Is Pascal Siakam an empty stats guy?

[TravisScott55]

If Siakam is so good and OG is so good, and Barnes is so good, why are the Raps so mediocre?

Because the fit of 3 of them is poor. Not enough spacing. 1 or 2 of them need to go.

[Jadoogar]

Based on impact stats. Danny Green is a bit of a darling in these stats. Even when shooting poorly he manages to contribute to winning on the floor with his gravity and defense.

What a terrible take. Danny Green was an active liability in the playoffs for the Raptors - he was brutal and almost cost a few pivotal games with his inability to dribble leading to crunch time turnovers.

That's the statistics. A few plays don't balance a game. Every play matters at all times.

are you seriously arguing Danny Green was more important than Siakam in 2019?

[brutalitops]

He's not a great passer, or a reliable 3p

thats...about it, Good rebounder, excellent defender, absolute crafty with the ball, You would want to surround him with 1-2 good shooters and a good playmaker,

BUT they have FVV who's having a shocker year, OG who is hitting 36% on defence disrespecting the raps 3 ball, Barnes who operates in the same space as what Pascal wants and cant shoot, making him a terrible idea for a small ball 5 and Gary Trent Jr who is as well, having a rough year and finding it hard to operate

**** Depth, Some sort of weird hope Scotty Barnes would become an all star in his second year (He's in his second year, give him time) OG, its just a big clogged for the raptors, Pascal is a bad dude

Run it forward if Barnes could make open 3's, FVV had confidence, you had another SG and a bloke like Gary Trent Jr off the bench, and even a Center who didn't yo-yo from amazing bench big to walking fouling fumbling big the team would be something else

[brutalitops]

What a terrible take. Danny Green was an active liability in the playoffs for the Raptors - he was brutal and almost cost a few pivotal games with his inability to dribble leading to crunch time turnovers.

That's the statistics. A few plays don't balance a game. Every play matters at all times.

are you seriously arguing Danny Green was more important than Siakam in 2019?

Yeah, Its nuts. Played defence in good spurts, Also was just painful to watch in a lot of games

[JayMKE]

Yeah his role on offense in Toronto the last few years have been bigger than you'd want but Siakam is awesome & I'd love to have him on the Bucks.

[Quattro]

With all the losing, horrible shortsighted moves, and general dysfunction over the last 15+ years, I sometimes forget why I can't stand the Knicks. Then I read some of the comments from their fans in a thread like this when their team is what, 4 or 5 games over .500 half way through the season, and it all comes flooding back.

[Duffman100]

This thread is hilarious.

[Prestige]

Everybody is an empty stats guy when their team stinks.

[PierceFan4ever]

If Siakam is so good and OG is so good, and Barnes is so good, why are the Raps so mediocre?

Some of the Raptors fans here were claiming the raptors have equal talent to the Celtics late into the season last year. They overrate their own players more than anyone especially OG lol

[gpoon]

No, his stats are inflated a little compared to where they would be ideally, but that's because the Raps are just desperate for offense.

More like deflated, if the other raps could hit an open shot even at decent percentage his assists would be off the charts.

[NBA Sheady]

If Siakam is so good and OG is so good, and Barnes is so good, why are the Raps so mediocre?

No point guard
No center
No bench

[Bum Adebayo]

I can say this, he is not a ceiling raiser

[TroubleS0me]

we need to stop these empty stats thread

[duppyy]

He's a 2nd fiddle being forced to play as the main guy.

He's not a top15 player and never will be, he's prone to disappearing like Houdini.

[ATLTimekeeper]

The offense drops like 9 points when he sits, so they go from a very good offense to a nightmare when he's resting, and he plays a lot. He's a difficult match-up cover and his passing is good but not great, but you can say that about a lot of primary option wings like Tatum, Kawhi, Booker, PG13. He's more of a Robin, but this year he doesn't have a Robin. He has a bunch of Alfreds and Commissioner Gordons.

Defensively his effort is not always there and he's not the toughest, but he can crank it up when he needs to. He'll never be a playoff defensive liability that can be picked on, imo.

[mademan]

Siakam hasn’t been better than either this season. They’re all around the same level right now if anything.

If Siakam was truly better, the Craptors wouldn’t be 15-20 with the talent on that roster. They’ve been underachieving heavily.

ya he has and its not even arguable. By literally zero measure has either been better than Siakam. And if youre gonna use wins, why not argue that Brunson has been better than Curry too, lol

By zero measure? Basketball reference is your friend with any measure you need. Siakam and Randle are basically neck and neck in damn near every stat. Siakam’s per game and advanced stats are on par with both Randle and Brunson. He hasn’t been that special this year.

As for Steph, his team is above .500 when he plays. So, there’s that.

Basketball reference is your friend. You can look up and down at every advanced metric and Siakam is >Brunson or Randle

[MemphisX]

NBA discourse has really fallen on its ass. Now the #2 guy on a title team is an empty stat guy while people are praising guys utting up numbers on lottery teams. smfh.

[ChumboChappati]

Not at all

Edit: to expand further. He was great in the playoffs in '19 and had a great strech last year to go from a non all star to a well worthy All NBA player.

he got lucky in 2019 that prime Kawhi was his teammate

[YogurtProducer]

The team with Siakam, VanVleet, OG, Barnes and Gary Trent has a worse record than the team with Randle, Brunson, RJ, Grimes and IQ…but this thread is telling me Siakam is better than the Knicks’ best players?

Almost like having a bench is important or something, and when you have limited depth injuries are going to be even more devastating than other teams.

Raptors offense gets 9 points worse when Siakam sits.

There is not a single player 1 for 1 Toronto would accept for Siakam and not a player the Knicks would keep untouchable for Siakam. Hell, I am not sure the Raptors would swap anyone for Siakam, OG, or Barnes for on your roster. Our record due to factors outside those 3's control doesn't mean they are no good.

If the Knicks’ bench wasn’t absolutely horrific this year, you’d have a point there. Randle, Brunson and RJ have been playing 40+ min many times this season, especially recently because the bench is underwhelming.

And considering how flawed all those players are, I’m fine with the Knicks not trading for them. If they were truly worth what your management thought they were, they would’ve been traded by now. Rather deal with our flawed players that are leading us to a winning record.

This is a lot of talk from a fan of a team who has not won a playoff series in a decade

If you are incapable of using some nuance to understand the issues with the Raptors, then IDK what to tell you. Next you are going to tell me that all the Knicks players are better than Lebron and AD simply due to team record, right?

The Raptors players are certainly better than their record:

1. Individually the Raptors smoke the Knicks in top end talent. The Raptors starting lineup is not a great fit (a non-shooter in Barnes, two average shooters in Siakam/OG, and 2 good shooters having horrible years from 3 in FVV/GTJ),

2. We have a very poor bench, and our best bench guys (Precious/Otto) have played a combined 29 games.

3. As we have little to no depth (not Siakam, Barnes, OG, etc. fault), when those guys miss times we are often stuck starting guys like Koloko, Juancho Hernangomez, Thad Young, etc. - aka guys who are not even rotation quality. This is very important when you consider that our top 7 (starters + Otto/Precious) have missed a combined 56 games (plus 37 from Otto). We simply just do not have the ability to withstand any injuries as most of our current youth just has been bad. Malachi Flynn shoots 36% on 2 point shots.

If you are going to retort with ReCoRd (which also ignores our 48 wins last year with the same 5 guys while NYK was at home watching the playoffs), then just do not bother responding please.

[tsherkin]

If Siakam is so good and OG is so good, and Barnes is so good, why are the Raps so mediocre?

I understand you're asking a disingenuous question to begin with, but still...

The Raptors play too slow and don't defend well, have had a pile of injuries and have a thin bench. They underutilize the 3, are the second-worst in the league at finishing shots and are worst in eFG%. They lean too heavily on VanVleet, who has been crap this year when he has been healthy and Siakam is as close to an efficient scorer as they have in their starting lineup and he's 0.2% below league average at the moment.

He's not a particularly good shooter past about 15 feet and is highly inconsistent from 3, but he finishes well in close, draws fouls well and is an excellent passer. He's also not super healthy. We're asking him to shoot too much at the moment, but it's not like we have any other options.

OG is nothing special on offense at the moment and has value more for his defense and the fact that he is a competent 3pt shooter. He is unremarkable offensively otherwise.

Barnes is potential. He's a 21 year-old, 2nd-year player who can't shoot and can't draw fouls at the moment, but has intriguing potential due to his ball-handling and passing abilities at size. The Raps are playing a longer game with him and hoping to see development, but he's brutal in terms of scoring efficiency and range and so forth at the moment.