jobs ever. Not many have done that. Garnett was among the best carriers himself, just not quite at that level.

[eminence]

I have KGs prime notably longer than at '97-'13 (not all the same level, but all All-NBA+ level seasons), which pretty cleanly ices his case over Robinson. Gugliotta and 19 year old Starbury to the playoffs, that's an All-NBA season in my book.

With equal longevity the defensive gap gives him the clear win over Malone for me.

I debate KG from 4-6 with Russell/MJ.

With equal longevity???
Malone actually had 11x 1st team, 2x 2nd team, a 3rd team, so real 14x all-nba selections;
Garnett actually had 4x 1st team, 3x 2nd team, 2x 3rd team, so real 9x all-nba selections.

The reality is after 2009, KG turned into a defensive specialist, with a few rightfully all-D selections, but not all-nba level as he never was able to make one with 15.1p/8.1r/2.6a average. That's between KG was 32-26 yrs old. Bam in the past three years averaged 19.5a/9.6r/4.1a, 3 all-D selections, all-nba? 0! We cannot hand out all-nba like voting all star...

Malone even counting in his Laker days, at age 36-40, averaged 21.8/8.5/4.2a with two real all-nba selections.

Yeah, I know that actual awards are given out with a massive offensive slant.

And that Karl Malone aged well, this isn't a revelation to anyone.

[dygaction]

I have KGs prime notably longer than at '97-'13 (not all the same level, but all All-NBA+ level seasons), which pretty cleanly ices his case over Robinson. Gugliotta and 19 year old Starbury to the playoffs, that's an All-NBA season in my book.

With equal longevity the defensive gap gives him the clear win over Malone for me.

I debate KG from 4-6 with Russell/MJ.

With equal longevity???
Malone actually had 11x 1st team, 2x 2nd team, a 3rd team, so real 14x all-nba selections;
Garnett actually had 4x 1st team, 3x 2nd team, 2x 3rd team, so real 9x all-nba selections.

The reality is after 2009, KG turned into a defensive specialist, with a few rightfully all-D selections, but not all-nba level as he never was able to make one with 15.1p/8.1r/2.6a average. That's between KG was 32-26 yrs old. Bam in the past three years averaged 19.5a/9.6r/4.1a, 3 all-D selections, all-nba? 0! We cannot hand out all-nba like voting all star...

Malone even counting in his Laker days, at age 36-40, averaged 21.8/8.5/4.2a with two real all-nba selections.

Yeah, I know that actual awards are given out with a massive offensive slant.

And that Karl Malone aged well, this isn't a revelation to anyone.

So you gave 20yr KG an all-nba season for carrying Gugliotta and 19yr Starbury into playoffs (let's forget Gugliott averaged 20.6/8.4/4.1a vs. KG's 17.0/8.0/3.1a), not take away his three-yrs in a row missing playoffs at prime, and give five more all-nba seasons when he did not make any. With you acknowledge KMalone aged well, it is a big revelation to many that you think they have equal longevity...

[70sFan]

I have KGs prime notably longer than at '97-'13 (not all the same level, but all All-NBA+ level seasons), which pretty cleanly ices his case over Robinson. Gugliotta and 19 year old Starbury to the playoffs, that's an All-NBA season in my book.

With equal longevity the defensive gap gives him the clear win over Malone for me.

I debate KG from 4-6 with Russell/MJ.

With equal longevity???
Malone actually had 11x 1st team, 2x 2nd team, a 3rd team, so real 14x all-nba selections;
Garnett actually had 4x 1st team, 3x 2nd team, 2x 3rd team, so real 9x all-nba selections.

The reality is after 2009, KG turned into a defensive specialist, with a few rightfully all-D selections, but not all-nba level as he never was able to make one with 15.1p/8.1r/2.6a average. That's between KG was 32-26 yrs old. Bam in the past three years averaged 19.5a/9.6r/4.1a, 3 all-D selections, all-nba? 0! We cannot hand out all-nba like voting all star...

Malone even counting in his Laker days, at age 36-40, averaged 21.8/8.5/4.2a with two real all-nba selections.

You see, 2001-03 Malone is still a star for you, because he scored many points. Garnett being the best defender in the league isn't a star for you, because he didn't score a lot of points...

The best defender in the league isn't "defensive specialist".

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

KG above Robinson is absurd for a guy the prioritizes peaks over longevity. Peak KG was well below peak Robinson.
KG and Karl Malone are more equal because KG was the better defender and less of a one trick pony. But Malone’s one trick was damned good as long as he was playing with Stockton.

[dygaction]

I have KGs prime notably longer than at '97-'13 (not all the same level, but all All-NBA+ level seasons), which pretty cleanly ices his case over Robinson. Gugliotta and 19 year old Starbury to the playoffs, that's an All-NBA season in my book.

With equal longevity the defensive gap gives him the clear win over Malone for me.

I debate KG from 4-6 with Russell/MJ.

With equal longevity???
Malone actually had 11x 1st team, 2x 2nd team, a 3rd team, so real 14x all-nba selections;
Garnett actually had 4x 1st team, 3x 2nd team, 2x 3rd team, so real 9x all-nba selections.

The reality is after 2009, KG turned into a defensive specialist, with a few rightfully all-D selections, but not all-nba level as he never was able to make one with 15.1p/8.1r/2.6a average. That's between KG was 32-26 yrs old. Bam in the past three years averaged 19.5a/9.6r/4.1a, 3 all-D selections, all-nba? 0! We cannot hand out all-nba like voting all star...

Malone even counting in his Laker days, at age 36-40, averaged 21.8/8.5/4.2a with two real all-nba selections.

You see, 2001-03 Malone is still a star for you, because he scored many points. Garnett being the best defender in the league isn't a star for you, because he didn't score a lot of points...

The best defender in the league isn't "defensive specialist".

2001-2003 are certainly comparable if not better than KG's 2011-2013. The thing is there is a big longevity gap that cannot be brushed under the "equal" carpet, unless you also agree they have the same longevity.