NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[Exp0sed]

Jokic..my gawd

The Nuggets have played alot at home lately (where they are obviously pretty dominant)
they have a brutal 10 game schedule coming up now,playing some elite teams away and generally playoff teams (or around that range), in what's a basically a series of 4 games in 5 nights

Theyre playing the Wolves at home tonight, doesn't sound that tough but it's the back-end of a 4 in 5 (and back to back obviusly)

2 days rest and they start another 4 in 5: Indy, OKC, @ Pels, @ Bucks (pretty brutal)

2 days rest and then @ 76ers (edit: so 76ers game is a 5 in 7 away game)

3 days rest and another 4 in 5(!): Pels, Dubs, Hawks, @ Wolves

that's 10 games with no gimme games, all vs competitive to elite teams. very little rest and some of the best teams in the league on their homefloors

Jokic is gonna come down to earth (at least somewhat), perhaps the Grizz will open up a little seperation in the West?
his efficiency has got to take a serious hit, gonna be an intresting stretch that will allow us to discuss other MVP candidates as well

atm it's just Jokic...god, jeez what a monster

[AleksandarN]

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[Exp0sed]

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Hakeem is Hakeem but I don't get the rationale here
Embiid is only taking about 3PA per game out of 21 total FGA (pretty neglible) and shooting a very respectable 35% on those

"why would he be shooting threes"?

well, he does it well and it helps to open up the defense further as the opposing Center needs to get out to the 3 pt line, where most of his defenders are at disadvantage as well, as he has a great first step (for his size) and decent handle coupled with excellent finishing ability

Perhaps it's new to Hakeem, but drawing the opposing Center further away from the paint has added advantages for the entire offense, including clearing the lane of a potential rim protector and putting the latter out of position on a possible defensive rebounding situation

novel concepts i know!

[AleksandarN]

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Hakeem is Hakeem but I don't get the rationale here
Embiid is only taking about 3PA per game out of 21 total FGA (pretty neglible) and shooting a very respectable 35% on those

"why would he be shooting threes"?

well, he does it well and it helps to open up the defense further as the opposing Center needs to get out to the 3 pt line, where most of his defenders are at disadvantage as well, as he has a great first step (for his size) and decent handle coupled with excellent finishing ability

Perhaps it's new to Hakeem, but drawing the opposing Center further away from the paint has added advantages for the entire offense, including clearing the lane of a potential rim protector and putting the latter out of position on a possible defensive rebounding situation

novel concepts i know!

You should read the whole si article. He gets it. Very informative

https://www.si.com/nba/2023/01/18/nba-lost-art-of-post-play-daily-cover

[MarcusBrody]

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Hakeem is Hakeem but I don't get the rationale here
Embiid is only taking about 3PA per game out of 21 total FGA (pretty neglible) and shooting a very respectable 35% on those

"why would he be shooting threes"?

well, he does it well and it helps to open up the defense further as the opposing Center needs to get out to the 3 pt line, where most of his defenders are at disadvantage as well, as he has a great first step (for his size) and decent handle coupled with excellent finishing ability

Perhaps it's new to Hakeem, but drawing the opposing Center further away from the paint has added advantages for the entire offense, including clearing the lane of a potential rim protector and putting the latter out of position on a possible defensive rebounding situation

novel concepts i know!

I thought Hakeem's comments in that article were super interesting, but the Embiid take was the weak part. Embiid taking threes isn't a problem. He's shooting a pretty low volume, hitting them at a decent rate, and it has side benefits as you mention. For a long time it was the midrange jumpers that bothered me about Embiid's game and his tendency to settle for them. He's a decent shooter from midrange, but if he got to that spot, I thought he would be more efficient to drive more of the time. He seemed particularly likely to take them as he tired a bit. I haven't watched him during this strong stretch, though, so I can't say if that's still an issue.

[dhsilv2]

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Hakeem is Hakeem but I don't get the rationale here
Embiid is only taking about 3PA per game out of 21 total FGA (pretty neglible) and shooting a very respectable 35% on those

"why would he be shooting threes"?

well, he does it well and it helps to open up the defense further as the opposing Center needs to get out to the 3 pt line, where most of his defenders are at disadvantage as well, as he has a great first step (for his size) and decent handle coupled with excellent finishing ability

Perhaps it's new to Hakeem, but drawing the opposing Center further away from the paint has added advantages for the entire offense, including clearing the lane of a potential rim protector and putting the latter out of position on a possible defensive rebounding situation

novel concepts i know!

I thought Hakeem's comments in that article were super interesting, but the Embiid take was the weak part. Embiid taking threes isn't a problem. He's shooting a pretty low volume, hitting them at a decent rate, and it has side benefits as you mention. For a long time it was the midrange jumpers that bothered me about Embiid's game and his tendency to settle for them. He's a decent shooter from midrange, but if he got to that spot, I thought he would be more efficient to drive more of the time. He seemed particularly likely to take them as he tired a bit. I haven't watched him during this strong stretch, though, so I can't say if that's still an issue.

When those mid range pull ups off the dribble fall for Embiid...he's pretty unstoppable. I can see worrying about him just pulling up out of laziness but I'm not sure that's the case completely.

[MarcusBrody]

Hakeem is Hakeem but I don't get the rationale here
Embiid is only taking about 3PA per game out of 21 total FGA (pretty neglible) and shooting a very respectable 35% on those

"why would he be shooting threes"?

well, he does it well and it helps to open up the defense further as the opposing Center needs to get out to the 3 pt line, where most of his defenders are at disadvantage as well, as he has a great first step (for his size) and decent handle coupled with excellent finishing ability

Perhaps it's new to Hakeem, but drawing the opposing Center further away from the paint has added advantages for the entire offense, including clearing the lane of a potential rim protector and putting the latter out of position on a possible defensive rebounding situation

novel concepts i know!

I thought Hakeem's comments in that article were super interesting, but the Embiid take was the weak part. Embiid taking threes isn't a problem. He's shooting a pretty low volume, hitting them at a decent rate, and it has side benefits as you mention. For a long time it was the midrange jumpers that bothered me about Embiid's game and his tendency to settle for them. He's a decent shooter from midrange, but if he got to that spot, I thought he would be more efficient to drive more of the time. He seemed particularly likely to take them as he tired a bit. I haven't watched him during this strong stretch, though, so I can't say if that's still an issue.

When those mid range pull ups off the dribble fall for Embiid...he's pretty unstoppable. I can see worrying about him just pulling up out of laziness but I'm not sure that's the case completely.

In the past, I thought there were too many times when he'd end up resorting to them in the second half as he tired. Or even the first half at the end of his minutes before he got a breather. But like I said, I have barely watched him this season (I'm on Pacific time now, so the teams I'm knowledgeable about have shifted), and as you say, it can be a weapon when it's falling, so I'm not sure how valid that critique still is.

[dhsilv2]

lol Jokic just casually put up 36/12/10 on 13/14 from the field and 9/10 from the line. If he wasn't the reigning MVP, we wouldn't even be having a discussion.

lol, I turned that game on around halftime, and it was just so casual feeling how he just filled up the box score. The dude's insane.

[RalphWiggum]

Current betting odds (bet365):

Joker +150
Luka +225
Tatum + 450
Giannis +550
Embiid +1400

I think Giannis is going to end up missing too many games - Bud will be resting him plenty. So it will come down to the other 4.

I got Jokic at +600 just over a month ago.

Last year around the same time in the season I got him at +650.

Jokic would be my retirement plan if I had the stones to bet big instead of my typical $10 baby wagers.

[dhsilv2]

Thats a basic assumption lol you have to be on a good team to be in the MVP conversation but the national media default is to elevate players on the best teams (like top 2 in each conference.) I think its incredibly lazy to do that unless that player on the "best" team is, at the very least, putting up numbers/efficiency on par with the other top tier candidates. Tatum is clearly a level below Jokic, Luka and even Embiid this year. What those other 3 guys are doing is unprecedented so that has to be the tipping point for voters. And surprise they are all on good teams.
Also, the media won't dare talk about how improved Jaylen Brown is or how offensively deep the Celtics are this year. Its literally all about Tatum lol

He is putting up numbers/efficiency on par with the other top tier candidates, except for Jokic

Jokic: 25/11/10, 69.8% TS
Luka: 34/9/9, 60.8% TS
Tatum: 31/8/4, 61.3% TS

Jokic a tier above? Yes. The rest? Nope. Tatum is not clearly below either Luka or Embiid. Tatum has had career-high numbers across the board while also having career-high efficiency, is 3rd in ppg and plays elite defense. He's 1st in RPM and RPM Wins, 3rd in LEBRON and LEBRON WAR, and 3rd in RAPM. He's a legit MVP candidate, get over it and stop crying about the media.

As a non celtics fan, yeah his defense helps narrow that gap between him and Luka offensively. I think he's at the bottom of this tier, but he's totally in the discussion with this tier.

[p0peye]

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Unnamed fan of an unnamed player reading this post.

[cpower]

i told you Jokic would win the next 5 MVPs because he benefits from the PER formula and he's got a good team. Once Denver becomes a top 2 team in the west you have no choice but give to him.

[Exp0sed]

i told you Jokic would win the next 5 MVPs because he benefits from the PER formula and he's got a good team. Once Denver becomes a top 2 team in the west you have no choice but give to him.

right, he's only getting votes because the PER formula "benefits him"

that's sig worthy tbh

he's doing nothing exceptional, nothing whatsoever. Why are we even talking about this fraud PER manufactured superstar?

dude's just padding his PER

[Mickey8]

Hakim is right. Jokic has better moves in the post, also his touch around the basket is by far the best of all big men in the league, he's more old school in that department than any other center in the league and I can understand why Duncan and Hakim respect him a lot. Jokic also has deadly mid range but he barely takes jump shots this season which I can't understand why not , they should do pick and pop with him every other possession he would make those in high percentages.

[Mavrelous]

Jokic has the best touch around the rim I've ever seen.

[Duke4life831]

I just want to say we are half way through the season and Jokic is currently 0.2 assists shy of averaging a 25ppg triple double and currently is at a 69.8 TS%... And he's not slowing down. His last 17 games hes averaging essentially 26/12/11 on 71 TS%. His TS% right now is 12% higher than the league average. We are looking at a legit chance of a 70TS% triple double.

And just to add onto how different he is. Giannis, Luka and Joel all have a USG% of at least 38% and theyre the top 3 in the league. Ill throw in Tatum's as well at 33% (7th in the league). Jokic is currently 31st in the league in USG% with 27%. Then you can mention he is 2nd in the league in assists while not even being top 50 for Time Per Possession. He is legit breaking the system haha.

[Infinite Llamas]

i told you Jokic would win the next 5 MVPs because he benefits from the PER formula and he's got a good team. Once Denver becomes a top 2 team in the west you have no choice but give to him.

Efficient big men that spend most of their time in the paint scoring easy baskets generally have a high PER. But if you can’t tell the difference between Jokic and Hassan Whiteside, I don’t even know where to start…

[Infinite Llamas]

I just want to say we are half way through the season and Jokic is currently 0.2 assists shy of averaging a 25ppg triple double and currently is at a 69.8 TS%... And he's not slowing down. His last 17 games hes averaging essentially 26/12/11 on 71 TS%. His TS% right now is 12% higher than the league average. We are looking at a legit chance of a 70TS% triple double.

And just to add onto how different he is. Giannis, Luka and Joel all have a USG% of at least 38% and theyre the top 3 in the league. Ill throw in Tatum's as well at 33% (7th in the league). Jokic is currently 31st in the league in USG% with 27%. Then you can mention he is 2nd in the league in assists while not even being top 50 for Time Per Possession. He is legit breaking the system haha.

Kuzma and Jalen Green have higher USG rates…

Jokic is only 18 assists away from having the most in the NBA and with Hali hurt, he might surpass him soon.

[Cubbies2120]

i told you Jokic would win the next 5 MVPs because he benefits from the PER formula and he's got a good team. Once Denver becomes a top 2 team in the west you have no choice but give to him.

Yeah, PER formula is responsible for performances like last night missing one shot in a 36 point triple double. PER formula is also why his true shooting percentage is insane (the same TS% that Curry was turning heads with in his 2016 campaign, Jokic is blowing out of the water).

[Duke4life831]

I just want to say we are half way through the season and Jokic is currently 0.2 assists shy of averaging a 25ppg triple double and currently is at a 69.8 TS%... And he's not slowing down. His last 17 games hes averaging essentially 26/12/11 on 71 TS%. His TS% right now is 12% higher than the league average. We are looking at a legit chance of a 70TS% triple double.

And just to add onto how different he is. Giannis, Luka and Joel all have a USG% of at least 38% and theyre the top 3 in the league. Ill throw in Tatum's as well at 33% (7th in the league). Jokic is currently 31st in the league in USG% with 27%. Then you can mention he is 2nd in the league in assists while not even being top 50 for Time Per Possession. He is legit breaking the system haha.

Kuzma and Jalen Green have higher USG rates…

Jokic is only 18 assists away from having the most in the NBA and with Hali hurt, he might surpass him soon.

Ya his numbers just dont make sense haha. Oh he's a top 15 scorer and top 2 in assists, he must have a super high USG% and Time Per Possession. Nope. Oh he's flirting with leading the league in TS% with 70 TS%, he must be a low volume dunk only big. Nope.

As an unashamed Duke homer and Tatum being one of my favorite Duke guys in the past decade, I would love to see him win and I would love to throw some bias arguments on why he should win it. On paper Tatum is checking off every box for a legit MVP season. I just cant. Because it seems like every time I watch Jokic play Im just dumbfounded on what I just watched. Its crazy to say because all the advanced stats paint him in such a dominant fashion, but I feel like even those dont do him justice. Jokic is just on a different level right now and every game is a must watch.