Offensively, which aspects is Dirk better than Jokic?

[dygaction]

For discussion

[Gooner]

Shooting obviously.

[tsherkin]

Shooting obviously.

Is it obvious? Certainly not shooting below the arc, that clearly favors Jokic. FT shooting, sure. So far, also 3pt shooting over Jokic's career to date. But not on long twos to any meaningful degree, definitely not on middies, and of course Jokic crushes him anywhere in closer.

So yeah, not so much "obviously."

[frica]

Dribbling, quickness, FT shooting, 3pt shooting.
Off-ball movement?
Turnover economy?

[Gooner]

Shooting obviously.

Is it obvious? Certainly not shooting below the arc, that clearly favors Jokic. FT shooting, sure. So far, also 3pt shooting over Jokic's career to date. But not on long twos to any meaningful degree, definitely not on middies, and of course Jokic crushes him anywhere in closer.

So yeah, not so much "obviously."

Dirk was a mid range master, definitely better than Jokic.

[eminence]

Shooting obviously.

Is it obvious? Certainly not shooting below the arc, that clearly favors Jokic. FT shooting, sure. So far, also 3pt shooting over Jokic's career to date. But not on long twos to any meaningful degree, definitely not on middies, and of course Jokic crushes him anywhere in closer.

So yeah, not so much "obviously."

I think you could argue based on how the league defends the shots today vs mid 00s Dirk does clearly have an advantage on long 2s.

[Gooner]

Shooting obviously.

Is it obvious? Certainly not shooting below the arc, that clearly favors Jokic. FT shooting, sure. So far, also 3pt shooting over Jokic's career to date. But not on long twos to any meaningful degree, definitely not on middies, and of course Jokic crushes him anywhere in closer.

So yeah, not so much "obviously."

I think you could argue based on how the league defends the shots today vs mid 00s Dirk does clearly have an advantage on long 2s.

100%. The league doesn't care about mid range anymore.

[eminence]

Anywho, I'd say shooting from range and more limited turnovers would be the main things for me. He was physically quicker as well, but I don't see it manifesting in anything in particular. I could see an argument for Dirk being a bit better off-ball mover, but Jokic is an odd off-ball guy in that his passing lets his movement translate in a way most players doesn't.

[Colbinii]

Anywho, I'd say shooting from range and more limited turnovers would be the main things for me. He was physically quicker as well, but I don't see it manifesting in anything in particular. I could see an argument for Dirk being a bit better off-ball mover, but Jokic is an odd off-ball guy in that his passing lets his movement translate in a way most players doesn't.

Limited Turnovers isn't really something that makes Dirk better considering the amount of passing/playmaking Jokic does compared to Dirk.

Dirk turned the ball over less than Jokic but I don't see anything here pointing to Dirk being more effective which to me doesn't make being less turnover prone as a positive, rather the role Dirk played was a less turnover prone role than that of Jokic.

[70sFan]

Midrange shooting probably, maybe isolation scorer (probably not)?

Nothing else really.

[eminence]

Anywho, I'd say shooting from range and more limited turnovers would be the main things for me. He was physically quicker as well, but I don't see it manifesting in anything in particular. I could see an argument for Dirk being a bit better off-ball mover, but Jokic is an odd off-ball guy in that his passing lets his movement translate in a way most players doesn't.

Limited Turnovers isn't really something that makes Dirk better considering the amount of passing/playmaking Jokic does compared to Dirk.

Dirk turned the ball over less than Jokic but I don't see anything here pointing to Dirk being more effective which to me doesn't make being less turnover prone as a positive, rather the role Dirk played was a less turnover prone role than that of Jokic.

Oh, the absolute number is mostly about role. But accounting for role I still think Jokic is a bit more turnover prone than Dirk was.

[tsherkin]

Dirk was a mid range master, definitely better than Jokic.

Nah, the strength of that language is just too inaccurate and disrespectful to what Jokic is accomplishing.

I think you could argue based on how the league defends the shots today vs mid 00s Dirk does clearly have an advantage on long 2s.

I don't agree with that, no. Jokic isn't just randomly hitting nothing but open shots with no where near him on his long twos. There are certainly a couple seasons around the Mavs title where it becomes very interesting, of course, because Dirk is one of the handful of best mid-range shooters in league history. Like, short-list of maybe five, off the top of my head. So he was definitely amazing, but on the balance of his career, very similar to Jokic on shots that weren't defended that much differently. Jokic is good enough on those shots that teams don't just cede the point with him, particularly since he doesn't step back for the 3 all that regularly to begin with and because he's a passing hub as much as a scoring threat, so they need to cover him for a variety of reasons.

100%. The league doesn't care about mid range anymore.

This is an expected oversimplification. The league does not play like the 2015 Rockets. There is less priority on mid-range shots, for sure, but it very much not the case that no one cares about the mid-range anymore.

[capfan33]

Jokic is significantly better from 3-10 generally, Dirk is a decent amount better from 10+. I think people are underselling Dirk's midrange volume and shot-creating ability. But otherwise, basically all Jokic. (Also, Dirk is a bit better at foul drawing)

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Mid range shooting and, at his age, the ability to put the ball on floor and attack.
As good as Jokic has been, only Durant ever had the combination of volume and efficiency.

[Doctor MJ]

Shooting obviously.

Is it obvious? Certainly not shooting below the arc, that clearly favors Jokic. FT shooting, sure. So far, also 3pt shooting over Jokic's career to date. But not on long twos to any meaningful degree, definitely not on middies, and of course Jokic crushes him anywhere in closer.

So yeah, not so much "obviously."

I think you could argue based on how the league defends the shots today vs mid 00s Dirk does clearly have an advantage on long 2s.

Are we sure this really makes a difference for guys at extreme height?

I don't think there's any doubt that it's easier for smaller guys not to get their midrange shots blocked in today's game, and thus you cannot say that a guy with the same FG% from the midrange now is doing something as hard as it was back in the day, but I'm not sure it really makes a difference for tall guys.

Now, I'm sure that the spacing of today's game makes it easier for tall guys not to get the ball stolen in the midrange, so that part is easier, but just shooting-wise, I'm not so sure.

I then look at bkref's shooting split percentages and find myself thinking that if what Jokic is doing this year is something he can sustain going forward, there's real reason to ask whether Jokic has surpassed Dirk on this front. I wouldn't feel comfortable making that leap yet, but it's something that I think we've got to be ready to see as a real possibility.

Dirk will still have arguments for shooting overall even if this is the case, but yeah, shooting is what made Dirk special, and Jokic has become so good at it that even though Jokic can't possibly be as good at shooting as he is at passing, he may erase Dirk's advantage in the comparison.

(Dirk also has a mobility edge which is not nothing, but also not really a key strength for Dirk compared to other stars.)

[scrabbarista]

This isn't comparing the two as apples-to-apples, but I think Dirk having center size and being able to space the floor as well as he could was a much bigger advantage, relative to other teams, in his era than it would be today. (Although, today it would be stretched to its furthest raw advantage: it's not as though Dirk would play exactly the same if you put him in this era.) It was revolutionary. Think of something like Curry's impact (impact for his team, I mean; not league-wide impact). As a shooter/rebounder he was a one of one during his best decade.

[magicman1978]

Is it obvious? Certainly not shooting below the arc, that clearly favors Jokic. FT shooting, sure. So far, also 3pt shooting over Jokic's career to date. But not on long twos to any meaningful degree, definitely not on middies, and of course Jokic crushes him anywhere in closer.

So yeah, not so much "obviously."

I think you could argue based on how the league defends the shots today vs mid 00s Dirk does clearly have an advantage on long 2s.

Are we sure this really makes a difference for guys at extreme height?

I don't think there's any doubt that it's easier for smaller guys not to get their midrange shots blocked in today's game, and thus you cannot say that a guy with the same FG% from the midrange now is doing something as hard as it was back in the day, but I'm not sure it really makes a difference for tall guys.

Now, I'm sure that the spacing of today's game makes it easier for tall guys not to get the ball stolen in the midrange, so that part is easier, but just shooting-wise, I'm not so sure.

I then look at bkref's shooting split percentages and find myself thinking that if what Jokic is doing this year is something he can sustain going forward, there's real reason to ask whether Jokic has surpassed Dirk on this front. I wouldn't feel comfortable making that leap yet, but it's something that I think we've got to be ready to see as a real possibility.

Wouldn't we need to weigh volume heavily into that? From shots 10+ feet out to 3, Jokic this year has taken 2.3 FGA per game with 1.4 FGM making around 60%. On tightly guarded shots, he's 0.4/0.8 for 48.6%. Only data we have for Dirk is when he was outside of his prime - looking at 2014, he took 10 FGA per game and made 5.1 and he was 3.1/6.2 (50%) on tightly guarded shots. When you count shots inside 10ft though, Jokic is just so much better there.

[Texas Chuck]

How absurd is Jokic that we have posters who aren't sure he isn't better at every aspect of offense than freaking Dirk?

I do think Dirk gets oversimplified and people dismissing his mobility and ball security are wrong to do so.

But Jokic is incredible. Being a better offensive big than Dirk is really hard to achieve. Yet here we are and here he has.

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[Cavsfansince84]

Getting to the rim and drawing ft's is a big thing. Esepcially in some of those playoffs runs Dirk was attacking a lot and avging 10+ fta's. Dirk is also a better 3pt shooter(by over 3% for career).

[O_6]

#1: Dirk moved MUCH better than Jokic
I think maybe all those old Dirk years at the end made people forget the kind of athlete he was in his prime. Dirk was a legit 7ft, with a strong frame, and could really run the floor when he was younger. He was one of the better transition bigs in the league when he hit his prime. Take a look at where Dirk ranked in terms of FastBreak Points from 2000-2016.

Fast Break Scoring rank
2000: 22nd
2001: 3rd
2002: 7th
2003: 14th
2004: 19th
2005: 21st
2006: 28th
2007: 74th
2008: 46th
2009: 45th
2010: 48th
2011: 80th
2012: 87th
2013: 159th
2014: 109th
2015: 111th
2016: 140th

This where Jokic ranks in Fast Break scoring since 2017...

Fast Break Scoring rank
2017: 162nd
2018: 179th
2019: 244th
2020: 245th
2021: 186th
2022: 62nd
2023: 125th

So I think we can clearly see at least one area where Dirk had an edge, transition scoring. Jokic seems to have improved in that area over the last couple of years (losing some weight helped?), getting up to 62nd in 2022 and at 125th this year. But prior to that, he didn't finish better than 162nd in the league.

Dirk had a 7 year stretch from 2000-06 where he ranked 28th or better every single season. 4 seasons where he finished Top 20 in Fastbreak points. 3rd in '01, 7th in '02, clearly peaking as one of the very best transition players in the league those years. And still staying respectable in transition points until his body started breaking down.

#2: Dirk emphasized the mid-range much more than Jokic

Both Jokic and Dirk have excellent levels of efficiency when it comes to the mid-range, however Dirk's volume is on a completely different level making it hard to compare. Dirk ranked 34th in Mid-Range Field Goals Made in 2001, and he ranked 9th in Mid-Range FG% among the top 100 players who took the most mid-range FGAs. This is where he ranks through his prime...

2001: 34th in FGM -- 9th in FG% (among Top 100 in FGA)
2002: 18th in FGM -- 4th in FG%
2003: 11th in FGM -- 25th in FG%
2004: 3rd in FGM -- 7th in FG%
2005: 1st in FGM -- 37th in FG%
2006: 2nd in FGM -- 5th in FG%
2007: 1st in FGM -- 4th in FG%
2008: 1st in FGM -- 4th in FG%
2009: 1st in FGM -- 3rd in FG%
2010: 1st in FGM -- 9th in FG%
2011: 1st in FGM -- 1st in FG%
2012: 1st in FGM -- 8th in FG%
2013: 9th in FGM -- 7th in FG%
2014: 2nd in FGM -- 2nd in FG%
2015: 2nd in FGM -- 6th in FG%
2016: 2nd in FGM -- 16th in FG%

You can see how it differs from the transition points chart for Dirk. As he got older, he simply mastered the mid-range shot and became the best in the league at it during his prime. Check out that stretch from '07 to '12, 6 straight years with the most Mid-Range FG's made while being Top 10 in FG% every year among those who qualified. Leading the year in both mid-range FGM and FG% in his 2011 championship season.

During the 13 year span from '04-'16; Dirk finished 1st in FGM 7x, 2nd in FGM 4x, 3rd in FGM 1x, and 9th another time. He finished Top 10 in FG% among those who qualified 11/13 of those years. Just an insane combination of volume and efficiency lasting over a decade. This is how Jokic compares to Dirk since 2017...

2017: 68th in FGM -- 2nd in FG%
2018: 47th in FGM -- 13th in FG%
2019: 72nd in FGM -- 61st in FG%
2020: 17th in FGM -- 25th in FG%
2021: 13th in FGM -- 5th in FG%
2022: 44th in FGM -- 4th in FG%
2023: 61st in FGM -- 3rd in FG%

So as mentioned above, the volume is just not even in the same stratosphere. Jokic really does not emphasize the mid-range jumper as much as you'd think. He's only ranked in the Top 40 in FGM two times, in '20 and '21.

Jokic's efficiency these last handful of years from mid-range has crept to Dirk-levels though. Jokic has become a truly great mid-range shooter, but I just can't wrap my head around putting him on the same tier as Dirk due to the massive massive difference in volume from that range.

For example, do you guys consider Jokic to be as good of a mid-range shooter as Durant? This is where Durant ranks his past 6 full seasons

2016: 9th in FGM -- 1st in FG%
2017: 36th in FGM -- 10th in FG%
2018: 6th in FGM -- 7th in FG%
2019: 2nd in FGM -- 1st in FG%
2022: 2nd in FGM -- 2nd in FG%
2023: 2nd in FGM -- 1st in FG%

See, now that looks like a guy that I can compare to Dirk in terms of Mid-Range shooting. He checks off both the volume and efficiency boxes. I know Jokic is money in the mid-range, but I would not put him on the same level as Durant or Dirk in this area.

Jokic is one of a kind with his innate touch, never seen anyone just flip the ball from 6ft into the hoop like him. He's definitely far far far better than Dirk in that short-range, he might be the best ever in that regard. But as a pure mid-range jump shooter, he's not quite Dirk or Durant.

TLDR: Dirk had a small but clear edge in shooting but a big edge in utilizing the mid-range area. He was the easy #1 mid-range scorer in the league during his prime, whereas Jokic is in the Top 5 mix but clearly behind Durant.

Dirk was also much more mobile than Jokic, which benefited him on both ends but especially offense. Dirk was called a 7ft SG in his early 20s because he'd be moving off ball, he'd be attacking off of a face-up, he'd be running the floor hard, etc. Dirk being significantly more mobile on top of being a better shooter also allowed him to be a more diverse type of shot-maker than Jokic, as he was much more adept at shooting on the move.

I think Jokic has surpassed Peak Dirk. The passing edge is too monumental, and the rest of his offensive game speaks for itself. But Dirk wasn't just "Jokic without the passing" as some people think. He was a different kind of athlete and player. Better shooter and more athletic.