Has it not become overwhelmingly clear (even to management) it's time to blow this up?

[ItsDanger]

Has anyone even seen or heard from management, what management?

Because they aren't coming out and making public statements, you think they aren't actively doing their jobs?

Given the product on the court, it's seriously in question right now. If their record was 15-30 or worse, saying nothing to the fanbase is disrespectful.

[Duffman100]

Has anyone even seen or heard from management, what management?

Because they aren't coming out and making public statements, you think they aren't actively doing their jobs?

Given the product on the court, it's seriously in question right now. If their record was 15-30 or worse, saying nothing to the fanbase is disrespectful.

What do you want them to say? What can they say that doesn't potentially hamstring them in conversations around acquisitions and moves.

The only thing that would come out is "We're not happy and we're figuring things out" which would be so vague that would bring more frustration.

The time for FO public statements is after the season or after they've made acquisitions that show their intended path.

[ItsDanger]

Because they aren't coming out and making public statements, you think they aren't actively doing their jobs?

Given the product on the court, it's seriously in question right now. If their record was 15-30 or worse, saying nothing to the fanbase is disrespectful.

What do you want them to say? What can they say that doesn't potentially hamstring them in conversations around acquisitions and moves.

The only thing that would come out is "We're not happy and we're figuring things out" which would be so vague that would bring more frustration.

The time for FO public statements is after the season or after they've made acquisitions that show their intended path.

They don't need to tell me anything personally. However, the gullible fanbase at large will become apathetic at some point. Already happening in some circles.

[Duffman100]

Given the product on the court, it's seriously in question right now. If their record was 15-30 or worse, saying nothing to the fanbase is disrespectful.

What do you want them to say? What can they say that doesn't potentially hamstring them in conversations around acquisitions and moves.

The only thing that would come out is "We're not happy and we're figuring things out" which would be so vague that would bring more frustration.

The time for FO public statements is after the season or after they've made acquisitions that show their intended path.

They don't need to tell me anything personally. However, the gullible fanbase at large will become apathetic at some point. Already happening in some circles.

I don't think a statement to the 'gullible' fanbase would push them to engage (watch, attend games etc). Winning and hope does that.

Which I'm assuming they're working behind the scenes to make one of those two to happen.

[blastttOFF]

Maybe management sees our 2020 roster. We have the same core, but we won 54 games that year because of our depth.

[ConSarnit]

The problem with Nurse is that I have so little confidence in his ability to maximize the roster. He was using the bench and managing minutes pretty well for about a week and now at the start of a stretch of 5 games in 7 nights when Fred is coming off a bad back. He proceeds to tighten the rotations and not properly utilize the best players on the night, or recognize the need for skills that are glued to the bench.

So I'm not sold on writing the roster off based on the strategies implemented and the poor use of lineups. On top of that, I believe Nurse will burn through our assets. Siakam is starting to fade after a strong start and a good year last year. Fred fell apart last year and has been banged up this year, only to keep playing big minutes...in losses.

Better players will still be put in poor positions and hung out dry. Starters will still play unsustainable minutes and unsustainable schemes until they fall apart.

So we could trade Fred or Trent, but still be stuck with the real problem.

Change the coach.

What would you do differently? We have the worst backup 1-3 in the league.

You do realize the entire reason we succeeded last year is because of coaching schemes? If we didn’t crash the offensive glass or run our offense would have been awful. Nurse schemed around our deficiencies and it made us look better. How is Nurse responsible for FVV forgetting how to shoot or not having a single player who can run half court offense?

Nurse isn’t perfect but he’s not as rigid as everyone makes him out to be. The guy played McCaw 25 minutes a game. He’ll play backups if there is someone who is even competent. Guys like Flynn and Banton just aren’t ready. With Porter going down we have zero options at backup 3.

Tell me who on this team can run a pnr? Who outside of Siakam can create their own shot with any level of efficiency?

I've followed the Raptors very closely since the team's inception and while Nurse has been innovative in ways and one of the best coaches we've had. His faults are too problematic, and he's shown no signs of changing. In his very first year as coach, he essentially ended the NBA career of Malcom Miller in a meaningless summer league game. Not intentional, but he expressed frustration at Miller not getting after it enough defensively...so Miller, trying to impress the new coach flung himself around afterwards and ended up ruining his shoulder, never to regain his prior trajectory on the team.

Fred broke down last year when the whole team played huge minutes. This year the stated goal was to limits Fred's minutes. And when he's actually done it, it's mostly worked out well for the team aside from a game or two. He famously said, he's upset Malachi hadn't gotten into games when we lost 2 to Orlando and one to Sacramento back when Flynn was money from 3 and everyone else was shooting wayward...in games when all we needed was a few more shots here and there.

Now I'm seeing Siakam looking like he's lost a step after last year thinking he had unlimited stamina. But it seems like the unsustainable minutes are catching up to him too.

The bench has proven to be playable this year, so I'm not buying that excuse. Fred broke down last year. Siakam looks like he's slowing down this year.
The book is out on our defense and teams game plan for what will be available...or our team isn't capable of, committed to or energized enough to execute properly. But we keep doing it.

Our offensive strategy is left up the players to hash out.

The Nick Nurse special is to burn out the starters in games we might have won if the bench players had earlier or more frequent opportunities to contribute. He plays the numbers, not the situation. He hasn't shown the ability to recognize the importance of managing energy levels and health of his players. This isn't 2k. There have literally been several games over the past 2 seasons where our starters come out completely flat and go down big only to kept in the game and eventually fight valiantly to lose more respectably...and our bench is left twiddling their thumbs. It's insane.

His ideal role is that of a defensive specialist assistant coach and that's how he coaches IMO...no awareness of the bigger picture.

The management of Banton's role, featured then relegated. Flynn DNPs to steady minutes to DNPs. Koloko, starting to DNPs (when we could use his interior deterrence in these last few games). Not playing Precious over OG who was clearly the more impactful player. Not playing Downtin when you need defense at the PG spot. Overplaying Fred and Barnes when they're hurt or not performing well. In fact, a great deal of the Fred hate should be directed at Nurse for putting him in a bad spot and enabling his worst tendencies.

When you look for signs of him not recognizing and reacting appropriately to the situations unfolding on the court...sometimes waiting several games to make the adjustment - when it's no longer appropriate - it's problematic.

I'd personally change coaches before making major roster adjustments to see what we really have in this group.

I'm at the point where I'm really starting to question Bobby and Masai for turning a blind eye to the coaching issues.

I can't believe you are arguing Nurse is bad coach because a guy got hurt because he asked him to play defense. Please tell me that's not a serious argument.

Koloko is averaging 15min per game, is in the top 20 for rookies in minutes played and is competing against Boucher and Precious for minutes. His minutes declining are 100% correlated to Precious being back.

I don't know how anyone can argue that Flynn/Banton are playable past 10-12min roles. They are both hugely flawed players. Flynn us least efficient offensive player on our team and has defensive issues. Banton is maybe the worst half-court player in the entire league. These guys kill us when they are on the floor.

Nurse is not enabling FVV. We have almost no one else who can run basic offensive sets in the half court. Is FVV ideal in that role? No. But we don't have other options.

Is he overplaying guys? Probably. If we do not play our starters heavy minutes we have zero chance. That is the current makeup of the team. We have zero guard or wing depth. Playing the bench more does not solve any of the major issues with this team. It's catch-22 for Nurse: rest your starters and the bench will blow the game. Play your starters and wear them down.

[ItsDanger]

We are now currently dead last in team 3 pt %.

Evaluating continues.

[WaltFrazier]

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

I like the idea of not "blowing up" the core. But there is also truth in the idea that other teams got better. I heard a truism about sports years ago, from Joe Paterno - "you either get better or you get worse, you never stay the same". The Raptors got worse, in those terms, by staying the same, or not improving.

Which doesn't point to blowing it up. It points to, in part, internal development, and also Front Office doing a better job of making significant improvements. Which they didn't do last summer.

I think it is tough to say we did not get better. Siakam got better, OG got better, Barnes lately looks a loooot better, GTJ has improved, etc. We just got absolutely derailed early in the year with injuries, our only free agent signing playing 8 games, etc. You replay this season and you don't lose Precious / Otto / Siakam all at the same time 8-10 games into the season and I don't think we derail as much.

It happened though and that cannot change, but front offices are savvy enough to realize when a team record is not necessarily indicative of the talent or future they may have. I am pretty sure moves would be made, but again I just completely disagree with anyone who thinks this teams ceiling is a play-in team. That may be true this season as the hole we dug is just to great, but you could bring this entire team back and this team again would be a team I would say could fight for a HCA bid, and it really would not take much to elevate that.

Our team rides on Scotties development - if he comes back in 2023-24 with a 2018-19 Siakam esque jump in terms of shooting ability that significantly raises our floor and ceiling. But Scotties development being key is true regardless of if we tank, go for it next year, etc.

Yeah if we hadn't had those ill-tied injuries, we might be just above .500 and in position to make the tweaks I've wanted, adding a C and a PG. Or one of those without touching the core. And besides injuries Fred's shooting fall-off was a killer.

[gbball]

What would you do differently? We have the worst backup 1-3 in the league.

You do realize the entire reason we succeeded last year is because of coaching schemes? If we didn’t crash the offensive glass or run our offense would have been awful. Nurse schemed around our deficiencies and it made us look better. How is Nurse responsible for FVV forgetting how to shoot or not having a single player who can run half court offense?

Nurse isn’t perfect but he’s not as rigid as everyone makes him out to be. The guy played McCaw 25 minutes a game. He’ll play backups if there is someone who is even competent. Guys like Flynn and Banton just aren’t ready. With Porter going down we have zero options at backup 3.

Tell me who on this team can run a pnr? Who outside of Siakam can create their own shot with any level of efficiency?

I've followed the Raptors very closely since the team's inception and while Nurse has been innovative in ways and one of the best coaches we've had. His faults are too problematic, and he's shown no signs of changing. In his very first year as coach, he essentially ended the NBA career of Malcom Miller in a meaningless summer league game. Not intentional, but he expressed frustration at Miller not getting after it enough defensively...so Miller, trying to impress the new coach flung himself around afterwards and ended up ruining his shoulder, never to regain his prior trajectory on the team.

Fred broke down last year when the whole team played huge minutes. This year the stated goal was to limits Fred's minutes. And when he's actually done it, it's mostly worked out well for the team aside from a game or two. He famously said, he's upset Malachi hadn't gotten into games when we lost 2 to Orlando and one to Sacramento back when Flynn was money from 3 and everyone else was shooting wayward...in games when all we needed was a few more shots here and there.

Now I'm seeing Siakam looking like he's lost a step after last year thinking he had unlimited stamina. But it seems like the unsustainable minutes are catching up to him too.

The bench has proven to be playable this year, so I'm not buying that excuse. Fred broke down last year. Siakam looks like he's slowing down this year.
The book is out on our defense and teams game plan for what will be available...or our team isn't capable of, committed to or energized enough to execute properly. But we keep doing it.

Our offensive strategy is left up the players to hash out.

The Nick Nurse special is to burn out the starters in games we might have won if the bench players had earlier or more frequent opportunities to contribute. He plays the numbers, not the situation. He hasn't shown the ability to recognize the importance of managing energy levels and health of his players. This isn't 2k. There have literally been several games over the past 2 seasons where our starters come out completely flat and go down big only to kept in the game and eventually fight valiantly to lose more respectably...and our bench is left twiddling their thumbs. It's insane.

His ideal role is that of a defensive specialist assistant coach and that's how he coaches IMO...no awareness of the bigger picture.

The management of Banton's role, featured then relegated. Flynn DNPs to steady minutes to DNPs. Koloko, starting to DNPs (when we could use his interior deterrence in these last few games). Not playing Precious over OG who was clearly the more impactful player. Not playing Downtin when you need defense at the PG spot. Overplaying Fred and Barnes when they're hurt or not performing well. In fact, a great deal of the Fred hate should be directed at Nurse for putting him in a bad spot and enabling his worst tendencies.

When you look for signs of him not recognizing and reacting appropriately to the situations unfolding on the court...sometimes waiting several games to make the adjustment - when it's no longer appropriate - it's problematic.

I'd personally change coaches before making major roster adjustments to see what we really have in this group.

I'm at the point where I'm really starting to question Bobby and Masai for turning a blind eye to the coaching issues.

I can't believe you are arguing Nurse is bad coach because a guy got hurt because he asked him to play defense. Please tell me that's not a serious argument.

Koloko is averaging 15min per game, is in the top 20 for rookies in minutes played and is competing against Boucher and Precious for minutes. His minutes declining are 100% correlated to Precious being back.

I don't know how anyone can argue that Flynn/Banton are playable past 10-12min roles. They are both hugely flawed players. Flynn us least efficient offensive player on our team and has defensive issues. Banton is maybe the worst half-court player in the entire league. These guys kill us when they are on the floor.

Nurse is not enabling FVV. We have almost no one else who can run basic offensive sets in the half court. Is FVV ideal in that role? No. But we don't have other options.

Is he overplaying guys? Probably. If we do not play our starters heavy minutes we have zero chance. That is the current makeup of the team. We have zero guard or wing depth. Playing the bench more does not solve any of the major issues with this team. It's catch-22 for Nurse: rest your starters and the bench will blow the game. Play your starters and wear them down.

The Malcom Miller thing was unfortunate and an extreme example of a guy hurting himself to fulfill Nurse's defensive vision. But then you have a lot more evidence to show Nurse's casual disregard for the wellbeing of his players. He treats them as disposable. Which gets glossed over when we're winning. But it's causing assets to depreciate.

The only way Nurse gets away with what he's doing is if the team wins and it's not. He invites the criticism when he overplays guys in losses. He invites the criticism when players break down as a result. He invites the criticism when the players bust their ass executing his lame duck defensive schemes and still get torched. He invites the criticism when he plays broken down or sick players important minutes in the playoffs, only to fall into an insurmountable hole as a result. But most importantly, he invites the criticism for not learning from his mistakes.

We have 4 players, all starters in the top 15 in distance traveled this season, with Fred leading the list. Only one other team has 2 players in the top 15 and that's Charlotte who plays with a ton of pace and they don't guard the way we do.

This on top of the heavy minutes on regular nights, in blowouts, in back to backs and during dense parts of the schedule in a season where contrary to what you've said, our bench has actually largely sustained or increased leads when they've gotten consistent run.

Nurse is a problem for a lot of reasons. But mainly because I think he's going to burn out our players in the long run. He's a one hit wonder and he hasn't shown the ability to adapt or take the long view after 3 years.

There's more, but no coach is perfect. But he deserves to be fired for misusing our assets and jeopardizing their long-term viability.

[WaltFrazier]

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

I like the idea of not "blowing up" the core. But there is also truth in the idea that other teams got better. I heard a truism about sports years ago, from Joe Paterno - "you either get better or you get worse, you never stay the same". The Raptors got worse, in those terms, by staying the same, or not improving.

Which doesn't point to blowing it up. It points to, in part, internal development, and also Front Office doing a better job of making significant improvements. Which they didn't do last summer.

I think it is tough to say we did not get better. Siakam got better, OG got better, Barnes lately looks a loooot better, GTJ has improved, etc. We just got absolutely derailed early in the year with injuries, our only free agent signing playing 8 games, etc. You replay this season and you don't lose Precious / Otto / Siakam all at the same time 8-10 games into the season and I don't think we derail as much.

It happened though and that cannot change, but front offices are savvy enough to realize when a team record is not necessarily indicative of the talent or future they may have. I am pretty sure moves would be made, but again I just completely disagree with anyone who thinks this teams ceiling is a play-in team. That may be true this season as the hole we dug is just to great, but you could bring this entire team back and this team again would be a team I would say could fight for a HCA bid, and it really would not take much to elevate that.

Our team rides on Scotties development - if he comes back in 2023-24 with a 2018-19 Siakam esque jump in terms of shooting ability that significantly raises our floor and ceiling. But Scotties development being key is true regardless of if we tank, go for it next year, etc.

Yeah if we hadn't had those ill-timed injuries, we might be just above .500 and in position to make the tweaks I've wanted, adding a C and a PG. Or one of those without touching the core. And besides injuries Fred's shooting fall-off was a killer.

Of course, to quote another football coach, you are what your record says you are.

[YogurtProducer]

I like the idea of not "blowing up" the core. But there is also truth in the idea that other teams got better. I heard a truism about sports years ago, from Joe Paterno - "you either get better or you get worse, you never stay the same". The Raptors got worse, in those terms, by staying the same, or not improving.

Which doesn't point to blowing it up. It points to, in part, internal development, and also Front Office doing a better job of making significant improvements. Which they didn't do last summer.

I think it is tough to say we did not get better. Siakam got better, OG got better, Barnes lately looks a loooot better, GTJ has improved, etc. We just got absolutely derailed early in the year with injuries, our only free agent signing playing 8 games, etc. You replay this season and you don't lose Precious / Otto / Siakam all at the same time 8-10 games into the season and I don't think we derail as much.

It happened though and that cannot change, but front offices are savvy enough to realize when a team record is not necessarily indicative of the talent or future they may have. I am pretty sure moves would be made, but again I just completely disagree with anyone who thinks this teams ceiling is a play-in team. That may be true this season as the hole we dug is just to great, but you could bring this entire team back and this team again would be a team I would say could fight for a HCA bid, and it really would not take much to elevate that.

Our team rides on Scotties development - if he comes back in 2023-24 with a 2018-19 Siakam esque jump in terms of shooting ability that significantly raises our floor and ceiling. But Scotties development being key is true regardless of if we tank, go for it next year, etc.

Yeah if we hadn't had those ill-timed injuries, we might be just above .500 and in position to make the tweaks I've wanted, adding a C and a PG. Or one of those without touching the core. And besides injuries Fred's shooting fall-off was a killer.

Of course, to quote another football coach, you are what your record says you are.

As a Vikings fan, I wholeheartedly disagree LOL

But the reality is we are a team who is much better than a 20-25 team. If we can trade FVV/GTJ for some good pieces who maybe overlap with Siakam/Barnes more and give 36 minutes to Flynn and Dowtin and Banton at our guard spots we should be able to get a nice top 5 or 10 pick. Consolidate our forward talent in the off-season to fill the holes and get a better fit, and come back in 2023-24 retooled. That is the play IMO. Blowing it up should not even be on the table at this point.

[dagger]

There are a lot of possibilities between "blow it up" and "stand pat", a lot of shades of grey between white and black. The Raptors do have some nice assets, and you have to manage those well. The salary cap/tax line are heading up, and are expected to take a dramatic leap in the summer of 2025. You have to manage against that as well as an organization. I mean, Fred at $25 million next season might be very rich, but if the cap rises to $200 million and the tax line to about $220 million in 2025-26, and he's two years into a new four year deal, that's a different outlook - he can be traded for backup work at that point on such a contract. For this trade deadline, there is a question of what do you get in return that would constitute good asset management? How many 2023 or 2024 picks could you get from teams - 2027 or 2029 picks have less value and stretch out a retooling/rebuilding. Whose picks are you getting? A late first round, or a mid-to-late lottery pick. Big difference.

Teams get seduced by tanking, but you look at some of them, and rebuilding has been a long, long journey of terrible teams. Think five years or more unless they get lottery luck. And you need to hope you not only draft well, but your foundational picks don't lose big time from injuries. Philly lost the first two years of Joel Embiid. That helped make the process that much longer. Now, Detroit has lost a year of Cade Cunningham's development. There are just so many things to consider heading into this deadline, including the possibility that there would be better trade offers on draft night and at the start of free agency this summer.

I doubt Masai and Bobby will bring the same team back next season, and they know that now. Tipping their hand about their intentions serves no purpose.

(As an aside, I wonder what MLSE plans to do to keep the season ticket base and current pricing intact. They have brought prices up to a level that reflects their belief this team would be at least a dark horse contender. They might have to not only freeze prices if they go into some sort of retooling, they might have to go back to offering some real perks to season ticket holders to hang on.)

[Yeezus_]

Given the product on the court, it's seriously in question right now. If their record was 15-30 or worse, saying nothing to the fanbase is disrespectful.

What do you want them to say? What can they say that doesn't potentially hamstring them in conversations around acquisitions and moves.

The only thing that would come out is "We're not happy and we're figuring things out" which would be so vague that would bring more frustration.

The time for FO public statements is after the season or after they've made acquisitions that show their intended path.

They don't need to tell me anything personally. However, the gullible fanbase at large will become apathetic at some point. Already happening in some circles.

Management for any organization doesn't really speak to what they 'intend' to do because of a disappointing season. Nothing was said during the Tampa year until the end of the season, and nothing will be said this year.

[anotherhomer]

There's a lot of basketball and non-basketball considerations (money, MLSE stakeholders like Ed Rogers, etc)

If they were to blow it up completely for this season, that may have impact on the bottom line.
There would be a lot of questions to the Raps FO like what happened, why this happened, and why did you pull the plug so early.
If they do blow it up, how do they plan to bounce back next year.

Given these internal politics, it would likely be at least till end of January before Raps FO get the greenlight to completely blow it up if they do. Also what they get for existing assets, is a big question.

For that reason, i think Ujiri may want to go to Las vegas in 2025/2026 when it becomes available.
With a good relationship with Tim Leiweke and possibly an ally in Larry not necessarily being around forever, Ujiri needs to think about the future.

There is a lot of possibilities between "blow it up" and "stand pat". The Raptors do have some nice assets, and you have to manage those well. The salary cap/tax line are heading up, and are expected to take a dramatic leap in the summer of 2025. You have to manage against that as well as an organization. I mean, Fred at $25 million next season might be untraceable, but if the cap rises to $200 million and the tax line to about $220 million in 2025-26, and he's two years into a new four year deal, that's a different outlook - he can be traded for backup work at that point on such a contract. For this trade deadline, there is a question of what do you get in return that would constitute good asset management? How many 2023 or 2024 picks could you get from teams - 2027 or 2029 picks have less value. Who picks are you getting? A late first round, or a late lottery pick. Big difference.

Teams get seduced by tanking, but you look at some of them, and rebuilding is a long, long journey of terrible teams. Think five years or more unless they get lottery luck. And you need to hope you not only draft well, but your foundational picks don't lose big time from injuries. Philly lost the first two years of Joel Embiid. That helped make the process that much longer. Now, Detroit has lost a year of Cade Cunningham's development. There are just so many things to consider heading into this deadline, including the possibility that there would be better trade offers on draft night and at the start of free agency this summer.

I doubt Masai and Bobby will bring the same team back next season, and they know that now. Tipping their hand about their intentions serves no purpose.

(As an aside, I wonder what MLSE plans to do to keep the season ticket base and current pricing intact. They have brought prices up to a level that reflects their belief this team would be at least a dark horse contender. They might have to not only freeze prices if they go into some sort of retooling, they might have to go back to offering some real perks to season ticket holders to hang on.)

[Los_29]

I've followed the Raptors very closely since the team's inception and while Nurse has been innovative in ways and one of the best coaches we've had. His faults are too problematic, and he's shown no signs of changing. In his very first year as coach, he essentially ended the NBA career of Malcom Miller in a meaningless summer league game. Not intentional, but he expressed frustration at Miller not getting after it enough defensively...so Miller, trying to impress the new coach flung himself around afterwards and ended up ruining his shoulder, never to regain his prior trajectory on the team.

Fred broke down last year when the whole team played huge minutes. This year the stated goal was to limits Fred's minutes. And when he's actually done it, it's mostly worked out well for the team aside from a game or two. He famously said, he's upset Malachi hadn't gotten into games when we lost 2 to Orlando and one to Sacramento back when Flynn was money from 3 and everyone else was shooting wayward...in games when all we needed was a few more shots here and there.

Now I'm seeing Siakam looking like he's lost a step after last year thinking he had unlimited stamina. But it seems like the unsustainable minutes are catching up to him too.

The bench has proven to be playable this year, so I'm not buying that excuse. Fred broke down last year. Siakam looks like he's slowing down this year.
The book is out on our defense and teams game plan for what will be available...or our team isn't capable of, committed to or energized enough to execute properly. But we keep doing it.

Our offensive strategy is left up the players to hash out.

The Nick Nurse special is to burn out the starters in games we might have won if the bench players had earlier or more frequent opportunities to contribute. He plays the numbers, not the situation. He hasn't shown the ability to recognize the importance of managing energy levels and health of his players. This isn't 2k. There have literally been several games over the past 2 seasons where our starters come out completely flat and go down big only to kept in the game and eventually fight valiantly to lose more respectably...and our bench is left twiddling their thumbs. It's insane.

His ideal role is that of a defensive specialist assistant coach and that's how he coaches IMO...no awareness of the bigger picture.

The management of Banton's role, featured then relegated. Flynn DNPs to steady minutes to DNPs. Koloko, starting to DNPs (when we could use his interior deterrence in these last few games). Not playing Precious over OG who was clearly the more impactful player. Not playing Downtin when you need defense at the PG spot. Overplaying Fred and Barnes when they're hurt or not performing well. In fact, a great deal of the Fred hate should be directed at Nurse for putting him in a bad spot and enabling his worst tendencies.

When you look for signs of him not recognizing and reacting appropriately to the situations unfolding on the court...sometimes waiting several games to make the adjustment - when it's no longer appropriate - it's problematic.

I'd personally change coaches before making major roster adjustments to see what we really have in this group.

I'm at the point where I'm really starting to question Bobby and Masai for turning a blind eye to the coaching issues.

I can't believe you are arguing Nurse is bad coach because a guy got hurt because he asked him to play defense. Please tell me that's not a serious argument.

Koloko is averaging 15min per game, is in the top 20 for rookies in minutes played and is competing against Boucher and Precious for minutes. His minutes declining are 100% correlated to Precious being back.

I don't know how anyone can argue that Flynn/Banton are playable past 10-12min roles. They are both hugely flawed players. Flynn us least efficient offensive player on our team and has defensive issues. Banton is maybe the worst half-court player in the entire league. These guys kill us when they are on the floor.

Nurse is not enabling FVV. We have almost no one else who can run basic offensive sets in the half court. Is FVV ideal in that role? No. But we don't have other options.

Is he overplaying guys? Probably. If we do not play our starters heavy minutes we have zero chance. That is the current makeup of the team. We have zero guard or wing depth. Playing the bench more does not solve any of the major issues with this team. It's catch-22 for Nurse: rest your starters and the bench will blow the game. Play your starters and wear them down.

The Malcom Miller thing was unfortunate and an extreme example of a guy hurting himself to fulfill Nurse's defensive vision. But then you have a lot more evidence to show Nurse's casual disregard for the wellbeing of his players. He treats them as disposable. Which gets glossed over when we're winning. But it's causing assets to depreciate.

The only way Nurse gets away with what he's doing is if the team wins and it's not. He invites the criticism when he overplays guys in losses. He invites the criticism when players break down as a result. He invites the criticism when the players bust their ass executing his lame duck defensive schemes and still get torched. He invites the criticism when he plays broken down or sick players important minutes in the playoffs, only to fall into an insurmountable hole as a result. But most importantly, he invites the criticism for not learning from his mistakes.

We have 4 players, all starters in the top 15 in distance traveled this season, with Fred leading the list. Only one other team has 2 players in the top 15 and that's Charlotte who plays with a ton of pace and they don't guard the way we do.

This on top of the heavy minutes on regular nights, in blowouts, in back to backs and during dense parts of the schedule in a season where contrary to what you've said, our bench has actually largely sustained or increased leads when they've gotten consistent run.

Nurse is a problem for a lot of reasons. But mainly because I think he's going to burn out our players in the long run. He's a one hit wonder and he hasn't shown the ability to adapt or take the long view after 3 years.

There's more, but no coach is perfect. But he deserves to be fired for misusing our assets and jeopardizing their long-term viability.

If Nurse was really like that, he would've been gone a long time ago. These wacky theories about Nurse just don't carry any weight. Medical staff would've stepped in, the front office would've stepped in.

Coaches are important in this league but even the best coaches in the league can't do anything if there is a blatant lack of talent. Spoelstra, Lue and Nurse are considered the best coaches in the league. All three of them have their teams hovering around .500. You can only do so much with teams that lack talent and/or are injured.

[DelAbbot]

There are a lot of possibilities between "blow it up" and "stand pat", a lot of shades of grey between white and black. The Raptors do have some nice assets, and you have to manage those well. The salary cap/tax line are heading up, and are expected to take a dramatic leap in the summer of 2025. You have to manage against that as well as an organization. I mean, Fred at $25 million next season might be very rich, but if the cap rises to $200 million and the tax line to about $220 million in 2025-26, and he's two years into a new four year deal, that's a different outlook - he can be traded for backup work at that point on such a contract. For this trade deadline, there is a question of what do you get in return that would constitute good asset management? How many 2023 or 2024 picks could you get from teams - 2027 or 2029 picks have less value and stretch out a retooling/rebuilding. Whose picks are you getting? A late first round, or a mid-to-late lottery pick. Big difference.

Teams get seduced by tanking, but you look at some of them, and rebuilding has been a long, long journey of terrible teams. Think five years or more unless they get lottery luck. And you need to hope you not only draft well, but your foundational picks don't lose big time from injuries. Philly lost the first two years of Joel Embiid. That helped make the process that much longer. Now, Detroit has lost a year of Cade Cunningham's development. There are just so many things to consider heading into this deadline, including the possibility that there would be better trade offers on draft night and at the start of free agency this summer.

I doubt Masai and Bobby will bring the same team back next season, and they know that now. Tipping their hand about their intentions serves no purpose.

(As an aside, I wonder what MLSE plans to do to keep the season ticket base and current pricing intact. They have brought prices up to a level that reflects their belief this team would be at least a dark horse contender. They might have to not only freeze prices if they go into some sort of retooling, they might have to go back to offering some real perks to season ticket holders to hang on.)

Good points.

But you dont think Fred knows salary cap is going up and thus adjust his demands accordingly? He said the baseline he is willing to accept is 130M over 4 years which is 32.5M per year.

[Oakvillehoops]

Part of me feels like our bad 3 point shooting has a strong correlation with the amount of effort our guys have to put in on defense.

Our over rotate, help, help, and sprint to close out the corner defense would be extremely draining to play. In addition to our undersized players fighting to out rebound 7 footers from not having a center.

I think these are highly plausible reasons for our awful 3 point shooting. They didn’t all just forget how to shoot. There legs are just dead when they get a shot

[gbball]

I can't believe you are arguing Nurse is bad coach because a guy got hurt because he asked him to play defense. Please tell me that's not a serious argument.

Koloko is averaging 15min per game, is in the top 20 for rookies in minutes played and is competing against Boucher and Precious for minutes. His minutes declining are 100% correlated to Precious being back.

I don't know how anyone can argue that Flynn/Banton are playable past 10-12min roles. They are both hugely flawed players. Flynn us least efficient offensive player on our team and has defensive issues. Banton is maybe the worst half-court player in the entire league. These guys kill us when they are on the floor.

Nurse is not enabling FVV. We have almost no one else who can run basic offensive sets in the half court. Is FVV ideal in that role? No. But we don't have other options.

Is he overplaying guys? Probably. If we do not play our starters heavy minutes we have zero chance. That is the current makeup of the team. We have zero guard or wing depth. Playing the bench more does not solve any of the major issues with this team. It's catch-22 for Nurse: rest your starters and the bench will blow the game. Play your starters and wear them down.

The Malcom Miller thing was unfortunate and an extreme example of a guy hurting himself to fulfill Nurse's defensive vision. But then you have a lot more evidence to show Nurse's casual disregard for the wellbeing of his players. He treats them as disposable. Which gets glossed over when we're winning. But it's causing assets to depreciate.

The only way Nurse gets away with what he's doing is if the team wins and it's not. He invites the criticism when he overplays guys in losses. He invites the criticism when players break down as a result. He invites the criticism when the players bust their ass executing his lame duck defensive schemes and still get torched. He invites the criticism when he plays broken down or sick players important minutes in the playoffs, only to fall into an insurmountable hole as a result. But most importantly, he invites the criticism for not learning from his mistakes.

We have 4 players, all starters in the top 15 in distance traveled this season, with Fred leading the list. Only one other team has 2 players in the top 15 and that's Charlotte who plays with a ton of pace and they don't guard the way we do.

This on top of the heavy minutes on regular nights, in blowouts, in back to backs and during dense parts of the schedule in a season where contrary to what you've said, our bench has actually largely sustained or increased leads when they've gotten consistent run.

Nurse is a problem for a lot of reasons. But mainly because I think he's going to burn out our players in the long run. He's a one hit wonder and he hasn't shown the ability to adapt or take the long view after 3 years.

There's more, but no coach is perfect. But he deserves to be fired for misusing our assets and jeopardizing their long-term viability.

If Nurse was really like that, he would've been gone a long time ago. These wacky theories about Nurse just don't carry any weight. Medical staff would've stepped in, the front office would've stepped in.

Coaches are important in this league but even the best coaches in the league can't do anything if there is a blatant lack of talent. Spoelstra, Lue and Nurse are considered the best coaches in the league. All three of them have their teams hovering around .500. You can only do so much with teams that lack talent and/or are injured.

I'm not sure that the team would obviously step in necessarily. Thibodeau did his thing in Chicago, and the ramifications don't always show up until later.

I don't know... We're taxing our players playing defensive schemes that the league has caught onto, so it's not consistently effective...and to be effective it needs maximum effort, but then the coach isn't giving the players enough breaks to maintain their energy to play it properly, so it predictably breaks down, then the players break down while the reserves get DNPs, forcing us to play the reserves and they do alright for reserves...but then when guys get healthy again and we try to win, so it's back to tight rotations eventual burnout and subpar results again.

You see where I'm going with this.

It's plain stupid. There's no other way to put it. I want to know what is people's infatuation with Nurse?

[Los_29]

The Malcom Miller thing was unfortunate and an extreme example of a guy hurting himself to fulfill Nurse's defensive vision. But then you have a lot more evidence to show Nurse's casual disregard for the wellbeing of his players. He treats them as disposable. Which gets glossed over when we're winning. But it's causing assets to depreciate.

The only way Nurse gets away with what he's doing is if the team wins and it's not. He invites the criticism when he overplays guys in losses. He invites the criticism when players break down as a result. He invites the criticism when the players bust their ass executing his lame duck defensive schemes and still get torched. He invites the criticism when he plays broken down or sick players important minutes in the playoffs, only to fall into an insurmountable hole as a result. But most importantly, he invites the criticism for not learning from his mistakes.

We have 4 players, all starters in the top 15 in distance traveled this season, with Fred leading the list. Only one other team has 2 players in the top 15 and that's Charlotte who plays with a ton of pace and they don't guard the way we do.

This on top of the heavy minutes on regular nights, in blowouts, in back to backs and during dense parts of the schedule in a season where contrary to what you've said, our bench has actually largely sustained or increased leads when they've gotten consistent run.

Nurse is a problem for a lot of reasons. But mainly because I think he's going to burn out our players in the long run. He's a one hit wonder and he hasn't shown the ability to adapt or take the long view after 3 years.

There's more, but no coach is perfect. But he deserves to be fired for misusing our assets and jeopardizing their long-term viability.

If Nurse was really like that, he would've been gone a long time ago. These wacky theories about Nurse just don't carry any weight. Medical staff would've stepped in, the front office would've stepped in.

Coaches are important in this league but even the best coaches in the league can't do anything if there is a blatant lack of talent. Spoelstra, Lue and Nurse are considered the best coaches in the league. All three of them have their teams hovering around .500. You can only do so much with teams that lack talent and/or are injured.

I'm not sure that the team would obviously step in necessarily. Thibodeau did his thing in Chicago, and the ramifications don't always show up until later.

I don't know... We're taxing our players playing defensive schemes that the league has caught onto, so it's not consistently effective...and to be effective it needs maximum effort, but then the coach isn't giving the players enough breaks to maintain their energy to play it properly, so it predictably breaks down, then the players break down while the reserves get DNPs, forcing us to play the reserves and they do alright for reserves...but then when guys get healthy again and we try to win, so it's back to tight rotations eventual burnout and subpar results again.

You see where I'm going with this.

It's plain stupid. There's no other way to put it. I want to know what is people's infatuation with Nurse?

The team and the medical staff would absolutely step in if they felt Nurse was jeopardizing these players health. These players make millions of dollars a year, there is no way they'd let that happen. LOL. There are numerous interviews with McKechnie where he says he monitors these guy's health on a daily basis and it's ultimately up to him and the rest of the medical staff if they feel that the players aren't able to play or not. Not the coaches. Health is the most important thing.

People's infatuation with Nurse stems from the fact he's an excellent coach and is considered an excellent coach by everyone around the league.

[WaltFrazier]

Has anyone even seen or heard from management, what management?

Masai speech coming soon: We will win in Toronto.


Just may take longer than we thought