The Decision on Fultz?

[fendilim]

I am really not trying to make this into a Barnes vs Suggs conversation because that is beyond the point and I really could care less about Barnes. At least Barnes had a good shooting Rookie year. He has regressed this year and that is something for Toronto to be concerned about. Suggs has had a bad shooting rookie and sophomore year and that is something we need to be concerned with.

Suggs is still a bad shooter but lets not act like he hasnt improved.

Suggs is actually shooting 37.1% on pullup 3s (meaning at least 1 dribble before a shot attempt). LOL (averaging .7/1.8)

While only 19% on catch and shoot 3s. (.5/2.5)

He is also better shooting the 3 with 3+ dribbles where he averages at least 40%. Obviously sample size is low but it seems he needs to dribble the ball first to get his rhythm.

Compared to last year’s 22% on catch and shoot 3s and 19% on pullup 3s. (Almost same number of attempts 2.3 and 1.8 respectively last year)

His mid range pullup has also improved from 27.7% (1.72fgapg) to 51.4% at (1.9fgapg).

His pullup game has improved dramatically, but his catch and shoot has not improved. so it is possible and there is hope that he can also improve his catch and shoot which is what we need from someone to play alongside Franz and P5
Source:
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630591/shots-dash?Season=2022-23

You kind of cheery picking. All the stats you are picking are on very low number and because of that they don't disprove the argument that he is not a good shooter. He is best at within 10 feet and those are mostly layups and dunks.

Just like everyone here I am a Magic fan and I hope for the best with all our players. That includes Suggs. I just feel that right now he has not shown himself to be a good player and to the original topic, he should not be starting over Fultz. Hopefully in time he will prove me wrong.

I’m not cherry picking, i’m telling you exactly where the problem is, his catch and shoot. And it gives me hope that he can improve on this because there have been improvements in other aspects of his shooting.

Do you want me to tell you about Fultz’ stats?

[Bigmagicfan82]

You say all of this and who are you advocating for? Fultz? He DOESN’T even attempt to shoot. Forget trying.

You’ve made a lot of proclamations after watching 68 games into a second year. I didn’t know draft workouts were the ceiling for 19-20 year old guys that haven’t played a game in the league yet. Suggs isn’t worse than last year. Where are you getting that?

You don’t have the numbers enough to know with Suggs. He had a bad rookie season/ injured for a lot of it. Then he’s getting limited minutes in losses to Fultz and Cole.

If he ends up be terrible after playing adequate minutes in his rookie deal, then he can be moved. That just hasn’t been the case.

And Scottie isn’t as good as Franz, so who cares what the Raps thought. It’s the draft.

Yes, I do feel that Fultz should start over Suggs.
Why. Show your work.
The offense runs better with Fultz in the line-up, he shoots better than Suggs from 2, and he is better passer.
You said Fultz doesn't shoot. I assume you mean 3pts but let's assume you meant overall FGA. Well they average about the same Suggs attempts 11 per game and Fultz attempts 10. The difference is Fultz is hitting at a 50% clip while Suggs is 41% .

Where are you getting these numbers. Fultz averages 1.3 per game and Suggs 4.2. The rate doesn’t matter if they aren’t taking them.
You obviously don't read. As I said you didn't specify if talking about 3pta or FGA so I went with FGA and you can get that from Basketball-Reference
I never said that a draft workout is the be all end all for a player. That is a strawman argument. What I did say is that it is a data point that supports what we are seeing. That he can't shoot and not as good of a player as people thought.

You cited the draft as a source for Suggs always being this way. “This is who he is”. You insinuated that he will never be a good shooter. Yeah, all the draft experts and GMs got the Suggs pick wrong. Bigmagicfan82 knew better.
LOL... You really like to use Strawman arguments. First of all the report about the bad workout came out after the draft. My point was that again it is a data point that suggests that this shooting issues is for real and something that Raptors may have seen and that will be a problem that the Magic will have with him. No where have I ever suggested that I knew more than the draft experts and GMs. That is not to say that they have never been wrong. I think we all can agree that they are not always correct. Must I remind you of Mario Hezonja over Devon Booker.

Yes he had a bad rookie season. He is also having a bad sophomore season. Is he still injured? Is that still the excuse? Why is he getting limited minutes? I would argue that it is not just to Cole and Fultz but also to Garry Harris and Ross. Is it because he play has not been that good?

He’s having a much better sophomore season. As you would expect with young players, they get better. He’s been sporadically injured. He’s been getting 10-13 minutes the last 4 games for some reason. Maybe injured. Maybe not.

I guess it depends on you definition of better. How long are you going to run with the injuries excuse?

What does Scottie Barnes have to do with this? Is the fact that Franz is a better player supposed to somehow change the fact that Suggs had a really bad workout with the Raptors and it appears that the issues they saw were spot on?

Not sure why you brought up Bouknight and Barnes. The draft is over and Suggs is on the team. What are we going to do about it now? Neither player in your examples would I want in Orlando.

LOL... Dude I didn't bring them up. Oh did you confuse what was in the report as being my opinion...lol No, no,no the person that reported about the bad workout said that Barnes and Booknight did good. Remember that is a report from after the draft. It doesn't reflect my views on either of those players.

[VFX]

Spoiler:

Yes, I do feel that Fultz should start over Suggs.
Why. Show your work.
The offense runs better with Fultz in the line-up, he shoots better than Suggs from 2, and he is better passer.
You said Fultz doesn't shoot. I assume you mean 3pts but let's assume you meant overall FGA. Well they average about the same Suggs attempts 11 per game and Fultz attempts 10. The difference is Fultz is hitting at a 50% clip while Suggs is 41% .

Where are you getting these numbers. Fultz averages 1.3 per game and Suggs 4.2. The rate doesn’t matter if they aren’t taking them.
You obviously don't read. As I said you didn't specify if talking about 3pta or FGA so I went with FGA and you can get that from Basketball-Reference
I never said that a draft workout is the be all end all for a player. That is a strawman argument. What I did say is that it is a data point that supports what we are seeing. That he can't shoot and not as good of a player as people thought.

You cited the draft as a source for Suggs always being this way. “This is who he is”. You insinuated that he will never be a good shooter. Yeah, all the draft experts and GMs got the Suggs pick wrong. Bigmagicfan82 knew better.
LOL... You really like to use Strawman arguments. First of all the report about the bad workout came out after the draft. My point was that again it is a data point that suggests that this shooting issues is for real and something that Raptors may have seen and that will be a problem that the Magic will have with him. No where have I ever suggested that I knew more than the draft experts and GMs. That is not to say that they have never been wrong. I think we all can agree that they are not always correct. Must I remind you of Mario Hezonja over Devon Booker.

Yes he had a bad rookie season. He is also having a bad sophomore season. Is he still injured? Is that still the excuse? Why is he getting limited minutes? I would argue that it is not just to Cole and Fultz but also to Garry Harris and Ross. Is it because he play has not been that good?

He’s having a much better sophomore season. As you would expect with young players, they get better. He’s been sporadically injured. He’s been getting 10-13 minutes the last 4 games for some reason. Maybe injured. Maybe not.

I guess it depends on you definition of better. How long are you going to run with the injuries excuse?

What does Scottie Barnes have to do with this? Is the fact that Franz is a better player supposed to somehow change the fact that Suggs had a really bad workout with the Raptors and it appears that the issues they saw were spot on?

Not sure why you brought up Bouknight and Barnes. The draft is over and Suggs is on the team. What are we going to do about it now? Neither player in your examples would I want in Orlando.

LOL... Dude I didn't bring them up. Oh did you confuse what was in the report as being my opinion...lol No, no,no the person that reported about the bad workout said that Barnes and Booknight did good. Remember that is a report from after the draft. It doesn't reflect my views on either of those players.

Yeah, why would I be talking about fg%? This whole thread is about how Fultz doesn’t get to the line and doesn’t shoot 3’s. How do you know the offense runs better with Fultz? None of the point guards have shown that capability.

So why bring up the draft report at all? It doesn’t matter. You could have typed nothing and it would have made more sense. He was never advertised as a great shooter. He was advertised as a clutch playmaker that played game changing defense. Both of those things are true in his second year on limited minutes.

So you don’t think he’s progressed even though it’s been pretty obvious by the eye test and the numbers? When did anyone use injuries as an excuse? Part of Suggs problem is staying healthy. It doesn’t make up for the fact that the minutes haven’t been there.

[eyriq]

I'm just not convinced that's it.

I think Mosley just feels like Fultz and Anthony are both better than Suggs right now, and that Suggs at least has some ability to play SG which the other two pretty much do not.

I don't hate the SG try, in fact seeing a Fultz|Suggs backcourt is pretty much my number one wish for the season, right there with more Franz/Paolo two man game or a trade for Simmons.

Why? You wish to have the worst shooting back court in the league?

I think the merits of a Fultz/Suggs backcourt are
1. Amazing defense: they can guard either position and turn the other team over
2. Good passing/playmaking: both can make plays for others
3. Multilevel scoring: they can both create for themselves at the rim and mid-range

Weakness: catch and shoot threes, floor spacing. I'm over that point, I'm sorta convinced we are over indexing on it. It's like we've been so deprived of it it's all we can focus on.

[fendilim]

Yes, I do feel that Fultz should start over Suggs.
Why. Show your work.
The offense runs better with Fultz in the line-up, he shoots better than Suggs from 2, and he is better passer.

Sorry, but by what metric is Fultz a better shooter at the 2 than Suggs?

[pepe1991]

It's 2023. NBA teams splash 35 threes a game, league's average 3 point shooting is 35,7% , Effective Field Goal percentage average is highest in nba history and... there are people saying that floor spacing is myth?

Holly crap, I'm on reddit.


Even at sight of spacing of one of best spaced teams vs one of worst in last several years shows what's the difference



Every player can penetrate inside and attack rim.


vs



5 defenders focus on nothing but ballhandler and ball. Where execlly this team will get open line for drive from?



Whole Suggs thing. Guy is sophmore. I'm not biggest fan of him after disaster of last year but if you already sinked 5th pick onto him, you probably want to do more with him than random 13 mpg- 4 shots a game averages that we saw in January. It's not like Magic are good team or prioritize winning. They are 5th worst team still and 12 games below .500.

[eyriq]

It's 2023. NBA teams splash 35 threes a game, league's average 3 point shooting is 35,7% , Effective Field Goal percentage average is highest in nba history and... there are people saying that floor spacing is myth?

Holly crap, I'm on reddit.


Even at sight of spacing of one of best spaced teams vs one of worst in last several years shows what's the difference



Every player can penetrate inside and attack rim.


vs



5 defenders focus on nothing but ballhandler and ball. Where execlly this team will get open line for drive from?



Whole Suggs thing. Guy is sophmore. I'm not biggest fan of him after disaster of last year but if you already sinked 5th pick onto him, you probably want to do more with him than random 13 mpg- 4 shots a game averages that we saw in January. It's not like Magic are good team or prioritize winning. They are 5th worst team still and 12 games below .500.

Not saying it's a myth, saying there is no reason to get tunnel vision and think only one build style wins in the NBA. It's still a superstar league. That is what wins 100% of the time.

[fendilim]

It's 2023. NBA teams splash 35 threes a game, league's average 3 point shooting is 35,7% , Effective Field Goal percentage average is highest in nba history and... there are people saying that floor spacing is myth?

Holly crap, I'm on reddit.


Even at sight of spacing of one of best spaced teams vs one of worst in last several years shows what's the difference



Every player can penetrate inside and attack rim.


vs



5 defenders focus on nothing but ballhandler and ball. Where execlly this team will get open line for drive from?



Whole Suggs thing. Guy is sophmore. I'm not biggest fan of him after disaster of last year but if you already sinked 5th pick onto him, you probably want to do more with him than random 13 mpg- 4 shots a game averages that we saw in January. It's not like Magic are good team or prioritize winning. They are 5th worst team still and 12 games below .500.

Getting anyone minutes at this point is easier said than done. Giving Suggs minutes means benching Fultz or Cole to free him up more minutes which would lead to lower value in the trade market.

I suspect the Magic to be active in the trade deadline to move or consolidate some players to get future picks or better players as a sum of the consolidation. Should be interesting to see who management chooses.

[Knightro]

Not saying it's a myth, saying there is no reason to get tunnel vision and think only one build style wins in the NBA. It's still a superstar league. That is what wins 100% of the time.

They're connected. You need stars and you need shooting and spacing around your stars.

LeBron James is averaging 30-8-7 and making over 60% of his 2 point shots. Defensively, especially when Davis plays, the Lakers have been good.

Yet the Lakers are toiling away at 20-24.

Why?

Because as a team they attempt the 2nd fewest threes and make them at the 4th worst percentage. They lack the necessary spacing and shooting to take full advantage of their superstar's abilities.

[jonbob17]

Not saying it's a myth, saying there is no reason to get tunnel vision and think only one build style wins in the NBA. It's still a superstar league. That is what wins 100% of the time.

They're connected. You need stars and you need shooting and spacing around your stars.

LeBron James is averaging 30-8-7 and making over 60% of his 2 point shots. Defensively, especially when Davis plays, the Lakers have been good.

Yet the Lakers are toiling away at 20-24.

Why?

Because as a team they attempt the 2nd fewest threes and make them at the 4th worst percentage. They lack the necessary spacing and shooting to take full advantage of their superstar's abilities.

Is that why the Lakers are toiling because of the threes? I mean i think it says something of how valuable other aspects of the game are despite the poor shooting of the Lakers.

Like you said Lebron is averaging 30/8/7 despite the spacing. Lebron himself is shooting 29.7% on 7 attempts a game on 59%TS. Davis is at 27/12/3 also shooting 29% from 3, on 66%TS. Both of those guys are putting up those number with one of three worst floor spacers in the game, Russell Westbrook. Both guys are having their efficiency dragged down (Lebron significantly) by the threes, or in other words, both guys are killing it on the inside where there should be no space.

The NBA has a lot of built in spacing with just how deep the 3 point line is. Davis and Lebron are still feasting on the interior despite the lack of shooting, and the statistics you provided.

The Lakers are mediocre because they have two great guys and then a bunch of misfit guys, many of which just aren't good basketball players, and certainly not rotation pieces on a team that is an actual contender. I am really not sure if there is anybody outside of Lebron or Davis that would get minutes on the Celtics...maybe Bryant depending on the health of Celtics bigs.

[fendilim]

Not saying it's a myth, saying there is no reason to get tunnel vision and think only one build style wins in the NBA. It's still a superstar league. That is what wins 100% of the time.

They're connected. You need stars and you need shooting and spacing around your stars.

LeBron James is averaging 30-8-7 and making over 60% of his 2 point shots. Defensively, especially when Davis plays, the Lakers have been good.

Yet the Lakers are toiling away at 20-24.

Why?

Because as a team they attempt the 2nd fewest threes and make them at the 4th worst percentage. They lack the necessary spacing and shooting to take full advantage of their superstar's abilities.

Is that why the Lakers are toiling because of the threes? I mean i think it says something of how valuable other aspects of the game are despite the poor shooting of the Lakers.

Like you said Lebron is averaging 30/8/7 despite the spacing. Lebron himself is shooting 29.7% on 7 attempts a game on 59%TS. Davis is at 27/12/3 also shooting 29% from 3, on 66%TS. Both of those guys are putting up those number with one of three worst floor spacers in the game, Russell Westbrook. Both guys are having their efficiency dragged down (Lebron significantly) by the threes, or in other words, both guys are killing it on the inside where there should be no space.

The NBA has a lot of built in spacing with just how deep the 3 point line is. Davis and Lebron are still feasting on the interior despite the lack of shooting, and the statistics you provided.

The Lakers are mediocre because they have two great guys and then a bunch of misfit guys, many of which just aren't good basketball players, and certainly not rotation pieces on a team that is an actual contender. I am really not sure if there is anybody outside of Lebron or Davis that would get minutes on the Celtics...maybe Bryant depending on the health of Celtics bigs.

You are right they are unplayable and not good basketball players… but what are the reasons that they suck?

Its because they do not fit in today’s NBA where you need to be efficient and space the floor. a guy like Roberson (from okc) was a really good defensive player, but is now nowhere to be found because he can’t shoot. Everyone has to learn how to shoot these days. Unless you are elite at something.

Case in point Russell Westbrook, he is averaging 16ppg 7rpg and 8apg, for someone with this stat 10years ago, as a 6th man, many teams would offer a lot to get him. But without any shooting he is unplayable and not anymore valuable.

Today’s NBA you need to be able to space the floor. Pace and space is the name of the game.

[JoshuaPotter]

Gosh guys, I hadn't been back here for too long and even at my "I don't like change" type of personality I am accused of it is clear just by watching that the game has changed dramatically.

We can try and trend set it back for sure, it is just against the known grain by a lot. Gone are the days of Jeff Van Gundy's eat the full 24 second clock and intentionally slow down the game pace to force other teams into mind numbing sets full of defense.

[jonbob17]

They're connected. You need stars and you need shooting and spacing around your stars.

LeBron James is averaging 30-8-7 and making over 60% of his 2 point shots. Defensively, especially when Davis plays, the Lakers have been good.

Yet the Lakers are toiling away at 20-24.

Why?

Because as a team they attempt the 2nd fewest threes and make them at the 4th worst percentage. They lack the necessary spacing and shooting to take full advantage of their superstar's abilities.

Is that why the Lakers are toiling because of the threes? I mean i think it says something of how valuable other aspects of the game are despite the poor shooting of the Lakers.

Like you said Lebron is averaging 30/8/7 despite the spacing. Lebron himself is shooting 29.7% on 7 attempts a game on 59%TS. Davis is at 27/12/3 also shooting 29% from 3, on 66%TS. Both of those guys are putting up those number with one of three worst floor spacers in the game, Russell Westbrook. Both guys are having their efficiency dragged down (Lebron significantly) by the threes, or in other words, both guys are killing it on the inside where there should be no space.

The NBA has a lot of built in spacing with just how deep the 3 point line is. Davis and Lebron are still feasting on the interior despite the lack of shooting, and the statistics you provided.

The Lakers are mediocre because they have two great guys and then a bunch of misfit guys, many of which just aren't good basketball players, and certainly not rotation pieces on a team that is an actual contender. I am really not sure if there is anybody outside of Lebron or Davis that would get minutes on the Celtics...maybe Bryant depending on the health of Celtics bigs.

You are right they are unplayable and not good basketball players… but what are the reasons that they suck?

Its because they do not fit in today’s NBA where you need to be efficient and space the floor. a guy like Roberson (from okc) was a really good defensive player, but is now nowhere to be found because he can’t shoot. Everyone has to learn how to shoot these days. Unless you are elite at something.

Case in point Russell Westbrook, he is averaging 16ppg 7rpg and 8apg, for someone with this stat 10years ago, as a 6th man, many teams would offer a lot to get him. But without any shooting he is unplayable and not anymore valuable.

Today’s NBA you need to be able to space the floor. Pace and space is the name of the game.

I'm just saying that for as bad as the role players in LA are and how bad everyone is saying the LA spacing is, and I don't disagree...Lebron and AD's true shooting on shots inside the arc are 64.1% and 67.6% respectively. If you can score on most possessions on that kind of efficiency...who needs shooting. Replace Westbrooks minutes with someone who can play good defense and get more usage to AD and Lebron. I think that is the secret sauce we are seeing. Get more shots in the hands of the best players.

This year there are 16 players with usage rates over 15%. 10 years ago that was 5, Carmello, Westbrook, Kobe, Kyrie, and Lebron. I think teams are now realizing you got to get your most efficient (TS%) players the most shots. Where as 10 years ago those top 4 players had an avg TS around 55%, this year 9 of the 16 are over 60%, and most of the others are high fifties.

Offense is all about efficiency, getting the most points out of every possession, but the most efficient shots come at the rim. Of course you can't score all your shots at the rim, you need some spacing, but the Lakers are a good example that a terrible shooting team can still be efficient inside. Shooting 3s isn't the recipe for success. Surely would be nice to have good shooters that can play defense, but the best way to efficiency is through the lane and at the line. Granted I desparately want an elite shooter here in Orlando, but I think we are in good shape with Franz and Paolo, and hopefully Suggs

[eyriq]

Gosh guys, I hadn't been back here for too long and even at my "I don't like change" type of personality I am accused of it is clear just by watching that the game has changed dramatically.

We can try and trend set it back for sure, it is just against the known grain by a lot. Gone are the days of Jeff Van Gundy's eat the full 24 second clock and intentionally slow down the game pace to force other teams into mind numbing sets full of defense.

The book Sprawlball comes to mind haha. I agree, the game has changed but that doesn't mean it is one dimensional I think.

[eyriq]

Watch on YouTube

[jonbob17]

Watch on YouTube

Always hate watching his pre draft tape. Gives me too much hope.

[swarlesbarkley]

Watch on YouTube

Always hate watching his pre draft tape. Gives me too much hope.

Yep. And then pair that with him using his Wash form almost out to the 3 a couple times this season - it's all a bunch of what the heck.

[jonbob17]

Yep. And then pair that with him using his Wash form almost out to the 3 a couple times this season - it's all a bunch of what the heck.

I noticed that too. A few games there I was like whoa, we are cooking here, and then a week later looked like it was back to a low push shot. He's the only Magic player, I pause and rewind and watch the form. Maybe Suggs occasionally

No idea...I like to think this tape is still in him, but theres a lot more Magic tape now. There is a lot to like about MF's game, he's going to have a long career and It would make for an amazing story for him to get back to on to a star trajectory. I just don't know if the Magic can keep buying in. Not really sure what Kelle thinks either. Does he think he can get back to that place or is he satisfied as a rotation piece?

[JoshuaPotter]

Gosh guys, I hadn't been back here for too long and even at my "I don't like change" type of personality I am accused of it is clear just by watching that the game has changed dramatically.

We can try and trend set it back for sure, it is just against the known grain by a lot. Gone are the days of Jeff Van Gundy's eat the full 24 second clock and intentionally slow down the game pace to force other teams into mind numbing sets full of defense.

The book Sprawlball comes to mind haha. I agree, the game has changed but that doesn't mean it is one dimensional I think.

Saying its one dimensional is oversimplifying.

I will oversimplify the oversimplification. We must simply put the ball in the hole more times then our opponent does at the right combination to where our PPG > their PPG. This means that we cannot just do 50/50 FTM/FTA, no we would at least need 25 more 2pts to get to 100.....

More teams seem to do that using the line stripe that causes the digit to go up 3 vs 1 or 2. I can't believe it because its like I am 12 and playing NBA live 95 on SNES all over again and just raining 3s. Always trading for the 3 ball guy.

But secretly I always knew this gift of mine would come in handy. Even though it does come at the cost to explaining why I always beat my younger brother playing the game. Dunks are 2, 3 balls are 3 and free throws are 1.

Man, i'm a simplified genius.

[Black and Blue]

As a Fultz fan, he needs to go to the bench and the starting role needs to go to Suggs. Yes, that will likely lose us more games but we need to see what we have with Suggs. I'm all for keeping Fultz and getting his contract in-line with typical backup pg salaries after next season.

I'd agree but for the implications in chemistry and culture. I think that would be a toxic decision. I prefer Suggs to Fultz. He needs to earn it though

I'm actively trying not to get too caught up with our starting front court at the moment. In a season in which we are checking what young talent rises to the top, Paolo, Franz and Carter are the only safe players. It's entirely possible the best 2 players available in our slots in the upcoming draft are guards, and (should those pan out) our current guards aren't even on the team in 2 years time.

If I'm the Magic I'm doubling and tripling down on Paolo, Franz and Carter (in forecasting my contracts on when Paolo and Franz will be eligible for new contracts/extensions), deciding who else on the roster will stay as quality backups, and keeping cap flexibility while hunting for those missing PG and SG starting pieces this offseason.

As unfair as it seems, I do feel like the window for being a starter is closing on Suggs rapidly and it's up to him to pry it back open. By that I mean the team can't avoid drafting or signing guards, assuming Suggs just turns it on at some point. The Magic need to capitalize on Paolo and Franz while they are under team control for several more years and the team is bad enough to draft high in the lottery.

Speaking of guards, Cole Anthony intimating he deserved to be a starter only hurt his case in Orlando and league-wide. Despite what his ego may allow, his biggest value in the NBA is as an offense-first backup guard in the mold of Immanuel Quickley.