Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition

[shrink]

Okay, this one is out there.

I think De’Anthony Melton would be a beautiful backcourt mate with Point Ant, and obviously the Sixers think so too, since they’ve just demoted Tyrese Maxey to a bench role. Looking for a trade, here is one that will really make you question what trade value is.

PHI GETS: Russell, Prince, Naz, Forbes, $2.7 mil in savings

MIN GETS: De’Anthony Melton and .. Tobias Harris!

Why for MIN: Tobias Harris a very good starting PF with no big weaknesses, but he is not great at anything and certainly not worth the $39 mil he’s guaranteed next year. He would work as a big SF or PF upgrade, and fits with both Rudy and Towns. Melton is one of the best defensive guards in the NBA, and is on the books for $8 mil next season. The rotations are all big and talented

Why for PHI? Both these players are important to what they do, but it’s a one way street and the door is probably closing. Harris is vastly overpaid as a fourth starter. Their signing of PJ Tucker for $33 mil for 2.5 more years was a waste. The addition of Melton has marginalized Thybulle, and they have Maxey coming off the bench now?!? If the Sixers focused on winning through offense after the trade, it might be a pathway to maintain their seeding while they get their finances in order, and using their current assets better.

For example, they could go back to starting Harden and Maxey, and DLo could play with either. Thybulle could play with any of them when opponents had a backcourt that could match PHI’s scoring. Prince isn’t Thybulle, but he’s not as far off as the $30 mil salary gap would suggest. Naz Reid would be a fantastic fit in PHI, as a back up and spot starter when Embiid inevitably misses games. And the financial savings slides them under the lux, saving money now and down the road in repeater if Embiid and Harden can convince a true third star to join them. Moreover, getting off of Harris’ giant deal gives them the financial flexibility to offer fair offers to Naz, Shake and maybe even DLo in the summer.

Yeah, it’s nuts. PHi’s guys are more talented, MIN’s guys are less so, but fix PHI’s books. Trading an expiring DLo plus useful Prince for Tobias Harris second year at $39 is a huge cap sheet loss. But on the floor, if you can afford to pay him? My mind swirls.

[Klomp]

This team was ruined, you can accept it or ignore it, but offering cognitive dissidence in my eyes is not productive. Addressing none of the concerns honestly tells me people don't want to. And acting like this team is deserving of an incomplete grade is nonsensical. We have seen what they are, the fit and scheme do not work...that was the gamble and was not intended to be a long-term one. To keep allowing time and extending excuses just screams denial. If this team had a chance to be anything it would have flashed instead it is very clearly a disjointed mess which may play better without two of our "stars". At this point with all else being lost in cost, another gamble of finding a collection of winning pieces and player development is the best shot out of this rather than riding this overpaid collection of misfit toys that will struggle to avoid a play-in and that is overly optimistic at this point. We should be trying to position ourselves and not sinking investment into a lost cause. The sooner we see this the better the long-term prospects.

Was the team also ruined when they started out last year with only 22 wins in the first 45 games of the season?

[lewdog]

This team was ruined, you can accept it or ignore it, but offering cognitive dissidence in my eyes is not productive. Addressing none of the concerns honestly tells me people don't want to. And acting like this team is deserving of an incomplete grade is nonsensical. We have seen what they are, the fit and scheme do not work...that was the gamble and was not intended to be a long-term one. To keep allowing time and extending excuses just screams denial. If this team had a chance to be anything it would have flashed instead it is very clearly a disjointed mess which may play better without two of our "stars". At this point with all else being lost in cost, another gamble of finding a collection of winning pieces and player development is the best shot out of this rather than riding this overpaid collection of misfit toys that will struggle to avoid a play-in and that is overly optimistic at this point. We should be trying to position ourselves and not sinking investment into a lost cause. The sooner we see this the better the long-term prospects.

Was the team also ruined when they started out last year with only 22 wins in the first 45 games of the season?

No... but that team also had their 2022 first-round pick, their 2023 first-round pick, their 2025 first-round pick, their 2027 first-round pick, and their 2029 first-round pick.

[Baseline81]

This thread depresses me so much. I don't know if it is the state of the team or the lack of awareness that bothers me more. If people do not understand by this point the team is in shambles, there is no way to repair the damage to get back to where we were, or that we are stuck in a pitfall bound to last a decade...then I think paint chips were involved!

This was the year for this to work and should have been, but probably wasn't the impetus for the Gobert trade. Far more likely human elements took over things like desperation and instant gratification, not to mention outright incompetence.

Now, hand to God, we have people wanting to double down on this mistake, something which should have been an unforgivable sin as a fan. What the ever-loving hell? Can we not at least be introspective and internally honest at this point?

None of this really matters because in effect all opportunity has been stolen and complete indifference is warranted irrespective of ill-advised or fly by night schemes which would only randomly and probably marginally affect any outcome. I don't think this however changes the reality that the proper moves today are not dissimilar to the moves that should have been made prior to this unmitigated disaster and baffling as to why people refuse to see it.

1. We need to try to re-sign Naz and Nowell, we screwed this up and they should have never become UFAs. This is the same thing we SHOULD have done entering into the season. You hope they build value or become productive on qusi-value contracts.

2. We need to trade KAT, this SHOULD have been done years ago. Now there are likely diminishing returns, who cares at this point? It needs to be done this off-season.

3. We need to trade our useful vets that do not fit with ANT's timeline or are redundant, this SHOULD have been a player like Beasley, Beverly ect..., now it is Anderson, Prince ect...

4. We need to sell out of large contracts if we can, yes this includes DLo, but also Rudy. Any assets you can get regardless of the initial investment is the right move. DLo might get minor assets for the future and obviously could have been used in a bigger deal this past off-season. As for Rudy, same as with the time of the trade, he is a negative asset, he is a player you should have acquired picks for taking back with where this team was. Now, let's shorten that contract up if we can and not give away anything beyond a second or two, hopefully just in a swap of a bad contract that is a year shorter...rinse and repeat for a couple of years.

5. Build around ANT, McDaniels, Naz, Nowell and any other players in that general age range.

In a perfect world we would have seen this, we would have built around young "hopeful stars" and depressed value players, casted off dead weight, brought in a ton of picks to offset the moving of a few of them for younger players that were risk averse and allowed for the pivoting out of if they didn't exactly fit. None of this potential exists anymore, we cannot do a soft rebuild and maintain a competitive team and in the right moves actually improve on the foundation. It is now a rip down, fire-sale to mitigate and salvage long-term damage. We do that or we dig in only to prolong the suffering which in the end will cost any chances at retaining the players we should have built around.

Now it is likely there is nothing we can do to keep the players we want in the end and they will demand trades to get out of this mess, but we have a few years to try and hope for luck and put pieces that will be useful at that time around them before reality sets in.

What is your fascination with Nowell?

[moss_is_1]

One good thing about trading for vets from tanking teams is that they would probably be happy to come to Minnesota. Although I understand having some vets around helps youth develop in a structure. Added plus is that DLo seems to like mentoring young players.

Bojan Bogdanović (33) is paid $20 next year and $19 the year after, but the good news for MIN is that only $2 mil is guaranteed. How about Alec Burks (31) who’s on a $10.5 team option next season?

Bojan Bogdanović + Alec Burks for D’Angelo Russell + Jaylen Nowell + $4 mil cash.

Going to try and just focus on trade talks and ig ore the other stuff in this thread.

I like Bojan a lot, not sure how willing Detroit would be to move him, unless they'd like to get a flier on Dlo and Nowell to extend them and they can fit in their timeline a bit more. If we decide to really push the point ant agenda this would be great. We could roll out a pretty massive lineup, similar to LAC.

Russell + Nowell + $4 mil cash for Eric Gordon + Jae’Sean Tate + $6.7 mil TPE

Gordon is 34. His 23-24 season is $20 mil, but unguaranteed. Jae-Sean is 27, owed $6.5 mil next season with a $7.5 team option after that. It gives the Rockets a look at a couple younger players, who they can afford to re-sign. I can’t imagine Gordon is a joy in the Rockets clubhouse right now.

Who says no? I don’t watch the Rockets. Is Tate worth anything?

I like Gordon a lot, I'd try and get a little more here if we could and would like to bring back a PG and use Gordon as 6th man. He can handle the ball pretty well though. No idea about Tate, his stats look ok, but he's only played 8 games this year.

Okay, this one is out there.

I think De’Anthony Melton would be a beautiful backcourt mate with Point Ant, and obviously the Sixers think so too, since they’ve just demoted Tyrese Maxey to a bench role. Looking for a trade, here is one that will really make you question what trade value is.

PHI GETS: Russell, Prince, Naz, Forbes, $2.7 mil in savings

MIN GETS: De’Anthony Melton and .. Tobias Harris!

This one is interesting for a few reasons. Moving Prince hurts, but Harris is for sure a better player. Would he be ok coming off the bench, or Jaden?

Melton is really nice and would help a lot, IMO.

[thinktank]

This team was ruined, you can accept it or ignore it, but offering cognitive dissidence in my eyes is not productive.

Why do you think this is cognitive dissonance?

Also, this whole, “the Wolves are doomed” bit should be moved to the Gobert trade thread, or its own thread, not in the middle of our trade thread.

Yep. No trade ideas have been offered by the poster whatsoever.

[MN7725]

One good thing about trading for vets from tanking teams is that they would probably be happy to come to Minnesota. Although I understand having some vets around helps youth develop in a structure. Added plus is that DLo seems to like mentoring young players.

Bojan Bogdanović (33) is paid $20 next year and $19 the year after, but the good news for MIN is that only $2 mil is guaranteed. How about Alec Burks (31) who’s on a $10.5 team option next season?

Bojan Bogdanović + Alec Burks for D’Angelo Russell + Jaylen Nowell + $4 mil cash.

Going to try and just focus on trade talks and ig ore the other stuff in this thread.

I like Bojan a lot, not sure how willing Detroit would be to move him, unless they'd like to get a flier on Dlo and Nowell to extend them and they can fit in their timeline a bit more. If we decide to really push the point ant agenda this would be great. We could roll out a pretty massive lineup, similar to LAC.

Bojan signed a two year extension with DET in October, he would have been an upcoming UFA, so DET is going to get something decent if they trade him


I could see Burks maybe with Fournier (I wouldn't do it, rather keep Russell)

Fournier, Burks to Wolves

D Rose to Det, Knicks have Detroit's 2024 and 2025 2nd round picks to give back

I don't think Toppin or Quickley are possible, since my understanding is the Knicks won't really benefit that much from getting off Fournier's salary with RJ Barrett's extension kicking in, Cam Reddish is out of rotation along with Fournier, if Wolves wanted him

I always get a kick out of ANT's reaction , funny to see ANT and T Maxey almost in awe of Cam just a couple of years ago

Watch on YouTube

Burks is a good shooter and one of the better rebounding guards/wings, Thibs used him as the starting PG for a stretch last season
Hope that Fournier reverts back to career form, which as a shooter is comparable to Russell, has the chemistry with Gobert built in
Reddish goes back to something closer to when he was in ATL (which was very mediocre)

Obviously no one would be happy with that in a trade, but I think that more in line with what Wolves would get in return rather than quality players like Bojan or Tobias

Hope I'm wrong!

[Domejandro]

…
He’s slow and a very poor defender. Here, he’s a bigger Bryn Forbes, or a smarter Matt Ryan. I wish he was the Mike Miller- archetype, but he isn’t. A MIN deal is just to clear his negative salary off the Spurs books and turn it into additional cap space for your GM to sell like Presti, not because we want McDermott.

I didn’t notice this the first time I replied. I don’t think a cap space argument would fly with the Spurs, for trading McD. They are currently below the salary floor by over $14 M. They’re going to have to write bonus checks to the players, to get up to the salary minimum, as it stands. This version of the Spurs may be bad, but at least it’s cheap. Lol

I hope not. If that happens, that’s a failure on your GM’s ability to find bad contracts to absorb for profit.

Cap space is an asset, and not using it .. especially giving players a bonus to meet the salary floor .. is malfeasance.

Ten teams are still over the lux, and if the Spurs agree to absorb a contract, even an expiring, it can save that team 2-3 times as much money, and they should be very motivated to give the Spurs things they can use, like 2nd rounders, maybe a late 1st, or prospects.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/tax/

I clicked the wrong post to quote, but it's part of this conversation. I think Doug McDermott would get more minutes on Minnesota than people would expect, being able to shoot 43% on threes at high volume (per minute) is a tremendous asset, he has great in-between game, and he keeps the offense moving. I would be very happy to have him as part of a larger deal, even if his contract is slightly bloated.

[minimus]

Russell + Nowell + $4 mil cash for Eric Gordon + Jae’Sean Tate + $6.7 mil TPE

Gordon is 34. His 23-24 season is $20 mil, but unguaranteed. Jae-Sean is 27, owed $6.5 mil next season with a $7.5 team option after that. It gives the Rockets a look at a couple younger players, who they can afford to re-sign. I can’t imagine Gordon is a joy in the Rockets clubhouse right now.

Who says no? I don’t watch the Rockets.

Russell + Nowell + Reid for Eric Gordon + Tate + TyTy Washington?

Is Tate worth anything?

Last game against UTA I was impressed by Agbaji strength. Nowell, Rivers looked kind of small next to him. Tate is really big and strong. I am so upset with our rebounding and toughness so I would love to add someone like Tate in wings rotation.

Watch on YouTube

[TwolvesFanRome]

Russell + Nowell + $4 mil cash for Eric Gordon + Jae’Sean Tate + $6.7 mil TPE

Gordon is 34. His 23-24 season is $20 mil, but unguaranteed. Jae-Sean is 27, owed $6.5 mil next season with a $7.5 team option after that. It gives the Rockets a look at a couple younger players, who they can afford to re-sign. I can’t imagine Gordon is a joy in the Rockets clubhouse right now.

Who says no? I don’t watch the Rockets. Is Tate worth anything?

Russell + Nowell + Reid for Eric Gordon + Tate + TyTy Washington?

According to me it is horrible starting point...

[minimus]

Russell + Nowell + $4 mil cash for Eric Gordon + Jae’Sean Tate + $6.7 mil TPE

Gordon is 34. His 23-24 season is $20 mil, but unguaranteed. Jae-Sean is 27, owed $6.5 mil next season with a $7.5 team option after that. It gives the Rockets a look at a couple younger players, who they can afford to re-sign. I can’t imagine Gordon is a joy in the Rockets clubhouse right now.

Who says no? I don’t watch the Rockets. Is Tate worth anything?

Russell + Nowell + Reid for Eric Gordon + Tate + TyTy Washington?

According to me it is horrible starting point...

can you elaborate?

[minimus]

Note: teams that are projected to be over tax line (±162 mil) after this season

GSW - 215 mil
LAC - 200 mil
MIA - 177 mil
DEN - 172 mil
NOP - 170 mil

[Domejandro]

I have a pipedream that absolutely won't happen, but hear me out because I'm bored...

Phoenix has expressed interest in Fred VanVleet, in large part because he offers them a pathway to extending their championship window. While they could trade expiring contracts for Fred VanVleet (Jae Crowder + Dario Šarić) along with picks (which would be far better for them, that team would be stacked), let's imagine that they are looking to move Chris Paul and restructure their cap, moving forward.

NOTE: Jae Crowder could be substituted for Landry Shamet if Phoenix wants to save longer-term money, but my guess is that they would prefer to trade a malcontent who is giving them no minutes.

The below deal keeps Toronto under the Luxury-Tax and Minnesota right on the margin (discussed further below), while also allowing Phoenix to duck under the Luxury-Tax threshold. I think it is pretty creative, from a salary cap finaggling perspective.

____________________________________________________________________________

PHX: Fred VanVleet and Thaddeus Young
OUT: Chris Paul, Jae Crowder, Dario Šarić, and 2023 First Round Draft Pick (1-4 Protected)

Why for Phoenix? Get a younger replacement for Chris Paul and and duck under the Luxury-Tax threshold for this season (save $17MM + $35MM in Repeater Tax penalties). Swap Dario Šarić for the a more well-rounded player in Thaddeus Young, which gives them space to sign Saben Lee to a minimum deal.

____________________________________________________________________________

MIN: Chris Paul and Jae Crowder
OUT: D'Angelo Russell, Naz Reid, Jaylen Nowell, 2024 First Round Draft Pick Swap (1-4 Protected), and two seconds

Why for Minnesota? Acquire a stable Point-Guard who is better suited to stabilizing the team offensively and leading the team (both on and off the court). Hope you can rekindle what Chris Paul did for both Phoenix and Oklahoma City. Gamble on Jae Crowder coming in ready to play. Minnesota would be with $300K of being under the Luxury-Tax.

*Minnesota receives lesser of Phoenix and Minnesota 2024 First.

Chris Paul / Kyle Anderson / Jordan McLaughlin
Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Nowell / Austin Rivers
Jaden McDaniels / Taurean Prince / Wendell Moore Jr.
Karl-Anthony Towns / Jae Crowder / Josh Minott
Rudy Gobert / Nathan Knight

2WP: Matt Ryan and Luka Garza

Near the Trade Deadline, Minnesota would send Austin Rivers and cash to a team (or trade Jaylen Nowell to someone). Minnesota would then have space to sign one free-agent, upgrade Luka Garza to a long-term deal (if they wanted), and then sign one more two-way player.
____________________________________________________________________________

SAS: Dario Šarić, Bryn Forbes, and two Minnesota seconds
OUT: Protected Second (31-55)

Why for San Antonio? Get two seconds in exchange for waiving Dario Šarić and Bryn Forbes. Use up a third of their remaining cap space.

Waive Stanley Johnson and then resign him, similar to what they are doing for Gorgui Dieng.

____________________________________________________________________________

TOR: D'Angelo Russell, Naz Reid, PHX 2023 FRP, MIN2024 FRP Swap, and SAS Second
OUT: Fred VanVleet and Thaddeus Young

Why for Toronto? Downgrade (kind of lateral) at Point-Guard in exchange for a fringe starting-quality big man who fits well with their other young players, a First Round Draft Pick, and a swap with Minnesota in 2024.

____________________________________________________________________________

[TwolvesFanRome]

Russell + Nowell + Reid for Eric Gordon + Tate + TyTy Washington?

According to me it is horrible starting point...

can you elaborate?

I really dislike both Gordon and Tate...especially Gordon (high 3ptA with 0.35% or below).

[minimus]

According to me it is horrible starting point...

can you elaborate?

I really dislike both Gordon and Tate...especially Gordon (high 3ptA with 0.35% or below).

Gordon situation is more about his contract that we can use as trade filler later, also his contract is not fully guaranteed. He is hitting from 3pt line the same 35% as Malik Beasley. Tate has team option in last year of his contract. But he has potential to be versatile defender. TyTy is a prospect at PG position.

[TwolvesFanRome]

can you elaborate?

I really dislike both Gordon and Tate...especially Gordon (high 3ptA with 0.35% or below).

Gordon situation is more about his contract that we can use as trade filler later, also his contract is not fully guaranteed. He is hitting from 3pt line the same 35% as Malik Beasley. Tate has team option in last year of his contract. But he has potential to be versatile defender. TyTy is a prospect at PG position.

Yes yes I understand what you mean...maybe my thinking is distorted by the fact that I would like something more than this package for Dlo...

[shrink]

Read on Twitter

Any interest in paying Cam this summer?

[BlacJacMac]

Read on Twitter

Any interest in paying Cam this summer?

I don't think so.

He doesn't seem able to shoot (outside of the FT line), rebounds horribly for his size and turns it over more than he assists.

He might not be horrible at defense?

[fattymcgee]

I didn’t notice this the first time I replied. I don’t think a cap space argument would fly with the Spurs, for trading McD. They are currently below the salary floor by over $14 M. They’re going to have to write bonus checks to the players, to get up to the salary minimum, as it stands. This version of the Spurs may be bad, but at least it’s cheap. Lol

I hope not. If that happens, that’s a failure on your GM’s ability to find bad contracts to absorb for profit.

Cap space is an asset, and not using it .. especially giving players a bonus to meet the salary floor .. is malfeasance.

Ten teams are still over the lux, and if the Spurs agree to absorb a contract, even an expiring, it can save that team 2-3 times as much money, and they should be very motivated to give the Spurs things they can use, like 2nd rounders, maybe a late 1st, or prospects.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/tax/

I clicked the wrong post to quote, but it's part of this conversation. I think Doug McDermott would get more minutes on Minnesota than people would expect, being able to shoot 43% on threes at high volume (per minute) is a tremendous asset, he has great in-between game, and he keeps the offense moving. I would be very happy to have him as part of a larger deal, even if his contract is slightly bloated.

Doug is the worst defender in the entire league! Worse than Forbes.

[DarkXaero]

Would you guys do Patty Mills, Day'Ron Sharpe, a 2nd round pick for Naz Reid, Bryn Forbes + filler? Wolves add 3pt shooting, a young center replacement (3rd string) for pending FA Reid, and get a 2nd round pick as additional value.