Is Pascal Siakam an empty stats guy?

[Vampirate]

If Siakam is so good and OG is so good, and Barnes is so good, why are the Raps so mediocre?

Well Siakam is pretty good, but he's a 2nd option at best or a 3rd option at worst, depending on how you view him.

OG is a great role player, his value is on the defensive end mainly. He can have some great scoring games but he's a 4th option pretty much.

Barnes was in a huge slump until late December, he was playing injured, and his offense still needs refinement and other teams have a scouting report on him.

FVV the guy you aren't mentioning is going through the worst year in his career. To put this into perspective he's recently had 2 great scoring games and his FG% is at 38.4, his 3P% is at 33.4. This is one of the few guys that's supposed to be at least shooting the 3 ball well, he isn't doing that.

In general our 5th starting position is a mess, we have GTJ, but if his shot isn't on he's useless. Every single other player really just puts the Raptors going on 4 on 5.

We also have a really bad bench.

Nick Nurse is pretty much Thibs 2.0 as he will run starters into the ground. The Raptors have 3 players in the top 5 in minutes.

Add this all up and it's makes for a bad season for our record.

Ultimately we are relying on an All Star, offensive role player, sophomore, a 6Ft shooting guard that's seriously declining and really not much to say for our 5th starter. And then of course there's our bench.

[knicksNOTslick]

You mean like how the Warriors were under .500?! That's because Steph sucks & is overrated right?! How about Dame with his team below .500?! Both guys have had FAR healthier supporting casts and played less than handfull of games less than Siakam this season ummm but that's different right??

Another fun fact Warriors starters have played 24 games together, Blazers 23 games together....Raptors 16 (that's right only 1/3 of the season they've played together)

Hmm...would you like to be further exposed?!

I mean I don't even care about you talking about Randle, yes we know he's overrated & glad you see that too but what teams will offer is not based on what fans say but other executives and it's already been leaked by a thousand media members that teams will pay that price. That's what happens for all-NBA players, wish with your players you could understand but you stay butthurt while I stick to facts over feelings lol FYL bing bong! lol

This narrative about the Raptors being decimated by injuries. Every team goes through injuries. Your team is not special. No reason for Toronto to have their record with the so-called talent that they have. Injuries is a cop out.

Siakam just isn't that good. Can't lead a team to the playoffs but their players can net multiple unprotected picks.

Another weak af response lol but at this point expected.

Explain Steph & Dame....their teams are struggling, yet both guys have had their starting lineups 7-8 MORE games together.

Seriously let's get a good laugh while you try & justify it. I'll wait lol

Starting lineup changes don't mean much when the player out is overrated. Steph out is worth a lot more than Barnes being out. It's all about the context. Raptors have played teams without their best players too. You play who you play. Injury excuses are for superstars. Like KD on the Nets being out, that makes a big difference. Even Middleton being out, actual game changers. But Scottie Barnes being out, it's not the same.

[YogurtProducer]

The team with Siakam, VanVleet, OG, Barnes and Gary Trent has a worse record than the team with Randle, Brunson, RJ, Grimes and IQ…but this thread is telling me Siakam is better than the Knicks’ best players?

Almost like having a bench is important or something, and when you have limited depth injuries are going to be even more devastating than other teams.

Raptors offense gets 9 points worse when Siakam sits.

There is not a single player 1 for 1 Toronto would accept for Siakam and not a player the Knicks would keep untouchable for Siakam. Hell, I am not sure the Raptors would swap anyone for Siakam, OG, or Barnes for on your roster. Our record due to factors outside those 3's control doesn't mean they are no good.

[knicksNOTslick]

If Siakam is so good and OG is so good, and Barnes is so good, why are the Raps so mediocre?

Well Siakam is pretty good, but he's a 2nd option at best or a 3rd option at worst, depending on how you view him.

OG is a great role player, his value is on the defensive end mainly. He can have some great scoring games but he's a 4th option pretty much.

Barnes was in a huge slump until late December, he was playing injured, and his offense still needs refinement and other teams have a scouting report on him.

FVV the guy you aren't mentioning is going through the worst year in his career. To put this into perspective he's recently had 2 great scoring games and his FG% is at 38.4, his 3P% is at 33.4. This is one of the few guys that's supposed to be at least shooting the 3 ball well, he isn't doing that.

In general our 5th starting position is a mess, we have GTJ, but if his shot isn't on he's useless. Every single other player really just puts the Raptors going on 4 on 5.

We also have a really bad bench.

Nick Nurse is pretty much Thibs 2.0 as he will run starters into the ground. The Raptors have 3 players in the top 5 in minutes.

Add this all up and it's makes for a bad season for our record.

Ultimately we are relying on an All Star, offensive role player, sophomore, a 6Ft shooting guard that's seriously declining and really not much to say for our 5th starter. And then of course there's our bench.

Thank you. This proves my point. The roster is overrated and no way should their players get multiple unprotected first rounders like the so called reports and what a lot of Raptor fans believe. That's all I wanted to say.

[YogurtProducer]

No, but he's more of a 2nd option on a championship team.

He would be the perfect fit next to Luka.

This is the best take on Siakam. He is a great player, but outside of like 8 guys in the entire NBA he is better suited to be a 2nd option. Nothing to be ashamed about there and he is still a player who has almost no holes in his game. Like a poor mans Lebron really.

[PhilBlackson]

If Siakam is so good and OG is so good, and Barnes is so good, why are the Raps so mediocre?

Could be something to do with the team being decimated with injuries for the first 2-3 months of the season, each starter has missed chunks of the season at different times & at times overlapping, our 2 best bench players haven't played (Achuiwa just rejoined less than a week ago, Otto never played or will this season) while their 2 best perimeter shooters are shooting career lows (those aren't any of the names you mentioned)?! Albeit the primary ballhandler, Fred has been stubbornly playing with back/hip injuries over the last year as he refuses to rest in order to in his mind "secure the bag" while shooting some of the worst percentages in the league, OG was out with a broken finger on his shooting hand so now playing through that & nevermind countless trade rumours swirling around while we have 2 UFAs and a non-existent bench...so yeah could have something to do with THAT part lol

Surely a Nets' fans can understand not living up to expectations?!?

You guys lost to the Hawks who were missing Capela and Bogi on a back to back while the Raps were healthy. Then you lost to the Bucks missing Giannis and Middleton and Lopez in the 4th while the Raptors were healthy. Injuries are just an excuse, something is not working with this team.

Factor this for any team...

1. The starters have only played 1/3 of the season together, many times it was multiple starters out
2. To compound that their 2 best bench players hadn't played AT ALL, none existent bench
3. Your best player missed nearly 1/4 of the season
4. Your starting PG has had back/hip issues stemming back to the previous season that ended his Playoffs that he did not seek surgery on but elected to play through it and is shooting THE FG% in the league, while you're 2nd best is also at a career low
5. Both them are UFAs playing for contracts
6. Endless trade rumours floating around while the team just maybe 2 weeks ago starting having their starters together with any regularity

That's a lot to deal with and especially when much of that is out of the 3 players who are in question, 1 of which having a career season (Pascal) and another in running for DPOY but you're questioning them without any context?! lol It's ridiculous. Choosing to ignore literally a multitude of issues happening because of "derp eXcUSes" doesn't fly.

Yeah this team got killed by injuries early, has no rhythm, guys playing for contracts (one who really shouldn't be) & just overloaded with trade rumours, it's likely not gonna be a pretty picture for any team and I won't even get into those specific games because teams drop games to shortmanned teams all the time. But there's just so much going on, that choosing to ignore it is just being a wilfully ignorant fool and yeah it's not really a surprise the team has & is so off all things actually considered.

[knicksNOTslick]

The team with Siakam, VanVleet, OG, Barnes and Gary Trent has a worse record than the team with Randle, Brunson, RJ, Grimes and IQ…but this thread is telling me Siakam is better than the Knicks’ best players?

Almost like having a bench is important or something, and when you have limited depth injuries are going to be even more devastating than other teams.

Raptors offense gets 9 points worse when Siakam sits.

There is not a single player 1 for 1 Toronto would accept for Siakam and not a player the Knicks would keep untouchable for Siakam. Hell, I am not sure the Raptors would swap anyone for Siakam, OG, or Barnes for on your roster. Our record due to factors outside those 3's control doesn't mean they are no good.

This is the delusion I'm trying to point out. Please someone explain to me why these players are so good on a sub .500 team? You're saying these 3 players are so good and much better than the Knicks best players but they somehow couldn't affect the outcome of their team to win more games than they lose. And it's because of factors outside of their control? Seems to me like they're not as good as they seem.

[PhilBlackson]

This narrative about the Raptors being decimated by injuries. Every team goes through injuries. Your team is not special. No reason for Toronto to have their record with the so-called talent that they have. Injuries is a cop out.

Siakam just isn't that good. Can't lead a team to the playoffs but their players can net multiple unprotected picks.

Another weak af response lol but at this point expected.

Explain Steph & Dame....their teams are struggling, yet both guys have had their starting lineups 7-8 MORE games together.

Seriously let's get a good laugh while you try & justify it. I'll wait lol

Starting lineup changes don't mean much when the player out is overrated. Steph out is worth a lot more than Barnes being out. It's all about the context. Raptors have played teams without their best players too. You play who you play. Injury excuses are for superstars. Like KD on the Nets being out, that makes a big difference. Even Middleton being out, actual game changers. But Scottie Barnes being out, it's not the same.

Yet again my illiterate friend, answer the question.

SIAKAM aka the team's best player (not your strawman Scottie comments) has only missed less than a handful of games less than Steph & Dame have YET both Steph & Dame actually played together with all their other starters SEVEN TO EIGHT MORE GAMES (which only speaks to health of the supporting casts each have had), why have they struggled?! Surely that should have 7-8 more Ws AT LEAST, since they're so superior you would think more than that right??? Again I'll wait..lol

But you have nothing better than your usual "derp no facts, just say Scottie Barnes derp derp, it's not like KD" lol do better.

[knicksNOTslick]

Another weak af response lol but at this point expected.

Explain Steph & Dame....their teams are struggling, yet both guys have had their starting lineups 7-8 MORE games together.

Seriously let's get a good laugh while you try & justify it. I'll wait lol

Starting lineup changes don't mean much when the player out is overrated. Steph out is worth a lot more than Barnes being out. It's all about the context. Raptors have played teams without their best players too. You play who you play. Injury excuses are for superstars. Like KD on the Nets being out, that makes a big difference. Even Middleton being out, actual game changers. But Scottie Barnes being out, it's not the same.

Yet again my illiterate friend, answer the question.

SIAKAM aka the team's best player (not your strawman Scottie comments) has only missed less than a handful of games less tham Steph & Dame have YET both Steph & Dame actually played together with all their other starters SEVEN TO EIGHT MORE GAMES (which only speaks to health of the supporting casts each have had).

But you have nothing better than your usual "derp no facts, just say Scottie Barnes derp derp, it's not like KD" lol do better.

You listed like 100 excuses why the Raptors are doing bad. Excuses, excuses. That's all they are. How about they're just not that good?

[bronxknicksfan1]

The team with Siakam, VanVleet, OG, Barnes and Gary Trent has a worse record than the team with Randle, Brunson, RJ, Grimes and IQ…but this thread is telling me Siakam is better than the Knicks’ best players?

Almost like having a bench is important or something, and when you have limited depth injuries are going to be even more devastating than other teams.

Raptors offense gets 9 points worse when Siakam sits.

There is not a single player 1 for 1 Toronto would accept for Siakam and not a player the Knicks would keep untouchable for Siakam. Hell, I am not sure the Raptors would swap anyone for Siakam, OG, or Barnes for on your roster. Our record due to factors outside those 3's control doesn't mean they are no good.

If the Knicks’ bench wasn’t absolutely horrific this year, you’d have a point there. Randle, Brunson and RJ have been playing 40+ min many times this season, especially recently because the bench is underwhelming.

And considering how flawed all those players are, I’m fine with the Knicks not trading for them. If they were truly worth what your management thought they were, they would’ve been traded by now. Rather deal with our flawed players that are leading us to a winning record.

[anotherhomer]

pascal is a great player, in the 12-20 range of players

needs a closer at end of game though

[Vampirate]

If Siakam is so good and OG is so good, and Barnes is so good, why are the Raps so mediocre?

Well Siakam is pretty good, but he's a 2nd option at best or a 3rd option at worst, depending on how you view him.

OG is a great role player, his value is on the defensive end mainly. He can have some great scoring games but he's a 4th option pretty much.

Barnes was in a huge slump until late December, he was playing injured, and his offense still needs refinement and other teams have a scouting report on him.

FVV the guy you aren't mentioning is going through the worst year in his career. To put this into perspective he's recently had 2 great scoring games and his FG% is at 38.4, his 3P% is at 33.4. This is one of the few guys that's supposed to be at least shooting the 3 ball well, he isn't doing that.

In general our 5th starting position is a mess, we have GTJ, but if his shot isn't on he's useless. Every single other player really just puts the Raptors going on 4 on 5.

We also have a really bad bench.

Nick Nurse is pretty much Thibs 2.0 as he will run starters into the ground. The Raptors have 3 players in the top 5 in minutes.

Add this all up and it's makes for a bad season for our record.

Ultimately we are relying on an All Star, offensive role player, sophomore, a 6Ft shooting guard that's seriously declining and really not much to say for our 5th starter. And then of course there's our bench.

Thank you. This proves my point. The roster is overrated and no way should their players get multiple unprotected first rounders like the so called reports and what a lot of Raptor fans believe. That's all I wanted to say.

The entire Roster has issues, but as for the Raptors asking for 2 first round picks for OG, that's just negotiations 101. You ask for the moon first. To the Raptors at least OG is really valuable and it would take multiple firsts to make Masai to consider moving him right now.

As for Siakam, it'd take way more than 2 firsts to land him. I've seen you rag on him compared to your players, but you're honestly saying if the Raptors were dumb enough to do a 1 for 1 swap of Siakam for Randle, you'd turn it down?

Siakam himself isn't overrated, as long as your not viewing him as a championship #1 type option, he's a #2 most likely now.

The biggest difference between the Raptors/Knicks last year and this year is, last year FVV was easily better that what you had at PG. Randle was also very bad.

This year Randle is good, but if you guys had this years FVV instead of Brunson you'd be where we are at pretty much. Brunson was pretty much your best move in a while. On the other hand FVV has likely played his last season with us.

[wegotthabeet]

hes a 3rd or 4th option.

He was literally the 2nd option on a championship team

Lowry was the 2nd best player on that squad.

perhaps, but Siakam was still the number two option on offense.

1st option: Leonard
2nd option: Siakam
lead distributor/playmaker: Lowry
rim protector & secondary playmaker: Gasol
rotation: Green, Ibaka, Vanvleet, Powell, (OG)

every team needs those eight or nine pieces to win a championship.

[payton2kemp]

Could be something to do with the team being decimated with injuries for the first 2-3 months of the season, each starter has missed chunks of the season at different times & at times overlapping, our 2 best bench players haven't played (Achuiwa just rejoined less than a week ago, Otto never played or will this season) while their 2 best perimeter shooters are shooting career lows (those aren't any of the names you mentioned)?! Albeit the primary ballhandler, Fred has been stubbornly playing with back/hip injuries over the last year as he refuses to rest in order to in his mind "secure the bag" while shooting some of the worst percentages in the league, OG was out with a broken finger on his shooting hand so now playing through that & nevermind countless trade rumours swirling around while we have 2 UFAs and a non-existent bench...so yeah could have something to do with THAT part lol

Surely a Nets' fans can understand not living up to expectations?!?

You guys lost to the Hawks who were missing Capela and Bogi on a back to back while the Raps were healthy. Then you lost to the Bucks missing Giannis and Middleton and Lopez in the 4th while the Raptors were healthy. Injuries are just an excuse, something is not working with this team.

Factor this for any team...

1. The starters have only played 1/3 of the season together, many times it was multiple starters out
2. To compound that their 2 best bench players hadn't played AT ALL, none existent bench
3. Your best player missed nearly 1/4 of the season
4. Your starting PG has had back/hip issues stemming back to the previous season that ended his Playoffs that he did not seek surgery on but elected to play through it and is shooting THE FG% in the league, while you're 2nd best is also at a career low
5. Both them are UFAs playing for contracts
6. Endless trade rumours floating around while the team just maybe 2 weeks ago starting having their starters together with any regularity

That's a lot to deal with and especially when much of that is out of the 3 players who are in question, 1 of which having a career season (Pascal) and another in running for DPOY but you're questioning them without any context?! lol It's ridiculous. Choosing to ignore literally a multitude of issues happening because of "derp eXcUSes" doesn't fly.

Yeah this team got killed by injuries early, has no rhythm, guys playing for contracts (one who really shouldn't be) & just overloaded with trade rumours, it's likely not gonna be a pretty picture for any team and I won't even get into those specific games because teams drop games to shortmanned teams all the time. But there's just so much going on, that choosing to ignore it is just being a wilfully ignorant fool and yeah it's not really a surprise the team has & is so off all things actually considered.

just a long list of excuses. Every team has issues, injuries etc. If the core is so good why is everyone on the Raptors board begging for a tank?

[One Last Shot]

wtf did i just read.

Based on impact stats. Danny Green is a bit of a darling in these stats. Even when shooting poorly he manages to contribute to winning on the floor with his gravity and defense.

What a terrible take. Danny Green was an active liability in the playoffs for the Raptors - he was brutal and almost cost a few pivotal games with his inability to dribble leading to crunch time turnovers.

Show some respect to Danny. Without him taking out Klay in Game 6 of NBA Finals, there's a good chance Raptors didn't won that championship.

[Duke4life831]

Siakam is a really good #2, dont think he is a legit #1 guy though. One thing that I have noticed watching TOR games so far this year and TOR fans feel free to correct me if Im way off on this, he seems to be a no show on defense this year. One of his calling cards for so many years was his 2 way ability. I also wont lie, its not like TOR has been high up on my watch list this year and probably have only seen around 8-10 games, so I couldve easily just seen the games where he hasnt shown up. But ya so far I havent seen anything close to the level of defender he was when he wasnt the #1 option.

I think ideally Siakam is a really good #2 or an elite #3. Also with that he should hopefully focus on not putting all his effort on the offensive end and can go back to that 2 way guy.

[crossroads]

Obviously this is a disappointing season, but there is enough track record from Pascal as the Raptors #1 to dispell the notion of him being an empty stats guy

In his first season as teams #1 the Raps were 53-19, and Siakam was 2nd team All-NBA

Last season he lead the Raptors to a 48-34 5th seed, made 3rd team All-NBA

In between was a very disappointing/eventual tank season, and now a pretty disappointing year this year for team success

I think it points to a very good player who isn't at the level of the superstars, so while he can operate well enough in that heliocentric role, the results and efficiency can be more scatter shot over a long sample size. This year's team especially lacks any secondary creation with FVV struggling much of the year to get buckets.

The workload on offense definitely lowers Siakam's defensive efforts. I'd say not being the same level of natural scorer as the Lukas/Tatums/LeBrons of the world, it takes more energy and work for every bucket

I'd still argue he's a top 15-20 player but the talent level in the league is so high now I won't argue too hard against anyone putting him a bit lower


Sent from my SM-A526W using RealGM mobile app

[leolozon]

If only there was a way to get him to Dallas… Doncic in Toronto would be perfect, even if the shooting is a bit lacking.

[Quattro]

No, his stats are inflated a little compared to where they would be ideally, but that's because the Raps are just desperate for offense.

If anything, his stats are under inflated. The guy is somehow averaging 6.5 APG on a team that can't hit the side of a barn from 10 feet away on most nights and opposing teams key on him defensively every single night because who else do you have to worry about consistently on this team?

[brutalitops]

hes a 3rd or 4th option.

Was literally the second best player on a championship team and then got better